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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: NVFOA_Ump on October 20, 2019, 11:43:46 AM
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4th quarter home team, who is trailing by 2 scores, has just scored and we have the expected "onside kick" coming. K kicker hits the ball dead in the middle and it goes knuckling toward team R along the ground where it takes a single high hop at about the 48 yard line, bounces off the hands of a leaping R player, a clear muff, and is recovered while still airborne by a team K player at the K-48. Signal is team K 1st down at the 48 and the teams start substituting when we've got a very late flag. The late flag is followed by an extended conference including all 5 officials where it's decided that since the "high bounce" was the "1st one" this was an illegal kick. Penalty is enforced and K re-kicks.
Opinions on this?
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What was the thought process which resulted in the conclusion?
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4th quarter home team, who is trailing by 2 scores, has just scored and we have the expected "onside kick" coming. K kicker hits the ball dead in the middle and it goes knuckling toward team R along the ground where it takes a single high hop at about the 48 yard line, bounces off the hands of a leaping R player, a clear muff, and is recovered while still airborne by a team K player at the K-48. Signal is team K 1st down at the 48 and the teams start substituting when we've got a very late flag. The late flag is followed by an extended conference including all 5 officials where it's decided that since the "high bounce" was the "1st one" this was an illegal kick. Penalty is enforced and K re-kicks.
Opinions on this?
How was this an illegal kick? Nothing you described equates to anything remotely resembling either an illegal kick or illegally kicking the ball. The only rule that includes anything about the ball striking the ground is the solely related to Kick Catch Interference. But, since Team B touched ball, KCI is no longer a factor. Was this a game using NCAA rules?
Robert
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What was the thought process which resulted in the conclusion?
the discussion was centered around the idea that the "first bounce" could not be higher than head level. In this case, although the ball slithered along the ground for 7-8 yards before the "first bounce" the first obvious bounce was more than head high.
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the discussion was centered around the idea that the "first bounce" could not be higher than head level. In this case, although the ball slithered along the ground for 7-8 yards before the "first bounce" the first obvious bounce was more than head high.
It sounds that someone has an idea that they should be disavowed of, at least under NCAA and IFAF rules. (I make no comment on NFHS simply as I don't know that rule set.)
This play is K's ball, 1st and 10 at the spot of the recovery.
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Was this a game using NCAA rules?
No, but it was a mixed crew (2 NCAA college officials, 3 NFHS high school officials - I posted this in both places). I believe that there was significant confusion over the differences in the rules and the late flag which came from a HS official was under both codes incorrect IMO. This was discussed in the post game meeting but there was no clear resolution. It was not an ideal situation. :(
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the discussion was centered around the idea that the "first bounce" could not be higher than head level.
Seriously? Somewhere, under some set of rules, there is a rule that relates to how high a kicked ball bounces? Whoeeee. Glad I don't work those rules.
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I'm really surprised that college level officials have trouble with this POST-GAME. I can understand confusion on the field, we've all been there, but the relevant rule is very clear.
"During a free kick a player of the receiving team in position to receive the ball has the same kick-catch and fair-catch protection whether the ball is kicked directly off the tee or is immediately driven to the ground, strikes the ground once and goes into the air in the manner of the ball kicked directly off the tee."
In the OP, the ball is NOT kicked immediately to the ground and it does NOT go into the air in the manner of the ball kicked directly off the tee. Thus, it does NOT apply, and there can not be any KCI. And, like Elvis said, there is nothing in rule 2-16 to make this an illegal kick.
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You asked for "opinions on this," but the question of whether or not there's an "illegal kick" penalty in the NCAA rule book for a kick bouncing too soon or too high... is not a matter of opinion.
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No, but it was a mixed crew (2 NCAA college officials, 3 NFHS high school officials - I posted this in both places). I believe that there was significant confusion over the differences in the rules and the late flag which came from a HS official was under both codes incorrect IMO. This was discussed in the post game meeting but there was no clear resolution. It was not an ideal situation. :(
The NCAA and NFHS rules are very similar in regards to the pop-up kick. The major difference in NCAA is the ball is still live and treated as if it hadn't touched the ground as it relates to fair catch/receiving team protection. NFHS is dead as soon as it's recognized and enforced as a dead ball foul. This should be an easy transition for your NCAA officials.