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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: BetweenTheLines on December 31, 2019, 07:37:14 AM
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You have a fifteen or ten yard penalty against B from B's 19 yard line. How many yards for the penalty? Where does the ball end up? Iv'e had this twice this year and my wing man in one of the contests swore the spot didn't make any sense because I was shouting out the distance not the spot. The first time this happened this year was in a tight game with time running out, it got more confusing than it should have and both were live ball penalties on first down.
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I'm assuming you are talking about half the distance penalties, so I'll frame my answer around that. Both penalties given qualify for half the distance. The easy way I remember that is by doubling the penalty yardage. Example: 15yd penalty becomes ˝ distance inside the 30; 10yd inside the 20, 5yd inside the ten. A 10yd penalty or a 15yd penalty marked off from the 19 would place the ball at the 9 ˝.
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I've heard officials (mostly online) think half the distance means half the penalty. In this case they would enforce 5 or 7.5 yards. NMWH is correct. If it's a 15-yard penalty enforced from the B23 though, I'm not putting it on the 11.5 yard line giving us a first down at the 1.5. I'm going to put it on the 11. Statistically they are getting that half yard anyway. If the line to gain isn't reached by enforcement though, I will put it on the 11.5.
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If it's a 15-yard penalty enforced from the B23 though, I'm not putting it on the 11.5 yard line giving us a first down at the 1.5. I'm going to put it on the 11. Statistically they are getting that half yard anyway. If the line to gain isn't reached by enforcement though, I will put it on the 11.5.
I disagree somewhat; if we're marking off the penalty from the previous spot and the previous spot was on an odd-numbered tick, I'll do the half-yard.
I endorse the "rounding off" of spotting the ball, since it's all based on perception and an official's judgement anyway. But once we've established where the spot is, I don't round off when we're doing penalty math by the book and not based on any official's perception.
Now if the enforcement spot is the end of the run, or the spot of the flag, then that's a different story - you might discover that those spots just so happen to fall on even-numbered yard lines.
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You have a fifteen or ten yard penalty against B from B's 19 yard line. How many yards for the penalty? Where does the ball end up? Iv'e had this twice this year and my wing man in one of the contests swore the spot didn't make any sense because I was shouting out the distance not the spot. The first time this happened this year was in a tight game with time running out, it got more confusing than it should have and both were live ball penalties on first down.
I would suggest that if you "shout out the distance" IMHO that could be confusing. I always confirm the spot that we're going to on 1/2 distances enforcements by announcing the yard line that will be going to (subsequent spot) before we step off the penalty.
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I disagree somewhat; if we're marking off the penalty from the previous spot and the previous spot was on an odd-numbered tick, I'll do the half-yard.
I endorse the "rounding off" of spotting the ball, since it's all based on perception and an official's judgement anyway. But once we've established where the spot is, I don't round off when we're doing penalty math by the book and not based on any official's perception.
Now if the enforcement spot is the end of the run, or the spot of the flag, then that's a different story - you might discover that those spots just so happen to fall on even-numbered yard lines.
That's also fair and you aren't wrong for doing it. But it's highly unlikely anyone but the stats guy is going to notice if you put it on the 11.5 or 11 and if they do notice they aren't going to care.
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Statistically they are getting that half yard anyway. If the line to gain isn't reached by enforcement though, I will put it on the 11.5.
You’re going to base where you spot the ball on the statistical impact?
10-1-5 explicitly states “half the distance to the goal line.” Put it on the 11.5 whether or not a first down is involved.
ART. 5 . . . Enforcement of a penalty cannot take the ball more than half the distance from the enforcement spot to the offending team's goal line. If the prescribed penalty is greater than this, the ball is placed halfway from the spot of enforcement to the goal line.
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10-1-5 explicitly states “half the distance to the goal line.” Put it on the 11.5 whether or not a first down is involved.
I'd agree here. Calculate the enforcement based on starting point and let the HL know where you're going and step it off. We typically don't "put it on a tick" once we're inside the 20.
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I would suggest that if you "shout out the distance" IMHO that could be confusing. I always confirm the spot that we're going to on 1/2 distances enforcements by announcing the yard line that will be going to (subsequent spot) before we step off the penalty.
This is my practice as well. When I meet with the U, the conversation goes something like this: "What yard line is spot of enforcement?" "19." "˝ of 19 is 9 ˝. We going to the 9 ˝. You good with that?" "Yep."
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In our group HL and U signal 1 (5 yds), 2 (10 yds) , 3 (15 yds) or a chop (1/2 the distance) before we walk off the penalty together. No shouting necessary. Only on on half the distance will I verbalize the yardline we should be going.
I've never heard anyone describe "half the distance" as "half the penalty".
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This is my practice as well. When I meet with the U, the conversation goes something like this: "What yard line is spot of enforcement?" "19." "˝ of 19 is 9 ˝. We going to the 9 ˝. You good with that?" "Yep."
I definitely agree in that case because a new line to gain is not being established. But I would much rather rely on the lines on the field which I know are 10 yards apart (assuming field turf or well lined fields) rather than an arbitrary spot established by the chain 2-4 yards off the sideline followed by an arbitrary clip spot. I worked chains for a state final game this year and we had a spot that was clearly on a line and should have been awarded a first down. But the crew decided to measure. I'm not sure if the back stake was set a few inches off and/or the clip was a couple links off, but when they stretched it the front stake was about 3 inches beyond the other side of the line. It was huge because it resulted in a change of possession. The crew was diligent about starting on a line so I'm not sure how the chains were off, but it proved how inexact the chain system is. The lines are infinitely better so use them when you can.
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You’re going to base where you spot the ball on the statistical impact?
10-1-5 explicitly states “half the distance to the goal line.” Put it on the 11.5 whether or not a first down is involved.
That's not the reason for doing it, but we aren't giving either team an advantage or disadvantage by doing it. Either way we are establishing 1st and 10 from the spot so what do the 18 inches matter at that point? Inside the 10 with no LTG? Absolutely. After a measurement or spot where the ball comes up less than a half hard short? Absolutely? But any other time try to put it on a yard line and the game will flow more smoothly. BTW...I got that stats comment from an NFL and NCAA statistician who also happens to be a high school football coach.
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I definitely agree in that case because a new line to gain is not being established. But I would much rather rely on the lines on the field which I know are 10 yards apart (assuming field turf or well lined fields) rather than an arbitrary spot established by the chain 2-4 yards off the sideline followed by an arbitrary clip spot. I worked chains for a state final game this year and we had a spot that was clearly on a line and should have been awarded a first down. But the crew decided to measure. I'm not sure if the back stake was set a few inches off and/or the clip was a couple links off, but when they stretched it the front stake was about 3 inches beyond the other side of the line. It was huge because it resulted in a change of possession. The crew was diligent about starting on a line so I'm not sure how the chains were off, but it proved how inexact the chain system is. The lines are infinitely better so use them when you can.
My crew is so used to putting it on a tick that even if the U were to spot it in between, the H would set the box on the hash and tell the U to "move it up" on the radio. So in reality, we would spot this ball on the 9.
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My crew is so used to putting it on a tick that even if the U were to spot it in between, the H would set the box on the hash and tell the U to "move it up" on the radio. So in reality, we would spot this ball on the 9.
So if the enforcement spot was the 21 and we've got a PF (15 yards) would you place the ball on the 11 or the 10? ???
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So if the enforcement spot was the 21 and we've got a PF (15 yards) would you place the ball on the 11 or the 10? ???
Probably the 10. Definitely not the 10.5 because you never want the line to gain inside the 1.
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Makes sense.
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Probably the 10. Definitely not the 10.5 because you never want the line to gain inside the 1.
Makes sense.
So you would both deprive team A of a possible 1st down without scoring to "put it on a tick"? ???
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I'm putting the ball on the 10.5, as required by the rules.
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IMHO, when you're in halve-the-distance country, you're within spitting distance of the goal line. We all know what a half yard can make when you are nudging the end zone. As I recall, from my daze of youth, fractions are taught in the 4th grade. Let's give 'em the true enforcement and not what is easier for us.
:sTiR: tR:oLl :sTiR:
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So you would both deprive team A of a possible 1st down without scoring to "put it on a tick"? ???
Absolutely when that LTG would be 12-24 inches from the goal line, the chains being arbitrarily set to begin with, a clip then arbitrarily set once the chains are set, and any spot being arbitrary since you don't have a reference line between the yard lines. It's first and 10 either way and the likelihood of getting a first down at the 12 inch line is extremely rare. Once the ball is set at the 10 the team's goal is to now get a TD. Every clinic I've ever attended as an umpire I've been told NEVER (and that's a big word rarely used) allow the line to gain to be inside the 1. I think that's pretty good advice.
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Absolutely when that LTG would be 12-24 inches from the goal line, the chains being arbitrarily set to begin with, a clip then arbitrarily set once the chains are set, and any spot being arbitrary since you don't have a reference line between the yard lines. It's first and 10 either way and the likelihood of getting a first down at the 12 inch line is extremely rare. Once the ball is set at the 10 the team's goal is to now get a TD. Every clinic I've ever attended as an umpire I've been told NEVER (and that's a big word rarely used) allow the line to gain to be inside the 1. I think that's pretty good advice.
So if I'm following that guideline then we're going to the 11. I'm under no circumstances giving A an extra 1/2 yard and thereby depriving them of a possible 1st down at the 1. But more to the point we're not fudging it to begin with. Of our 34 teams across 3 leagues we have 28 or 29 turf fields. No need to worry about the accuracy of the spot or the clip.
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I've heard officials (mostly online) think half the distance means half the penalty. In this case they would enforce 5 or 7.5 yards. NMWH is correct. If it's a 15-yard penalty enforced from the B23 though, I'm not putting it on the 11.5 yard line giving us a first down at the 1.5. I'm going to put it on the 11. Statistically they are getting that half yard anyway. If the line to gain isn't reached by enforcement though, I will put it on the 11.5.
Our assigner sent out a memo on this very thing this week. Apparently, some knucklehead WH in our association was halving the penalty last year. smh.
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So if I'm following that guideline then we're going to the 11. I'm under no circumstances giving A an extra 1/2 yard and thereby depriving them of a possible 1st down at the 1. But more to the point we're not fudging it to begin with. Of our 34 teams across 3 leagues we have 28 or 29 turf fields. No need to worry about the accuracy of the spot or the clip.
The accuracy of the clip becomes an issue if you are going to start between the 10 and 11 and no longer have a line on the field as reference.
Worked chains for a game last year where the crew was generally using lines to start a series. A reaches a spot where the ball is touching the yard line at the LTG. They chose to measure and the front stake fell about 6 inches beyond the nose of the ball. Not sure if the back stake was set incorrectly or the clip was off or the H put the clip down on the wrong side of the line. But it should have been a first down based on where the series started. But something happened with the chains or the clip that resulted in a turnover on downs.
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The accuracy of the clip becomes an issue if you are going to start between the 10 and 11 and no longer have a line on the field as reference.
Worked chains for a game last year where the crew was generally using lines to start a series. A reaches a spot where the ball is touching the yard line at the LTG. They chose to measure and the front stake fell about 6 inches beyond the nose of the ball. Not sure if the back stake was set incorrectly or the clip was off or the H put the clip down on the wrong side of the line. But it should have been a first down based on where the series started. But something happened with the chains or the clip that resulted in a turnover on downs.
Also, remember we are dealing with some grass fields that are marked manually. I have seen some yard lines that are off by as much as a foot when you look at them closely across the field. It is not always the chains but the yard line irregularity.
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Actually had this happen:
First and 10 for A. (Don't recall exact yard line, but half the distance situation was not involved.) B was flagged for encroachment. First and 5 for A. B was called for encroachment a second time. Penalty was walked off by U, yes U could have just moved ball to front stake line, but didn't. WH then looks at spot of ball and the front stake and appears to be considering a measurement. Before WH can do anything rash, I go over and tell him that he should not even be considering a measurement. First and 10, two 5 yard penalties on B, it is now a first and 10. WH hat ignores my input and calls for a measurement. Ball is 6 inches short of a first down. WH signals first and inches, coach A goes nuts, I slink back to my LJ position. I don't recall working with that WH after that.
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Lol. A should have been pleased. I'd much rather have first and inches than first and ten//
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You have a fifteen or ten yard penalty against B from B's 19 yard line. How many yards for the penalty? Where does the ball end up? Iv'e had this twice this year and my wing man in one of the contests swore the spot didn't make any sense because I was shouting out the distance not the spot. The first time this happened this year was in a tight game with time running out, it got more confusing than it should have and both were live ball penalties on first down.
In this scenario, I'm "strongly encouraging" the calling official to "inform" ^talk me that the foul occurred at the 20 or 18. Who's to argue? Are we really THAT accurate with the flag.... tiphat:
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Also, remember we are dealing with some grass fields that are marked manually. I have seen some yard lines that are off by as much as a foot when you look at them closely across the field. It is not always the chains but the yard line irregularity.
This was an NFL stadium. The lines were pretty good.
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I did a game on a field like this once Part of the field was fine but the other half looked like it was marked after a three+ martini lunch. Some of the yard lines looked like snakes slithering across the field.
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In this scenario, I'm "strongly encouraging" the calling official to "inform" ^talk me that the foul occurred at the 20 or 18. Who's to argue? Are we really THAT accurate with the flag.... tiphat:
The object is "communicating", maybe getting close enough to each other where "shouting" isn't necessary and being able to ask/answer direct questions might eliminate possible confusion or misunderstanding.
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Or we could just use our radios.
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ALF -
I agree with Calhoun!
Using the Radios is much preferred to shouting across the field.
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ALF -
I agree with Calhoun!
Using the Radios is much preferred to shouting across the field.
Perhaps, if your crews use radios, but for those of us that have yet to "progress" that far, simply moving towards each other, where you can communicate without shouting, is still a pretty effective way to reduce confusion.
We all have both BIG voices, as well as little voices, each which are designed to handle different situations better.
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Perhaps, if your crews use radios, but for those of us that have yet to "progress" that far, simply moving towards each other, where you can communicate without shouting, is still a pretty effective way to reduce confusion.
We all have both BIG voices, as well as little voices, each which are designed to handle different situations better.
Out here on the left coast we all just bucked up and bought our own O2O Radios.
Best improvement to officiating since they phased out those damned stirrup sox and added the Back Judge.
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Worked chains for a game last year where the crew was generally using lines to start a series. A reaches a spot where the ball is touching the yard line at the LTG. They chose to measure and the front stake fell about 6 inches beyond the nose of the ball. Not sure if the back stake was set incorrectly or the clip was off or the H put the clip down on the wrong side of the line. But it should have been a first down based on where the series started. But something happened with the chains or the clip that resulted in a turnover on downs.
"Coach, we started on the line, and he reached the line. That's a first down." No need to measure there.
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Had that convo at least twice last year. Most memorable: 3rd and whatever. Runner made the 30. Defense coach was like, "you're not going to measure that?" I was like, "Coach we started on the 20 with a touchback. Now we are on the 30. That's a first down all night long." He was like, " hEaDbAnG
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With SV coaches I like having them work it out themselves. “Coach, if we started at the 25 (I’m in Texas) after the touchback and now we’re at the 35, how far did we go?” That’s a little too snarky for me to use with varsity or college coaches, but it makes them think a little more so they stop yelling for a second.
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This is not college. Don't play God for the purposes of minimizing measurements. The forward point of the ball goes on the 9.5. Any other answer is incorrect.
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"Coach, we started on the line, and he reached the line. That's a first down." No need to measure there.
That was my thought exactly! Not sure why the crew chose to measure. They got a big downgrade from any experienced official watching them. Maybe we should have on the chain crew because either the clip was wrong or the placement of the back stake was wrong or both.
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This is not college. Don't play God for the purposes of minimizing measurements. The forward point of the ball goes on the 9.5. Any other answer is incorrect.
It's called smart game management. It's 1st and 10 from the 9.5 or the 10. The stats guy is considering it the 10 anyway. This is good officiating in college, high school or 3rd grade flag.
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It's called smart game management. It's 1st and 10 from the 9.5 or the 10. The stats guy is considering it the 10 anyway. This is good officiating in college, high school or 3rd grade flag.
aBdUcT I agree with Brian
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The stats guy is considering it the 10 anyway.
Regardless of your opinion on where we should be spotting the ball in this situation, and what good game management is, the last thing in the world I'm concerned with is what the stats guy is going to say. We don't officiate the stats. We officiate on the field.
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I agree. The stat guy is not relevant. I also agree the purist solution is the 9 ˝. Practically, knowing how my U and H operate, we would snap the ball next from the 9.
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Many of our fields in Maine were hay fields where cows once roamed. A couple of mis-marked markings are remembered :
(1) In our pre-game measurement of the chains, from the 45 to the 45 showed the chains to be about a yard short. :!#
(2) We quickly summoned Mr. AD. :-[
(3) He suggested : "Try 30 to 40" :P - it was on the money ??? .
(4) Mr. AD informed us that the goal posts were mistakenly placed 121 yards apart, hence the "51 yard line". 8]
(5) Visiting coach was advised and Mr. AD was suggested to go with 10.5 yard end zones next year.
In a state championship game, chains checked out on "45 to 45" stretch....
(1) We had a touchback, chains set properly at 20.
(2) After 1 play, a :o wide-eyed wingman came a' running in.
(3) The chains had only stretched short of the 30 by a foot.
(4) We quickly checked 30 to 40 = on the money.
(5) Told both coaches that the chains were official and the 30 yard line was not....
.......AND THE BAND PLAYED ON
:) P_S ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8] ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'( :bOW :!# deadhorse: eAt& LOL pi1eOn pray:; yEs: aWaRd nAnA sNiCkErS pHiNzuP cRaZy :angel: :embarassed: :laugh: tR:oLl :puke: :puke: (FANS)
MORALE OF STORY :
The game is played by humans, coached by humans, officiated by humans, field marked by humans and cheered by humans....THE LAST TWO MAY NOT BE SOBER !
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Perhaps the greatest attribute of a competent Football Game official is still their "common sense understanding of the game and it's rules" and their ability to apply them.