Post by: Ralph Damren on November 01, 2019, 09:22:45 AM
(1) LOS 50, 3 & 8;
(2) A1 is tackled by PFFM @ B's 42 ^flag;
(3) A1 then announces : "B1 is a @#$%^&* " ^flag
(4) after penalties enforced, A's coach loudly questions all z^ z^ z^ z^ z^ (5-man crew) eyesight. :puke: ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag
Down ,distance and announcement over PA (you're mic'ed)
.......Enjoy your Friday Night Lights, y'all. tiphat:
Post by: dammitbobby on November 01, 2019, 09:52:30 AM
There are multiple fouls on the play.
Personal foul, facemask, by player X, 15 yards from the end of the run. (ball would be spotted at B27)
Unsportsmanlike conduct, player A1. 15 yard penalty. (this would put the ball back at the B42, 1st and 10)
*assuming ball was spotted right now*
Unsportsmanlike conduct, Team A. 15 yard penalty. (this puts the ball at the A47, 1st and 25.)
Ball will be spotted on the A47 1st and 25.'
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 01, 2019, 09:52:58 AM
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Post by: PABJNR on November 01, 2019, 10:06:53 AM
1st and 10 from A43, 25 second playclock, RFP on my chop.
Calhoun, consider not announcing "we have" and replace with there were. I had a senior official mention to me once, it just sounds better to me. Just mentioned for consideration.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 01, 2019, 10:19:28 AM
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Post by: CalhounLJ on November 01, 2019, 10:21:11 AM
Duly noted. Thanks. I’m a seminary graduate used to writing academic papers. They frown on the phrase “there were.” Of course, they also frown on writing in first person as well. Thanks again it’s great advice.
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Post by: Morningrise on November 01, 2019, 11:50:28 AM
I always state up front that there will be multiple fouls in the announcement.
I like to say "X yard penalty from the {spot of the foul | previous spot | end of the run | end of the kick}" for live-ball fouls, but for dead-ball fouls I just say "X yard penalty."
Always separate live-ball from dead-ball fouls in the announcement, because they aren't offsetting and sometimes it matters for explaining why one team is getting a first down suddenly.
Good to clarify that it's 1/10 not 1/25.
One thing I haven't seen yet is - You have to give the number of a player committing a UNS. I always say {offense | defense} before, not after, the uniform number.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 01, 2019, 11:59:47 AM
Lots of good practices so far.Not according to NFHS. As I understand it, announcing the number is optional but not required.
I always state up front that there will be multiple fouls in the announcement.
I like to say "X yard penalty from the {spot of the foul | previous spot | end of the run | end of the kick}" for live-ball fouls, but for dead-ball fouls I just say "X yard penalty."
Always separate live-ball from dead-ball fouls in the announcement, because they aren't offsetting and sometimes it matters for explaining why one team is getting a first down suddenly.
Good to clarify that it's 1/10 not 1/25.
One thing I haven't seen yet is - You have to give the number of a player committing a UNS. I always say {offense | defense} before, not after, the uniform number.
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Post by: HLinNC on November 01, 2019, 01:32:59 PM
The 2018-19 manual states "The number of the player who committed the foul may be announced." As I learned in law class, big difference between may and shall. NC still prohibits it as best I recall.
Post by: Ralph Damren on November 04, 2019, 07:25:52 AM
Post by: ncwingman on November 04, 2019, 07:39:33 AM
Duly noted. Thanks. I’m a seminary graduate used to writing academic papers. They frown on the phrase “there were.” Of course, they also frown on writing in first person as well. Thanks again it’s great advice.
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Lets put it in super awkward scientific writing style -- third person, past tense, passive voice:
"Upon the end of run was administered a 15 yard penalty due to a personal foul for grasping the facemask by the defense"
Post by: bossman72 on November 04, 2019, 08:24:44 AM
You have to give the number of a player committing a UNS.
The 2018-19 manual states "The number of the player who committed the foul may be announced." As I learned in law class, big difference between may and shall. NC still prohibits it as best I recall.
We are not allowed to announce numbers in PA. Why? I don't know.
Post by: PABJNR on November 04, 2019, 10:39:40 AM
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Post by: CalhounLJ on November 04, 2019, 12:22:48 PM
Lets put it in super awkward scientific writing style -- third person, past tense, passive voice:Lol. Believe it or not, that reads normal.
"Upon the end of run was administered a 15 yard penalty due to a personal foul for grasping the facemask by the defense"
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Post by: ncwingman on November 04, 2019, 01:08:44 PM
NC still prohibits it as best I recall.
I was just reminded of an "incident" in a game earlier this season. Home team is winning and driving to run out the clock late in the 4th (like <4 minutes). They get into a 4th and short situation and line up to go for it -- everybody and their mother knows it's a hard count, no snap, then a timeout.
Of course, it "works" and a defender jumps across the neutral zone.
The PA announcer can clearly see it was #55 for the visitors, so as the penalty is marked off he announces, "And let's all thank #55, Steve Smith, for that first down!" (The white hat has no microphone, so he's not announcing anything publicly) There was no obvious response by any players or coaches, but it really rubbed me the wrong way. If the visiting coach had raised a stink about it, I would have had to agree with him -- not sure what I could do, but I would agree with him.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 04, 2019, 01:17:19 PM
The 2018-19 manual states "The number of the player who committed the foul may be announced." As I learned in law class, big difference between may and shall. NC still prohibits it as best I recall.
Why does announcing the number of a fouling player seem so important? Granted, specifically advising the respective Head Coach of the identity of the player committing a foul, offering the opportunity for remedial corrective attention makes sense, but what purpose, or benefit, does identifying a player, who has made a mistake, to the general public in attendance, accomplish?
Post by: bossman72 on November 04, 2019, 01:29:25 PM
Why does announcing the number of a fouling player seem so important? Granted, specifically advising the respective Head Coach of the identity of the player committing a foul, offering the opportunity for remedial corrective attention makes sense, but what purpose, or benefit, does identifying a player, who has made a mistake, to the general public in attendance, accomplish?
Informational purposes for coaches, fans in attendance, press box personnel, and media. Eliminates confusion on certain situations and lets the media piece together what happened if there is a TV game.
Post by: Ralph Damren on November 04, 2019, 01:54:13 PM
Why does announcing the number of a fouling player seem so important? Granted, specifically advising the respective Head Coach of the identity of the player committing a foul, offering the opportunity for remedial corrective attention makes sense, but what purpose, or benefit, does identifying a player, who has made a mistake, to the general public in attendance, accomplish?IMHO, it sounds more certain than "someone was holding" ;D. Several years ago, a play ended with a racial slur uttered by the defenders. I tossed ^flag, called time and requested their coach on the field. I informed him of what I had heard and asked him to address his team that it wouldn't be tolerated. He peered at his team and said : " 'Bubba', 'Tugboat' and 'Lefty', COME WITH ME >:( ". A couple of plays later , Tugboat & Lefty returned - Bubba wasn't seen again. When the game ended, I was approached by their coach (who lost) and he said : "Thanks, ref, for allowing me to teach life lessons. The guilty player confessed, which allowed his two buddies to play. That word will never be heard from my team again."
Moral of story : Coaches usually know the potential troublemakers and the like. If you can confirm it, it gives him more ammo to take action.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 04, 2019, 02:31:48 PM
Should " media (believe it necessary to) piece together what happened if there is a TV game, they have appropriate resources and contacts, aside from game officials, to develop those details.
Post by: Derek Teigen on November 04, 2019, 03:08:25 PM
I was just reminded of an "incident" in a game earlier this season. Home team is winning and driving to run out the clock late in the 4th (like <4 minutes). They get into a 4th and short situation and line up to go for it -- everybody and their mother knows it's a hard count, no snap, then a timeout.
Of course, it "works" and a defender jumps across the neutral zone.
The PA announcer can clearly see it was #55 for the visitors, so as the penalty is marked off he announces, "And let's all thank #55, Steve Smith, for that first down!" (The white hat has no microphone, so he's not announcing anything publicly) There was no obvious response by any players or coaches, but it really rubbed me the wrong way. If the visiting coach had raised a stink about it, I would have had to agree with him -- not sure what I could do, but I would agree with him.
that would rub me the wrong way too and if I were the referee I would ask that the p.a. announcer be removed from the press box and not start the game until that has happened.
Post by: brettjr2005 on November 04, 2019, 03:32:21 PM
Absolutely agree, sharing pertinent information and details with a Coach can be beneficial to the overall management and control of a team, and a game. However, WE ARE NOT responsible for sharing, otherwise non-essential details, especially those of a potentially critical, player personal nature, with "fans in attendance, press box personnel, and media".
Should " media (believe it necessary to) piece together what happened if there is a TV game, they have appropriate resources and contacts, aside from game officials, to develop those details.
In my experience, it just makes everything easier. You don't have to relay the number across the field to the coach, it sounds more like "what we hear on Saturday and Sunday" which gives us more legitimacy in the eyes of the players, coaches, and fans, and it comes across as more certain and exact to announce that "we saw this specific guy do this bad thing" as opposed to "someone on that team did this bad thing."
Post by: Magician on November 04, 2019, 04:57:51 PM
In my experience, it just makes everything easier. You don't have to relay the number across the field to the coach, it sounds more like "what we hear on Saturday and Sunday" which gives us more legitimacy in the eyes of the players, coaches, and fans, and it comes across as more certain and exact to announce that "we saw this specific guy do this bad thing" as opposed to "someone on that team did this bad thing."
If someone is keeping a penalty report for the crew it makes it easier for them to get it as well. There really is no compelling reason to NOT do it other than we haven't in the past.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 04, 2019, 08:00:15 PM
In my experience, it just makes everything easier. You don't have to relay the number across the field to the coach, it sounds more like "what we hear on Saturday and Sunday" which gives us more legitimacy in the eyes of the players, coaches, and fans, and it comes across as more certain and exact to announce that "we saw this specific guy do this bad thing" as opposed to "someone on that team did this bad thing."
You might consider, NFHS games are usually played before a predominantly LOCAL audience, many of whom may be personally familiar with players, as opposed to those who attend "Saturday & Sunday" games, and have no compelling, or constructive, interest or need to know the identity of which student athlete is guilty of making each mistake.
If personal legitimacy is a serious personal concern, public exposure of player mistakes is not likely to eliminate that concern, either for players, coaches or fans (although, what "fans" conclude is, or at least should be, beyond our relevant concerns.) Although as previously suggested, identifying the guilty player to his Head Coach, often has beneficial remedial instructive value.
Achieving a perception of certainty or confidence, by players and/or coaches, that the "Call made" was the correct call, is earned far more by consistent performance than publicly announcing which player may be responsible for each mistake.
Post by: Magician on November 04, 2019, 10:58:55 PM
You might consider, NFHS games are usually played before a predominantly LOCAL audience, many of whom may be personally familiar with players, as opposed to those who attend "Saturday & Sunday" games, and have no compelling, or constructive, interest or need to know the identity of which student athlete is guilty of making each mistake.
If personal legitimacy is a serious personal concern, public exposure of player mistakes is not likely to eliminate that concern, either for players, coaches or fans (although, what "fans" conclude is, or at least should be, beyond our relevant concerns.) Although as previously suggested, identifying the guilty player to his Head Coach, often has beneficial remedial instructive value.
Achieving a perception of certainty or confidence, by players and/or coaches, that the "Call made" was the correct call, is earned far more by consistent performance than publicly announcing which player may be responsible for each mistake.
Let me guess, you were opposed to replacing leather helmets with hard, plastic helmets. You seem to oppose every possible change to the rules and come up with wordy, highlighted, italicized explanations that ultimate say "I don't like change."
Post by: PABJNR on November 05, 2019, 05:15:24 AM
You might consider, NFHS games are usually played before a predominantly LOCAL audience, many of whom may be personally familiar with players, as opposed to those who attend "Saturday & Sunday" games, and have no compelling, or constructive, interest or need to know the identity of which student athlete is guilty of making each mistake.Until you get to basketball season, then announce away.
If personal legitimacy is a serious personal concern, public exposure of player mistakes is not likely to eliminate that concern, either for players, coaches or fans (although, what "fans" conclude is, or at least should be, beyond our relevant concerns.) Although as previously suggested, identifying the guilty player to his Head Coach, often has beneficial remedial instructive value.
Achieving a perception of certainty or confidence, by players and/or coaches, that the "Call made" was the correct call, is earned far more by consistent performance than publicly announcing which player may be responsible for each mistake.
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Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 05, 2019, 08:20:42 AM
Let me guess, you were opposed to replacing leather helmets with hard, plastic helmets. You seem to oppose every possible change to the rules and come up with wordy, highlighted, italicized explanations that ultimate say "I don't like change."Actually, I don't have a problem with "Change" in general, however when I can't see ANY benefit or purpose to a suggested change, as well as some clear negatives, I try and seek clarification, hoping I might learn something. Apparently you have nothing worthwhile to offer to help me appreciate the reasoning, other than, "it's done at other levels".
If your concern is improving your TV presentation skills, you might consider practicing in front of a mirror, in anticipation of the opportunity ever presenting itself. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" has little to do with sensible upgrading for good cause.
Post by: Magician on November 05, 2019, 09:21:40 AM
Actually, I don't have a problem with "Change" in general, however when I can't see ANY benefit or purpose to a suggested change, as well as some clear negatives, I try and seek clarification, hoping I might learn something. Apparently you have nothing worthwhile to offer to help me appreciate the reasoning, other than, "it's done at other levels".
If your concern is improving your TV presentation skills, you might consider practicing in front of a mirror, in anticipation of the opportunity ever presenting itself. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" has little to do with sensible upgrading for good cause.
Spoken like someone is adamantly opposed to change. If they aren't convinced 100% that the change is absolutely necessary they oppose it all costs. Announcing numbers is helpful to everyone involved in the game. Is it absolutely necessary? No. We survive without it. But it's helpful when it's used.
You opposing this because it's not absolutely obvious 100% needed would be the same as me saying I need absolute 100% convincing to consider not changing it. That's a ridiculous request. You can have an opinion that you prefer not announcing numbers and that's fine. But to get that adamant that you go so far as to highlight, bold, and add a lot of extra words that this change is not needed is extreme. It's a different mindset to ask "why shouldn't we?" rather than "why should we?" It's the difference between someone who is open to change and someone is very resistant to change. You have to admit you are the latter.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 05, 2019, 09:57:09 AM
It's the difference between someone who is open to change and someone is very resistant to change. You have to admit you are the latter.
No argument. If you can provide a specific benefit, relevant reason or obvious purpose for a change, your argument carries a lot more persuasion. You have yet to do so. I don't need 100%, but there should be SOMETHING suggesting what is accomplished by the change. When you come up with something meaningful, I'll be happy to reconsider my assessment.
You might reconsider the potential negative effects, somewhat unique, to the Interscholastic level we're dealing with. Until then, "If it ain't broke and working just fine, I'm not looking to fix anything".
Post by: bossman72 on November 05, 2019, 10:12:55 AM
Absolutely agree, sharing pertinent information and details with a Coach can be beneficial to the overall management and control of a team, and a game. However, WE ARE NOT responsible for sharing, otherwise non-essential details, especially those of a potentially critical, player personal nature, with "fans in attendance, press box personnel, and media".
I disagree, as it's absolutely our responsibility. Why give signals to the press box to begin with, if it wasn't our responsibility? Just verbally tell the coaches we had holding and move on, right? Apparently they're the only ones in the entire stadium that need to know anything, according to you.
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Should " media (believe it necessary to) piece together what happened if there is a TV game, they have appropriate resources and contacts, aside from game officials, to develop those details.
Who? Who is going to read our minds about what we called? Please tell me specifically who these "appropriate resources" are.
A great example would be a pick play that happens early in the route. The QB then throws deep to the WR and we call OPI and don't announce a number. The TV then does a replay iso shot on the WR that caught the ball and he barely does anything that would warrant a "push off" OPI and the announcers give a polite groan/chuckle like "that wasn't anything". Meanwhile, we called it on someone else. Even without TV, the fans would assume we called it on the WR who caught the pass and would be angry because he didn't do anything that would warrant a foul.
If we announce a number, everyone can see that #88 caught the pass and we announced #19 as the guilty party, then they know we didn't call some weak sauce push off and TV might be able to find the pick that we called. This greatly enhances our credibility. Leaves no doubt.
Another example that I witnessed when observing a high school game the other week.
DT #70 of the visiting team committed a rough personal foul earlier in the 4th qtr. Then on one play, he facemasked the helmet off of the runner and after the play was kind of giving the business to the person who was blocking him. Everyone's second flag went up after the play and everyone in the pressbox assumed #70 was ejected when the R gave the PF signal and UNS signal and DQ signal against the defense. Turns out, they ejected #20 for taking the runner's helmet and running off with it and taunting the other team with it like it was a battle trophy while using vulgar language.
Next series, #70 comes back in the game and the home coaches are going nuts in the press box saying he came back in the game (because everyone thought they ejected him and not #20). Announcing the number would remove all doubt and ambiguity here.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 05, 2019, 11:01:26 AM
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Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 05, 2019, 11:29:29 AM
I disagree, as it's absolutely our responsibility. Why give signals to the press box to begin with, if it wasn't our responsibility? Just verbally tell the coaches we had holding and move on, right? Apparently they're the only ones in the entire stadium that need to know anything, according to you.
Who? Who is going to read our minds about what we called? Please tell me specifically who these "appropriate resources" are.
Actually, those "Resource decisions" are the responsibility of the network televising your High School football games, and I wouldn't be surprised if the networks declined providing such level of resources, for that level of broadcasts, as such (potential) detail is simply unnecessary for general viewing pleasure, at that level.
Considering the likely small percentage of HS football games actually televised, in most areas, the informational necessities you suggest are, at best, minimal. However, as most (if not all) HS football games draw intense "local" attention to games played primarily my minor age players, specifically identifying players making mistakes (which may in some instances may have significant negative effect on the (Local) viewing audience) is unnecessary and potentially counterproductive.
Signalling penalties, and other pertinent, necessary information relative to the contest is indeed beneficial to the general viewing benefit of spectators, however specifically, and publicly, identifying the specific players making those mistakes is totally UNNECESSARY to the flow, or understanding of the game, and may well create opportunity to invade the privacy of student athlete's (often minors) privacy.
The NFHS has made this decision optional, so it is YOUR choice whether appeasing a minute "potential" of viewers, with normally unavailable informational detail, is worth risking potential subsequent bullying, intimidation and ridicule of minor student athletes in an age where such abhorrent behavior, subject to constant enhancement of Social Media is steadily rising.
Considering whether the "ends justify the means" seems appropriate.
Post by: brettjr2005 on November 05, 2019, 11:54:37 AM
is worth risking potential subsequent bullying, intimidation and ridicule of minor student athletes in an age where such abhorrent behavior, subject to constant enhancement of Social Media is steadily rising.
Holy hyperbole. You're clearly willing to die on this ant hill.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 05, 2019, 11:58:45 AM
Holy hyperbole. You're clearly willing to die on this ant hill.
Actually, it's never been much of a threat, for the past 100 (or so) years, it's really been easy to simply step around.
Post by: bossman72 on November 05, 2019, 12:21:55 PM
Actually, those "Resource decisions" are the responsibility of the network televising your High School football games, and I wouldn't be surprised if the networks declined providing such level of resources, for that level of broadcasts, as such (potential) detail is simply unnecessary for general viewing pleasure, at that level.
You still haven't identified who these resources are or if they exist or exactly how they would get such information to the booth without discussing it with an official.
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specifically identifying players making mistakes (which may in some instances may have significant negative effect on the (Local) viewing audience) is unnecessary and potentially counterproductive.
I gave you 2 examples where it would be useful.
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and may well create opportunity to invade the privacy of student athlete's (often minors) privacy.
What in the blue hell are you talking about? Privacy? This was done in front of thousands of spectators! What is private about that?
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The NFHS has made this decision optional, so it is YOUR choice whether appeasing a minute "potential" of viewers, with normally unavailable informational detail, is worth risking potential subsequent bullying, intimidation and ridicule of minor student athletes in an age where such abhorrent behavior, subject to constant enhancement of Social Media is steadily rising.
Very highly doubt that would happen. I don't even see it now for obvious things like dropped passes or interceptions thrown or missed tackles.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 05, 2019, 04:25:46 PM
You still haven't identified who these resources are or if they exist or exactly how they would get such information to the booth without discussing it with an official. I gave you 2 examples where it would be useful. What in the blue hell are you talking about? Privacy? This was done in front of thousands of spectators! What is private about that? Very highly doubt that would happen. I don't even see it now for obvious things like dropped passes or interceptions thrown or missed tackles.
Apparently, we see the possible negative effects of this issue differently. Sometimes that's the best that can be accomplished. Fortunately, we each have the option, and the ability to respond as we consider correct. Since you asked...
"You still haven't identified who these resources are or if they exist or exactly how they would get such information to the booth without discussing it with an official.": Of course not because they don't exist, and doubtfully ever will, because it's not necessary nor worth the effort, cost or bother to provide such resources.
"I gave you 2 examples where it would be useful.": Similar to "beauty", USEFUL is in the eye of the beholder.
"What in the blue hell are you talking about? Privacy? This was done in front of thousands of spectators! What is private about that?" : Actually nothing, until someone decides it's somehow necessary (or a neat idea) to publicly IDENTIFY the guilty party for EACH foul, which you still haven't provided any solid reason for being NECESSARY.
"Very highly doubt that would happen. I don't even see it now for obvious things like dropped passes or interceptions thrown or missed tackles.": BUT, there are times that even "doubtful" things happen, and cause problems that create consequences that were unanticipated. The fact that apparently specific identification announcement is not necessary for dropped passes, interceptions or missed tackles underscores such identification IS NOT NECESSARY, or improves the game.
Post by: PABJNR on November 05, 2019, 05:10:07 PM
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Post by: Magician on November 05, 2019, 05:20:29 PM
Apparently, we see the possible negative effects of this issue differently. Sometimes that's the best that can be accomplished. Fortunately, we each have the option, and the ability to respond as we consider correct. Since you asked...
"You still haven't identified who these resources are or if they exist or exactly how they would get such information to the booth without discussing it with an official.": Of course not because they don't exist, and doubtfully ever will, because it's not necessary nor worth the effort, cost or bother to provide such resources.
"I gave you 2 examples where it would be useful.": Similar to "beauty", USEFUL is in the eye of the beholder.
"What in the blue hell are you talking about? Privacy? This was done in front of thousands of spectators! What is private about that?" : Actually nothing, until someone decides it's somehow necessary (or a neat idea) to publicly IDENTIFY the guilty party for EACH foul, which you still haven't provided any solid reason for being NECESSARY.
"Very highly doubt that would happen. I don't even see it now for obvious things like dropped passes or interceptions thrown or missed tackles.": BUT, there are times that even "doubtful" things happen, and cause problems that create consequences that were unanticipated. The fact that apparently specific identification announcement is not necessary for dropped passes, interceptions or missed tackles underscores such identification IS NOT NECESSARY, or improves the game.
I love how you keep proving my point for me and don't even realize it. Several people have provided you a variety of legitimate reasons to allow numbers to be announced, but your answer boils down to "we haven't done it in the past and don't need to do it in the future." Of course now you've added that it's an invasion of privacy and a possible threat to the person identified.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 05, 2019, 06:33:13 PM
I love how you keep proving my point for me and don't even realize it. Several people have provided you a variety of legitimate reasons to allow numbers to be announced, but your answer boils down to "we haven't done it in the past and don't need to do it in the future." Of course now you've added that it's an invasion of privacy and a possible threat to the person identified.
Apparently Magician, you may have inadvertently overlooked the first, and perhaps most important part, part of my previous response. I'll highlight it here, for your contemplation; "Apparently, we see the possible negative effects of this issue differently. Sometimes that's the best that can be accomplished. Fortunately, we each have the option, and the ability to respond as we consider correct".
In addition to your assessment that, "your answer boils down to "we haven't done it in the past and don't need to do it in the future." my position includes a long standing realization and concern, as previously stated, that NFHS Rules are designed for INTERSCHOLASTIC Sports, which usually involve a significant majority of student athletes, as well as supporters and fans, who have yet to reach "maturity".
NFHS Rules generally apply to participants between the ages of 8/10 yrs to upper teens, as opposed to young adult (NCAA) and professional adult (NFL) participants who function at more mature and experience levels. Different Football Rules codes have evolved somewhat differently to accommodate these inherent differences, unique to their participants.
Please excuse my hesitation to accept any of the "variety of reasons" (thus far suggested) to allow numbers, and the personal identify of players, to be publicly announced and called to attention, in the NFHS environment, as anywhere near "Legitimate", or more importantly, "Necessary" or beneficial to the game, or it's participants.
Perhaps rather than requiring justifications to prevent this change, focus should be concentrated on providing necessity, or convincing reason, for adopting it, along with existing potential, and relevant, consequences.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 05, 2019, 06:33:27 PM
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Post by: bossman72 on November 05, 2019, 07:24:49 PM
I love how you keep proving my point for me and don't even realize it. Several people have provided you a variety of legitimate reasons to allow numbers to be announced, but your answer boils down to "we haven't done it in the past and don't need to do it in the future." Of course now you've added that it's an invasion of privacy and a possible threat to the person identified.
Essentially:
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/news_feeds/icons/mobile/000/019/234/3ad.jpg)
Post by: JasonTX on November 05, 2019, 07:47:34 PM
Why does announcing the number of a fouling player seem so important? Granted, specifically advising the respective Head Coach of the identity of the player committing a foul, offering the opportunity for remedial corrective attention makes sense, but what purpose, or benefit, does identifying a player, who has made a mistake, to the general public in attendance, accomplish?
What does it hurt to announce it? We announce it and the game moves along quicker than having to relay all the information to the coach.
Post by: bama_stripes on November 05, 2019, 08:24:13 PM
Your arguments about “privacy” and “embarrassment of minors” would carry a lot more weight if we weren’t required to identify fouling players in NFHS basketball games.
Post by: ilyazhito on November 06, 2019, 01:32:05 AM
Post by: Magician on November 06, 2019, 07:05:49 AM
Apparently Magician, you may have inadvertently overlooked the first, and perhaps most important part, part of my previous response. I'll highlight it here, for your contemplation; "Apparently, we see the possible negative effects of this issue differently. Sometimes that's the best that can be accomplished. Fortunately, we each have the option, and the ability to respond as we consider correct".
In addition to your assessment that, "your answer boils down to "we haven't done it in the past and don't need to do it in the future." my position includes a long standing realization and concern, as previously stated, that NFHS Rules are designed for INTERSCHOLASTIC Sports, which usually involve a significant majority of student athletes, as well as supporters and fans, who have yet to reach "maturity".
NFHS Rules generally apply to participants between the ages of 8/10 yrs to upper teens, as opposed to young adult (NCAA) and professional adult (NFL) participants who function at more mature and experience levels. Different Football Rules codes have evolved somewhat differently to accommodate these inherent differences, unique to their participants.
Please excuse my hesitation to accept any of the "variety of reasons" (thus far suggested) to allow numbers, and the personal identify of players, to be publicly announced and called to attention, in the NFHS environment, as anywhere near "Legitimate", or more importantly, "Necessary" or beneficial to the game, or it's participants.
Perhaps rather than requiring justifications to prevent this change, focus should be concentrated on providing necessity, or convincing reason, for adopting it, along with existing potential, and relevant, consequences.
It's optional for states to do it. The state could require it only for varsity games or any high school games. Our state has no jurisdiction over middle school or youth games so it would be up to those organizations if they wanted to do it.
It's hard for 8-10 year olds to understand what it means to line up as a back or lineman (anyone who has worked that age no this to be true!!) so we shouldn't have a rule requiring linemen to be breaking the waist of the snapper or backs to be completely behind the waist of the nearest lineman. That's too hard for the 8-years to understand and doesn't really apply to them so let's get rid of the rule. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds. There are many rules that are applied differently at lower levels to adjust for their ability or for game management (i.e. clock rules).
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 06, 2019, 08:02:18 AM
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Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 06, 2019, 08:52:49 AM
Until you get to basketball season, then announce away.
Basketball is a great sport, fun to play, watch and challenging to officiate. There are some game management similarities to football, but each game is unique to it'sown specific necessities. Both games suffer, and deal with penalties but in very different, unique ways. Both involve and depend, on the consistent use of balls by participants, but the particular needs of the game dictate the balls are in noticeably different shapes, and are not interchangeable. Such is life.
Sometimes "easier", or just because it's done at different levels is simply not enough of a reason to make universal change. What else do you have? Apparently NFHS has provided that option, so "If the shoe fits", and your Region decides to wear it, Knock yourself out.
Post by: Magician on November 06, 2019, 09:37:02 AM
Not trying to butt in on this conversation, but in reality how big a deal is this? I have no problem announcing a number or flashing it up on the Jumbotron if we had the capability, but neither of those options are available at your average high school football stadium. Just for the sake of clarity, how many of you guys are mic’d on Friday night? I’m guessing the number will be low, especially in the states that do not even have a visible play clock. I may be wrong.
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We have visible play clocks at all our schools but only once or twice per season are we mic'd up. The state finals though are all mic'd because they are held at Lucas Oil Stadium.
Post by: zebrastripes on November 06, 2019, 10:33:44 AM
Al:The PA announcer in most basketball games announces the NAME as well as the number of the player who fouled. Yet I don't hear any basketball people whining about "embarrassment" to the student-athletes. It's always been palpably stupid to me that the R historically wouldn't announce numbers in HS football games. Thankfully that is changing even though some states still don't permit it.
Your arguments about “privacy” and “embarrassment of minors” would carry a lot more weight if we weren’t required to identify fouling players in NFHS basketball games.
There is no reason to withhold this information other than "we've never done it before."
Honestly, I'm done caring what Al's opinions are. It's clear he's opposed to every change that requires him to adapt and then he tries to gloss over it with wordy, overly-formatted replies.
Post by: PABJNR on November 06, 2019, 02:12:06 PM
Basketball is a great sport, fun to play, watch and challenging to officiate. There are some game management similarities to football, but each game is unique to it'sown specific necessities. Both games suffer, and deal with penalties but in very different, unique ways. Both involve and depend, on the consistent use of balls by participants, but the particular needs of the game dictate the balls are in noticeably different shapes, and are not interchangeable. Such is life.
Sometimes "easier", or just because it's done at different levels is simply not enough of a reason to make universal change. What else do you have? Apparently NFHS has provided that option, so "If the shoe fits", and your Region decides to wear it, Knock yourself out.
Wow thanks for letting me know the ball was a different shape in basketball. While both sports use unique inflated rubber of different shapes and sizes and who knows may or may not need to be inflated to different pressure, measured in pounds per square inch. The rational that I have always been advised is that announcing a number of the player who committed a foul in football was not approved because the players are interscholastic an need not be embarrassed.
My point of contention is that it would make more sense if that stance was taken unequivocally across all sports and not inclusive of select extracurricular activities. I am willing to wager that a majority of the participation in boys basketball are by adolescents who also participate in football (and probably understand a different set of balls are required for each said sport) and as such really do not care personally if their number gets announced in one season but not the other.
I just thought it strange, or perhaps ironic, that one interscholastic sport does announce while one does not in some localities.
With respect to the question regarding the necessity to announce a number I think Patches O’Houlihan said it best when asked if something was necessary
Necessary? Is it necessary for me to drink my own urine? No, but I do it anyway because it's sterile and I like the taste. - Patches O’Houlihan
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Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 06, 2019, 03:15:09 PM
I just thought it strange, or perhaps ironic, that one interscholastic sport does announce while one does not in some localities.
With respect to the question regarding the necessity to announce a number I think Patches O’Houlihan said it best when asked if something was necessary
Necessary? Is it necessary for me to drink my own urine? No, but I do it anyway because it's sterile and I like the taste. - Patches O’Houlihan.
Thanks for the warning, I'll be very selective, and careful, should anyone named O'Houlihan offer to buy me a drink.
Perhaps this issue boils down to just how significant, in the greater, overall scheme of things it actually is, what you, or any of us thinks about how a long existing, and widely practiced procedure is handled differently by different sports in the same area.
Our role is to enforce rules created by others, even though (and thankfully) those others sincerely seek and appreciate our input, their decisions often involve factors well beyond our perspective and responsibility. Input, about potential changes, are best directed, through appropriate channels to those who decide Rules.
Post by: js in sc on November 06, 2019, 03:23:36 PM
Post by: brettjr2005 on November 06, 2019, 03:47:42 PM
Not sure comparing football to basketball fouls is a valid comparison. In basketball, the fouls are attributed to the player to count toward his removal from the game. The scorer needs to know who it was. In football, all fouls except USC are against the team, not the player, so announcing them is unnecessary for the playing of the game.
That rebuttal doesn't really hold up. Basketball having announcers announce the offending player and even displaying the number of the offending player on the scoreboard for the whole world to see has nothing to do with the scorer keeping track. It's done for transparency and to keep everyone at the event (players, coaches, team statisticians, fans, etc) informed. I see no reason not to do the same with football.
Post by: Derek Teigen on November 07, 2019, 09:51:10 AM
1. in our association we have some white hats who say the number of the offending player and some who do not.
2. Some times I have called a penalty and I forgot the number of the player or couldn't get the number. It happens and my bad.
3. players have a certain amount of anonymity when they make a mistake because there are so many players running around and falling down...unlike in baseball when a mistake is known by everybody watching.
I don't think it would be bad to announce the number or bad not announce the number. As long as we can report to the coaches the correct information I think that is what is the most important. But the announcer that thanked the player for the 5 yard penalty resulting in a first down was out of line.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 07, 2019, 02:09:43 PM
That rebuttal doesn't really hold up. Basketball having announcers announce the offending player and even displaying the number of the offending player on the scoreboard for the whole world to see has nothing to do with the scorer keeping track. It's done for transparency and to keep everyone at the event (players, coaches, team statisticians, fans, etc) informed. I see no reason not to do the same with football.
Although a universal practice, at all levels of football, determining the number of a player violating a rule (despite a generations old fantasy) is NOT a requirement for penalizing a player. As a constructive courtesy, sharing such detail with the offending player's Head Coach, for possible remedial instructive purposes, has long been a general practice. However, as relates to the game of INTERSCHOLASTIC football, as opposed to other sports or other levels of football, publicly announcing the violators identification serves NO DISCERNIBLE purpose, or provides ANY PRACTICAL or NECESSARY benefit.
Football is a game of constant intense physical intensity and action, that may at times, violate rules and be subject to resentment generating totally inappropriate retaliatory behavior directed against the violator and/or team. Highlighting, the identity of the violator may (and certainly has already) provided the necessary impetus to generate retaliatory behavior, which is prone to instantly expand into and/or create total chaos.
The risk of generating such calamity, far outweighs any minimal, or non-existent benefit thus far suggested.
Post by: zebrastripes on November 08, 2019, 08:46:07 AM
You just don't think so because you're stuck in the past, as usual.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 08, 2019, 10:35:27 AM
It does serve a purpose. Almost every comment on this thread has given you a purpose.
You just don't think so because you're stuck in the past, as usual.
Perhaps the most significant benefit of this site, is what we can learn from sharing each other's experience, knowledge, practical application and judgment. Unfortunately, despite "almost every comment on this thread", I seem unable to grasp any rational purpose, relevant benefit or practical application supporting this practice, at/for the Interscholastic level.
My hope is that someone, with a more astute perspective, would be kind enough to explain some logical, practical purpose, or objective, in providing this detail, so I could better understand some apparent benefit, I have yet to comprehend, beyond "This is what they choose to do at other levels" and "it, somehow, enhances TV viewing and game announcing"
I was hoping someone competent, with a more complete understanding of some potential, necessary benefit, rather than criticize my ignorance, could provide me with the necessary understanding. Might that be YOU, or are you satisfied to just throw rocks?
Post by: Patrick E. on November 11, 2019, 04:53:52 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5phijpb1Hjk
Post by: VALJ on November 12, 2019, 10:07:18 AM
Post by: zebrastripes on December 12, 2019, 06:47:27 PM
The fact that we have some people who believe announcing the number in football shouldn’t be allowed (and the fact that there are states prohibiting it) is laughably stupid.
Post by: Morningrise on December 13, 2019, 03:05:37 PM
Not sure comparing football to basketball fouls is a valid comparison. In basketball, the fouls are attributed to the player to count toward his removal from the game. The scorer needs to know who it was. In football, all fouls except USC are against the team, not the player, so announcing them is unnecessary for the playing of the game.
Which is why my original suggestion, two pages ago, was to announce the number for UNS *only.* Same thing as basketball except you're gone after two instead of five.
Here's a question - when you actually DO disqualify a player, do you reveal his identity THEN, or do you just say "THAT PLAYER is disqualified"?
I mean, I guess as long as it's not a secret to his coach, you CAN keep it a secret from the fans. But I don't think that serves a purpose.
For every other foul, I have no problem with prohibiting the player identification, whether it's to make things easier or spare the guilty player embarrassment. Even NCAA didn't announce numbers, as recently as 20 years ago.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on December 13, 2019, 07:24:25 PM
The fact that we have some people who believe announcing the number in football shouldn’t be allowed (and the fact that there are states prohibiting it) is laughably stupid.
It might be a really helpful assist to explain and educate those (laughably stupid) of us who see no practical purpose or any potential benefit to mimicking other levels of football who choose to announce and identify players violating rules and incurring penalties to spectators to provide some logical, rational or relevant reason, benefit or objective that would improve the game, or be accomplished by announcing and identifying the football players committing fouls.