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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: BetweenTheLines on December 12, 2019, 09:33:30 AM
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If there is holding called on R during a free kick according to 10.4.5d the basic spot is the succeeding spot (R's 20), R's ball first and 10 at R's 10 yard line. I had it stuck in my head that since this is a loose ball play the enforcement spot would be the previous spot and re-kick the ball. Which is correct?
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The rationale of 10-4-5 is that these fouls probably didn't have effect on the play. A touchback was probably going to be a touchback regardless if there was holding on the play or not and the basic spot being the 20 eliminated the need to re-kick.
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I would add to that the NFHS has been doing their best to minimize/eliminate the need for do-overs on kick plays. This is one of those situations.
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I have to respectfully disagree with the above interpretation of 10-4-5d. I do agree with Ralph in that the foul in the OP did not affect the final result of the play. However, by rule the foul did happen during a Loose Ball Play per (2-33-1a & 10-3-1a) and I see no exceptions to allow a foul by R during a Free Kick that results in a TB to be enforced at the succeeding spot. My point being, 10-4-5d was in the books long before there was talk about "eliminating re-kicks."
I have not been able to find the actual year that 10-4-5d was created, I was able to find the following on FootballRefs.org concerning the 1996 Rule Changes:
"The basic spot of enforcement is now the 20 yard line instead of the goal line for plays which result in a touchback"
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Doesn't the 10-4-2 exception cover this? This is listed on the "2018 Football Rules Changes" summary page at the beginning of the rule book.
10-4-2 Exception: "EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) when K will not be next to put the ball in play."
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Holding by R DURING a free kick, the basic spot is the Previous spot. Don't get this confused with a foul by K during a kick. If the holding by R occurs after the kick is possessed then it becomes a running play.
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Doesn't the 10-4-2 exception cover this? This is listed on the "2018 Football Rules Changes" summary page at the beginning of the rule book.
10-4-2 Exception: "EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) when K will not be next to put the ball in play."
The 10-4-2 exception applies to fouls by K, the OP was a foul by R during the Free Kick.
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I have to respectfully disagree with the above interpretation of 10-4-5d. I do agree with Ralph in that the foul in the OP did not affect the final result of the play. However, by rule the foul did happen during a Loose Ball Play per (2-33-1a & 10-3-1a) and I see no exceptions to allow a foul by R during a Free Kick that results in a TB to be enforced at the succeeding spot. My point being, 10-4-5d was in the books long before there was talk about "eliminating re-kicks."
I have not been able to find the actual year that 10-4-5d was created, I was able to find the following on FootballRefs.org concerning the 1996 Rule Changes:
"The basic spot of enforcement is now the 20 yard line instead of the goal line for plays which result in a touchback"
You are correct, UMP33, that the basic spot would be the previous spot as PSK doesn't apply to free kicks. 10-4-5d was created in 1996 as you said. Prior to that, if A fouled after B intercepted or recovered a fumble in B's end zone and didn't bring it out, the basic spot was the goal line. The penalty on A would be declined, as the result would put the ball on the 15 and a touchback would put it on the 20. With the change, the ball would move to the 35 (assuming a 15 yard penalty).
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The 10-4-2 exception applies to fouls by K, the OP was a foul by R during the Free Kick.
Probably should have my morning coffee before posting! ;D
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Now I have become entirely confused. Do we have previous spot enforcement and re-kick or do we have 1st and 10 from the 10?
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Now I have become entirely confused. Do we have previous spot enforcement and re-kick or do we have 1st and 10 from the 10?
In your OP, the foul by R happened during the kick = a foul during a Loose Ball Play = previous spot enforcement if accepted.
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If the holding foul was during the kick, then it is a 10 yard penalty from the previous spot and rekick or decline and take the touchback.
Casebook play 8.5.3.B (b) is similar to the original question only R committed a hold rather than an illegal kick, but same ruling.
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If the holding foul was during the kick, then it is a 10 yard penalty from the previous spot and rekick or decline and take the touchback.
Casebook play 8.5.3.B (b) is similar to the original question only R committed a hold rather than an illegal kick, but same ruling.
I searched Case Book 6, 9 & 10 for a case play. Never thought of looking in 8 ... Good Find.