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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: CalhounLJ on August 26, 2020, 02:13:33 PM
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Would a two-handed aggressive push by a player meet the definition of fighting?
FIGHTING
Fighting is any attempt by a player or nonplayer to strike or engage a player or nonplayer in a combative manner unrelated to football. Such acts include, but are not limited to, attempts to strike an opponent(s) with the arm(s), hand(s), leg(s) or foot (feet), whether or not there is contact
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I’m looking specifically at the part “in a combative manner.”
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I don't think I would flag that for fighting. If I was going to flag it, I would flag it for a personal foul, UNR.
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How long would you let them get by with it? All night?
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I guess I’m wondering what this would look like in real life.
r engage a player or nonplayer in a combative manner unrelated to football
If it’s not kicking, striking, or attempting to strike another player or official, what does “engage a player ...in a combative manner unrelated to football look like, if it’s not an aggressive push or something of that nature.
Because the final statement seems to suggest fight8ng can be something more than swinging fists or kicking:
Such acts include, but are not limited to, attempts to strike an opponent(s) with the arm(s), hand(s), leg(s) or foot (feet), whether or not there is contact
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In the past we've been advised to call the 1st instance similar to what is described here as UNR. If the offending player repeats this act and it additionally includes any form taunting components (language, standing over opponent, etc) call it UNC along with the caveat to the offending player that a 3rd instance will result in his ejection. I sure we've all seen these types of acts that are both physical and taunting so under NFHS rules although they include a physical component they also overlap into the UNC definitions.
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What is UNC and UNR ??
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UNR is unnecessary roughness and UNC is unsportsmanlike conduct
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In the past we've been advised to call the 1st instance similar to what is described here as UNR. If the offending player repeats this act and it additionally includes any form taunting components (language, standing over opponent, etc) call it UNC along with the caveat to the offending player that a 3rd instance will result in his ejection. I sure we've all seen these types of acts that are both physical and taunting so under NFHS rules although they include a physical component they also overlap into the UNC definitions.
This makes sense although we have been told to call it USC the first time with ejection the second. My argument is if we can call it combative action unrelated to football let’s just eject him the first time and be done with it.
After all, all it takes is one push to start a riot these days.
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This makes sense although we have been told to call it USC the first time with ejection the second. My argument is if we can call it combative action unrelated to football let’s just eject him the first time and be done with it.
After all, all it takes is one push to start a riot these days.
I would not throw a flag the first time this happened. I would give a warning and then if repeated throw a flag for unneccesary roughness. I think if a player pushes back somebody in the way you described it it was probably in retaliation for something that was done to him during the play.
I had a game last year where the situation you described occured and the white hat threw a flag immediately and penalized the team 15 yards DEAD BALL for a personal foul, unsportsmanlike conduct. Not only loss of yardage but loss of down. I remember thinking it was excessive and wondered why he threw a flag as no punches were thrown. Football is an emotional game and I felt the player was letting off steam and it might have been for a good reason. A warning followed by close watching might have better imho.
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I understand why you may feel that way. The problem is that retaliation and/or letting off steam are not valid reasons for committing these types of fouls. A crew from our association let a game get out of hand last year by not penalizing this very action. I’m wondering how to keep that from happening to my crew this year.
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This makes sense although we have been told to call it USC the first time with ejection the second. My argument is if we can call it combative action unrelated to football let’s just eject him the first time and be done with it.
After all, all it takes is one push to start a riot these days.
It has been my understanding that USC is a non-contact foul. Pushing or making contact with an opposing player should be called a personal foul, which does not count toward ejection like USC. If one player pushes an opponent, and he pushes back, then you could call it fighting.
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It has been my understanding that USC is a non-contact foul. Pushing or making contact with an opposing player should be called a personal foul, which does not count toward ejection like USC. If one player pushes an opponent, and he pushes back, then you could call it fighting.
It would be hard to call it fighting I think. Maybe uneccessary roughness. Fighting is an immediate ejection plus the player would be ineligible for the next game. That seems to me to be a really servere penalty for some shoving after the play but I have yet to be in a game that gets out of control so maybe the right way of thinking is zero tolerance. But it still doesn't seem right to me and I think a warning would be the best way to handle this.
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There is a difference between shoving as in “get off me” and shoving in a combative manner unrelated to football. In RE: to Js post, what about the second shove made it fighting?
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Hi Calhoun...i would say in that case you could penalize both players unneccesary roughness to make your point. No team has gained an advantage and both players have a 'yellow card' so to speak so consider it a warning?
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The problem with UNR is that unlike a yellow card they don’t pile up. If I remember my soccer, 2 yellows = 1 red and a disqualification. A player can keep getting UNRS all night long as long as the coach puts up with it. Our problem around here is we have a couple of teams with coaches who encourage it. A USC will solve the problem the second time. If I can swing a fighting penalty I can solve it the first time.
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Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I’m interested to hear opinions on what a combative act not related to football would be if it’s not swinging the foot, leg, hand or arm at an opponent. Anyone have any idea? Specific examples would help.
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I'd have to see it, but I'm probably 100% certain this isn't fighting. UNR.
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Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I’m interested to hear opinions on what a combative act not related to football would be if it’s not swinging the foot, leg, hand or arm at an opponent. Anyone have any idea? Specific examples would help.
I'd imagine like a UFC takedown / submission move.
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There is a difference between shoving as in “get off me” and shoving in a combative manner unrelated to football. In RE: to Js post, what about the second shove made it fighting?
I didn't say it was fighting. I meant, because of the retaliation, you could call it fighting.
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How long would you let them get by with it? All night?
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If the coach wants to leave the player in the game while we continue to walk off 15 yard penalties that is his decision.
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I didn't say it was fighting. I meant, because of the retaliation, you could call it fighting.
I’m confused. You’re calling the retaliatory push fighting?
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FWIW, I’ve seen street fights start with a shove. One guy shoves another guy the shoved guy retaliateswith a punch. Who started the fight?
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If the coach wants to leave the player in the game while we continue to walk off 15 yard penalties that is his decision.
That’s what happened to the crew last year. Coaches and players were so mad at one another they didn’t care about the penalties. It disintegrated from there to a free for all.
Looking at the film, while no punches were thrown, the way they were shoving it sure looked like they were fighting.
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Here is NC's criteria for Fighting: . Fighting, which includes, but is not limited to, combative acts such as:*An attempt to strike an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet*An attempt to punch or kick an opponent, regardless of whether or not contact is made*An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsportsmanlike act toward an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate.
Is a shove "an attempt to strike an opponent with..hands......" Maybe. I think you would have to judge the totality of the circumstances. Just a solitary "get off me" shove and turning away, I'm not considering that a fight. If you get a shove and a say a flex or stare down or "get off me MF'er" then I think we are headed into "an attempt to instigate a fight...." and under our criteria would qualify.
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It has been my understanding that USC is a non-contact foul. Pushing or making contact with an opposing player should be called a personal foul, which does not count toward ejection like USC. If one player pushes an opponent, and he pushes back, then you could call it fighting.
I'm not sure I'd call it fighting, but if the acts include any of the UNC components (language, taunting, standing over an opponent, etc.) then independent of the physical part you have at your discretion a UNC call. If needed to control the game call both UNR and UNC. We've done it before and it pretty quickly puts and end to the BS.
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Here is NC's criteria for Fighting: . Fighting, which includes, but is not limited to, combative acts such as:*An attempt to strike an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet*An attempt to punch or kick an opponent, regardless of whether or not contact is made*An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsportsmanlike act toward an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate.
Is a shove "an attempt to strike an opponent with..hands......" Maybe. I think you would have to judge the totality of the circumstances. Just a solitary "get off me" shove and turning away, I'm not considering that a fight. If you get a shove and a say a flex or stare down or "get off me MF'er" then I think we are headed into "an attempt to instigate a fight...." and under our criteria would qualify.
This is good. I may copy it and send it to my assigner as a suggestion. Thanks to all who engaged this topic. All opinions were helpful.
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Our state would not sustain an immediate ejection for fighting for what you’ve described; however, the 2-16-2c definition of a flagrant foul includes “violations that are extremely or persistently vulgar or abusive conduct.” (my emphasis)
I would flag for UNR on the first occurrence and consider any repeat act by the same offender to be flagrant and ejectionable.
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That makes sense. At this time, my state is not in the habit of sustaining any ejections, but at least I can get the bad apple out of my game. Btw, this is part of the problem in my state.
So, in this instance, do you write down the number of the offender the first time? Because that’s not a normal,practice for me. I do record USC, but not UNR.
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Our state would not sustain an immediate ejection for fighting for what you’ve described; however, the 2-16-2c definition of a flagrant foul includes “violations that are extremely or persistently vulgar or abusive conduct.” (my emphasis)
I would flag for UNR on the first occurrence and consider any repeat act by the same offender to be flagrant and ejectionable.
The part in bold is how I have been taught and applied the available rules for the past 25+ years. Remember, 9-4-4 Illegal Personal Contact PENALTY says "Disqualification also if any fouls under these articles are judged by the game official to be flagrant." We always record the number of players who commit one of these fouls and take note when he does it a second or third time. Recidivists are disqualified.
On another note, does the first part of your answer mean that Alabama would reinstate a player who was disqualified if they determine you made an error in judgement?
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On another note, does the first part of your answer mean that Alabama would reinstate a player who was disqualified if they determine you made an error in judgement?
I can't speak for Alabama, but I do know that coaches will appeal supplemental discipline post-ejection in North Carolina and students have been reinstated after review. The ejection obviously stands for that game, but it comes with an automatic additional game or two suspension depending on the reason.
For example, player comes off the bench during a fight, so the officials flag and toss #83, but it turns out it was #88 ... or that #83 was already on the field and didn't come off the bench... that can be corrected with video evidence. If #83 gets tossed for saying "That M-F-er!" is going to stand because there's no audio that would pick that up. Not putting specific words in anybody's mouth, the implication is that we should flag and toss if it's questionable and the state will reverse the suspension if needed -- err on the side of safety. The state can't/won't suspend a player later that *should* have been a flag/ejection but it wasn't called in game.
There are a bunch of other hoops that coaches have to jump through to appeal as well, so every ejection is not appealed an overturned.
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What may happen, or change, after a game is over in not within the game official's responsibility, or control. However, the game officials judgment, as to what level of remedy is appropriate for behavior during a specific game is EXCLUSIVELY decided by the game officials, and pertains to ONLY the specific behavior being assessed, and it's potential effect, on that particular contest.
Coaches (and/or players) are not REQUIRED to agree with those decisions, but they are REQUIRED to accept them, and whatever consequences may be assigned. There is no authorization in either NFHS 1-1-6, or 1-1-9 for any mandatory consultation, discussion or appeal, although game officials can CHOOSE if, when and to what, if any, extent, they alone deem necessary, to consider, what may be perceived as relevant additional detail.
Ageless advice still prevails, "if you can't do the time, DON'T do the crime).
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On another note, does the first part of your answer mean that Alabama would reinstate a player who was disqualified if they determine you made an error in judgement?
In Alabama, the first ejection doesn’t carry a suspension — it’s a $300 fine. So if a participant is ejected for fighting and their action doesn’t meet the 2-11 definition, it will likely be overturned on appeal. That would fall under the category of misapplying a rule, not an error in judgement.
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Flag him for PF/UNR
Get in his face. Let him know you saw exactly what he did.
Tell him if he does it again you will deem it to be a FLAGRANT ACT.
Stop the game long enough to Advise his Head Coach (So he can not later claim he knew nothing about it.)
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In situations such as this, I've had success in bringing the two combatants together and applied a "Come to Jesus" speech:
"GUY(S) ,I WANT TO KEEP YOU IN THE GAME AS YOUR TEAM(S) NEED(S) YOU. CAN YOU (BOTH) SHAKE HANDS AND AGREE TO PLAY HARD BUT CLEAN?"
I've only had one problem, when a big ole' Bubba responded: "You can't make me shake his hand, ref >:( !"
I replied : "NO, I can't BUT I can watch you every play AND you better play clean 8] >"
Big ole' Bubba then hugged his opponent and said : LET'S BE GOOD...WE PALS :o !"
…….and the band played on
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Goes to show, Common sense is STILL the beat tool in our belt, followed closely by, "Always Be nice, until it's time to NOT be nice"
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Goes to show, Common sense is STILL the beat tool in our belt, followed closely by, "Always Be nice, until it's time to NOT be nice"
And remember, you heard it hear here first,
Never enter the field without your beat tool in your belt! LOL
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Thankfully, typing skills are clearly of secondary significance.
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And remember, you heard it hear first,
Never enter the field without your beat tool in your belt! LOL
FWIW, I didn't hear anything hear. All I heared was over yonder.
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Touche'