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Football Officiating => General Discussion => Topic started by: skt101 on September 11, 2020, 08:49:05 AM
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What is the actual NFHS rule when it comes to assisting the ball carrier? Can an offensive player push the pile that the runner is in but not actually pushing the runner without penalty? Seems like some gray area.
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What is the actual NFHS rule when it comes to assisting the ball carrier? Can an offensive player push the pile that the runner is in but not actually pushing the runner without penalty? Seems like some gray area.
It's officiated very gray as well. This is one that most officials will not call unless it's an obvious PULL or pickup of the runner. Your assertion about pushing the pile is correct - hands need to be on the runner to call it. In NCAA, it's legal to push the runner, but not pull or pick up.
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What is the actual NFHS rule when it comes to assisting the ball carrier? Can an offensive player push the pile that the runner is in but not actually pushing the runner without penalty? Seems like some gray area.
Might I recommend asking specific code questions in the appropriate code forum? (NFHS or NCAA).
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There is no rule against "pushing the pile" so it's not really gray. Coaches will yell for it just like "He's holdin'!" Dragging or pulling the runner is a pretty easy indicator. The tough ones are when a teammate, usually a lineman, and the runner collide in some aspect. Sometimes the teammate can be a little too exuberant.
As a former crewmate of mine used to say, "Make it big or keep it in your pants!"
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I've called it once, and I don't ever expect to call it again.
Middle school game, so puberty has not been equally distributed amongst the players. QB is clearly the best/biggest athlete on the field, but at least knows he can't just keep the ball every play.
Goal line play, 3rd down, QB hold the ball out for the RB to take. RB gets his hands on the ball, QB doesn't really let go but then wraps around into a bear hug around the RB. QB essentially *picks up* the RB and drives them both into the pile up the middle.
If it's any less obvious than that, I'm not flagging it.
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Rare as hen’ teeth but it does happen.
Working a small school varsity game 25 or so years ago. They put in a very small running back on 4th and goal from the 1.
Yep,
The Other 3 backs picked him up and threw him over the goal line.
Multiple flags and a quizzical coach!
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It's officiated very gray as well. This is one that most officials will not call unless it's an obvious PULL or pickup of the runner. Your assertion about pushing the pile is correct - hands need to be on the runner to call it. In NCAA, it's legal to push the runner, but not pull or pick up.
One way to avoid suffering a moral dilemma, is the moment you decide a violation has actually occurred, instead of reaching for your flag, you might consider the runner's personal progress has ended, and simply end the play at the spot the illegal assistance began.
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As a former crewmate girlfriend of mine used to say, "Make it big or keep it in your pants!"
FIFY
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There is no rule against "pushing the pile" so it's not really gray. Coaches will yell for it just like "He's holdin'!" Dragging or pulling the runner is a pretty easy indicator. The tough ones are when a teammate, usually a lineman, and the runner collide in some aspect. Sometimes the teammate can be a little too exuberant.
As a former crewmate of mine used to say, "Make it big or keep it in your pants!"
This is a great principle to follow in all fouls.
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One way to avoid suffering a moral dilemma, is the moment you decide a violation has actually occurred, instead of reaching for your flag, you might consider the runner's personal progress has ended, and simply end the play at the spot the illegal assistance began.
That’s a good option too.
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I've called only one. The Guard was in front, turned, grabbed the jersey which pulled out of the runner's pants and ended up with the tee shirt stretched out about two feet upfield. My sideline, I replied, as the flag flew .... "Coach, that is illegal assisting the runner right there. Now you know what is illegal." We were all laughing ...coach finally says "I guess we need to teach them better."
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One of our crews had this “unicorn” last week, and according to an official observer at the game it was “absolutely the correct call.” A’s RB got hit & turned sideways at the B-2, & OL grabbed him in a bear hug to pull him across the GL.
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Rare as hen’ teeth but it does happen.
Working a small school varsity game 25 or so years ago. They put in a very small running back on 4th and goal from the 1.
Yep,
The Other 3 backs picked him up and threw him over the goal line.
Multiple flags and a quizzical coach!
I wish you had video of that, LOL
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I wish you had video of that, LOL
Had it at one time, old vhs but long gone.
Referee was laughing so hard he could hardly face the press box much less give the announcement
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While this is one of those 'scourge' calls, the rule exists for a reason, and there are occasions that it must be used. Never had it in a varsity or NCAA game, but had it in a sub-varsity game (before my FBS days). Ball carrier is breaking through the line, and is being slowed by several B defenders. A teammate out in front of the BC (and totally in the open, so everyone in the stadium can see him) turns around, and sees the BC being slowed by the defenders. So he reaches out, grabs the BC by his FACEMASK, and begins pulling him forward. BC gains nearly 5 more yards before finally going down.
Kinda hard not to make that call.
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At one time I saw a YouTube video of the HS team where I used to live. Their star RB wound up being the all-time leasing rusher at his D1-AA nee' FCS college and I think is an asst. coach there now. The video shows probably the most blatant HS example of him doing it that I ever witnessed. I'll have to see if I can dig it up.
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Interesting question. I noticed many times how linemen push QB to end-zone. I flagged several times grasping, encircling, and holding teammate, but never just for pushing say QB's back to advance him with a ball forward. Its legal in NCAA and our rulebook too
Interfering for or Helping the Ball Carrier or Passer—ARTICLE 2
Approved Ruling 9-3-2
I. In trying to gain yardage, ball carrier A44 is slowed by defensive players
attempting to make the tackle. Back A22 (a) puts his hands on the
buttocks of A44 and pushes him forward; (b) pushes the pile of teammates
who begin to surround A44; (c) grabs the arm of A44 and tries to pull him
forward for more yardage. RULING: (a) and (b) Legal. It is not a foul to
push the ball carrier or the pile. (c) Foul for assisting the runner. Five-yard
penalty with three-and-one enforcement.
To push a runner for his progress forward is forbidden in NFHS, but I have specific question in NFHS section.
http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=15265.0
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One way to avoid suffering a moral dilemma, is the moment you decide a violation has actually occurred, instead of reaching for your flag, you might consider the runner's personal progress has ended, and simply end the play at the spot the illegal assistance began.
I'll vote for that, Al. IMHO,a good response to A's coach would be : "HIS own forward progress was stopped. His teammates were moving him and my other choice would be to flag for helping the runner."
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I'll vote for that, Al. IMHO,a good response to A's coach would be : "HIS own forward progress was stopped. His teammates were moving him and my other choice would be to flag for helping the runner."
Same response works for Coach of "B" as well. Maybe I'd use "option" instead of "choice". Hope all is well up North, over here our only option/choice is early hibernation although our younger officials have a limited "flag" choice.
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I'll vote for that, Al. IMHO,a good response to A's coach would be : "HIS own forward progress was stopped. His teammates were moving him and my other choice would be to flag for helping the runner."
So, along those lines, would you apply the same logic on a goal line play? RB dives, QB dives in behind him and pushes the pile, would you blow it dead and say forward progress stopped when the QB touched the runner?
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QB dives in behind him and pushes the pile
This thread has come full circle.
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So, along those lines, would you apply the same logic on a goal line play? RB dives, QB dives in behind him and pushes the pile, would you blow it dead and say forward progress stopped when the QB touched the runner?
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It all depends on what I actually saw. Did the RB break the plane BEFORE he was (directly) pushed by the QB? (as noted, "Pushing the pile" is NOT a foul. Was the RB's forward motion stopped before the pile was pushed?
NFHS 9-1 is pretty clear, "An offensive player SHALL NOT push, pull or lift THE RUNNER to ASSIST his forward progress.
If I JUDGED (likely after consultation with my wing officials) that the runner broke the plane BEFORE being contacted, it would be a TD, and the play would be dead. If the PUSH was determined to have assisted the RB to advance and break the plane, it would be a foul. It really all comes down to what is actually observed on THAT SPECIFIC play, "One size NEVER fits all"
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With all due respect Al, most rule questions have solid, concrete, objective answers. The ambiguity you keep revealing in these posts are really not helpful. Whether the official correctly applies the rule is inconsequential as to the actual correctness of the rule itself.
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It all depends on what I actually saw. Did the RB break the plane BEFORE he was (directly) pushed by the QB? (as noted, "Pushing the pile" is NOT a foul. Was the RB's forward motion stopped before the pile was pushed?
NFHS 9-1 is pretty clear, "An offensive player SHALL NOT push, pull or lift THE RUNNER to ASSIST his forward progress.
If I JUDGED (likely after consultation with my wing officials) that the runner broke the plane BEFORE being contacted, it would be a TD, and the play would be dead. If the PUSH was determined to have assisted the RB to advance and break the plane, it would be a foul. It really all comes down to what is actually observed on THAT SPECIFIC play, "One size NEVER fits all"
So let’s say you actually saw the runner hit the pile, not in the end zone. Then you judged the runner had not broken the plane of the end zone before the contact to his BACK by the QB. Then you actually saw the QB hit the runner in the back, who by now is part of the pile. Then you actually saw the QB push the runner and the pile, and you actually judged the QB provided enough momentum to the runner connected to the pile to push both across the goal. Would you blow you whistle and kill the play? Would you throw your flag for assisting the runner? Or would you consider the play a td?
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So let’s say you actually saw the runner hit the pile, not in the end zone. Then you judged the runner had not broken the plane of the end zone before the contact to his BACK by the QB. Then you actually saw the QB hit the runner in the back, who by now is part of the pile. Then you actually saw the QB push the runner and the pile, and you actually judged the QB provided enough momentum to the runner connected to the pile to push both across the goal. Would you blow you whistle and kill the play? Would you throw your flag for assisting the runner? Or would you consider the play a td?
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What part of, "It ALL depends on what I BELIEVE I ACTUALLY SAW" (and my understanding of NFHS: 9-1) is confusing you?
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The part where you actually give a definitive answer to the question. . Reading my last post carefully, how would you rule on that specific situation?
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The part where you actually give a definitive answer to the question. . Reading my last post carefully, how would you rule on that specific situation?
You gave me either/or choices, the answer is the same for either/or; based on what I observed ACTUALLY happened, I would either rule TD, and IGNORE the contact as happening after the play had ended, or, if the contact was before the TD judge whether, or not, the contact ACTUALLY "assisted the runner's forward progress" in scoring the TD. If so, it would be a foul, if not it would be incidental, and immaterial.
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You gave me either/or choices, the answer is the same for either/or; based on what I observed ACTUALLY happened, I would either rule TD, and IGNORE the contact as happening after the play had ended, or, if the contact was before the TD judge whether, or not, the contact ACTUALLY "assisted the runner's forward progress" in scoring the TD. If so, it would be a foul, if not it would be incidental, and immaterial.
So there’s not a situation in which you would blow the play dead and rule his forward progress had stopped?
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So there’s not a situation in which you would blow the play dead and rule his forward progress had stopped?
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That wasn't one of the choices you asked about. Adding that option to the choices you made available, I'd be very much inclined to consider that choice whenever feasible. Of course if one of my crewmates judged what he observed worthy of a violation call, I'd respect his conclusion.
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So let’s say you actually saw the runner hit the pile, not in the end zone. Then you judged the runner had not broken the plane of the end zone before the contact to his BACK by the QB. Then you actually saw the QB hit the runner in the back, who by now is part of the pile. Then you actually saw the QB push the runner and the pile, and you actually judged the QB provided enough momentum to the runner connected to the pile to push both across the goal. Would you blow you whistle and kill the play? Would you throw your flag for assisting the runner? Or would you consider the play a td?
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Notice the first question after the situation. “Would you blow your whistle and kill the play?” It’s really a simple question. Based on your previous posts, if you were officiating a a game and witnessed a situation where all the variables pointed to a player pushing the runner toward the goal, would you blow the play dead and consider his forward progress stopped? Or throw your flag? Or rule a td? What’s your personal philosophy here?
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Notice the first question after the situation. “Would you blow your whistle and kill the play?” It’s really a simple question. Based on your previous posts, if you were officiating a a game and witnessed a situation where all the variables pointed to a player pushing the runner toward the goal, would you blow the play dead and consider his forward progress stopped? Or throw your flag? Or rule a td? What’s your personal philosophy here?
You seem to be having real difficulty with my stating, "it all depends on what I ACTUALLY SAW (on that PARTICULAR play"). Of course it might make a difference which position I might be working (Wing, Umpire, Referee). I try to avoid general "philosophies" (most of the time) and concentrate on what I'm looking at.
Was the runner stopped, did the "push" actually "assist" the runner gain something he was unable to gain on his own, was the "push" a contributing factor, did it provide an unearned advantage or make a difference. Essentially, did it matter. All 3 options you suggest (TD, Flag, Dead Ball short of the goal) are possible based on what I saw and judged happened on THIS play.
However, whatever I decided ends, with THIS play. Last time it happened, next time it happens are brand new judgmenst and decisions and this instance has no relevant bearing on the next time.
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You seem to be having real difficulty with my stating, "it all depends on what I ACTUALLY SAW (on that PARTICULAR play"). Of course it might make a difference which position I might be working (Wing, Umpire, Referee). I try to avoid general "philosophies" (most of the time) and concentrate on what I'm looking at.
Was the runner stopped, did the "push" actually "assist" the runner gain something he was unable to gain on his own, was the "push" a contributing factor, did it provide an unearned advantage or make a difference. Essentially, did it matter. All 3 options you suggest (TD, Flag, Dead Ball short of the goal) are possible based on what I saw and judged happened on THIS play.
However, whatever I decided ends, with THIS play. Last time it happened, next time it happens are brand new judgmenst and decisions and this instance has no relevant bearing on the next time.
Yes, we agree. I'm having great difficulty with your inability to take a stand on this play. Let's try it again:
Let's use your summary as a foundation: "Essentially, did it matter?" Let's say the answer is yes. It mattered. The only reason the ball crossed the goal line was because another player pushed the back of the ball carrier, who was part of the pile. In this specific instance, which of the options you have suggested yourself would you apply to this specific situation? Would you:
(1) Blow the play dead, ruling the runner's forward progress stopped the moment the other player pushed him?
(2) Throw a flag for assisting the runner?
(3) Rule the play a touchdown, ignoring the assist?
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Yes, we agree. I'm having great difficulty with your inability to take a stand on this play. Let's try it again:
Let's use your summary as a foundation: "Essentially, did it matter?" Let's say the answer is yes. It mattered. The only reason the ball crossed the goal line was because another player pushed the back of the ball carrier, who was part of the pile. In this specific instance, which of the options you have suggested yourself would you apply to this specific situation? Would you:
(1) Blow the play dead, ruling the runner's forward progress stopped the moment the other player pushed him?
(2) Throw a flag for assisting the runner?
(3) Rule the play a touchdown, ignoring the assist?
Now that you've asked a specific question, I'll be able to give you a specific answer. As you suggest, "The only reason the ball crossed the goal line was because another player pushed the back of the ball carrier" they didn't earn a TD. My choice would then be, since they didn't EARN a TD, they're not getting one.
Unless the actual pushing was blatant and/or flagrant, I'd exercise "preventive officiating", consider the runner's (own) progress ended where the pushing began and kill the play at that spot, giving the runner credit for ALL that HIS effort EARNED, although I would counsel the "pusher" that his action could have caused unnecessary consequences.
Stopping the play at that spot eliminates any UNEARNED advantage (for either team).
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This is not a foul to go looking for.
To paraphrase a line from John Wayne in Comancheros
It’s like a rattlesnake, you see one you’ll know it
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Now that you've asked a specific question, I'll be able to give you a specific answer. As you suggest, "The only reason the ball crossed the goal line was because another player pushed the back of the ball carrier" they didn't earn a TD. My choice would then be, since they didn't EARN a TD, they're not getting one.
Unless the actual pushing was blatant and/or flagrant, I'd exercise "preventive officiating", consider the runner's (own) progress ended where the pushing began and kill the play at that spot, giving the runner credit for ALL that HIS effort EARNED, although I would counsel the "pusher" that his action could have caused unnecessary consequences.
Stopping the play at that spot eliminates any UNEARNED advantage (for either team).
Thanks Al. That was simple and definitive.
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Yes, we agree. I'm having great difficulty with your inability to take a stand on this play. Let's try it again:
Let's use your summary as a foundation: "Essentially, did it matter?" Let's say the answer is yes. It mattered. The only reason the ball crossed the goal line was because another player pushed the back of the ball carrier, who was part of the pile. In this specific instance, which of the options you have suggested yourself would you apply to this specific situation? Would you:
(1) Blow the play dead, ruling the runner's forward progress stopped the moment the other player pushed him?
(2) Throw a flag for assisting the runner?
(3) Rule the play a touchdown, ignoring the assist?
A foul does not cause the ball to become dead. 4.2.2
The Ohio interpretation is that pushing the pile is not a foul.
Touchdown.
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This long dead, poor horse deserves a funeral and final resting place. You are absolutely correct, "Pushing the "Pile" is NOT a foul. Unfortunately that was NOT what was being discussed. However, "Aiding the runner" is a foul, as described in NFHS 9-1.
As some would suggest, a somewhat innocuous foul, that was suggested might be avoided (without being ignored) by considering that the runner's OWN forward progress had been stopped, when the "aiding" began, and therefore happened AFTER the play had stopped.
Or, of course you could decide to consider the "aiding" occurred during the play, and identify the foul. One of the many split second decisions you'll be challenged to make during a game.
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What is the actual NFHS rule when it comes to assisting the ball carrier? Can an offensive player push the pile that the runner is in but not actually pushing the runner without penalty? Seems like some gray area.
Whether an offensive player can push the pile is SPECIFICALLY the question
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Whether an offensive player can push the pile is SPECIFICALLY the question
You can parse your question as often as you like, and it doesn't change reality. "Helping the RUNNER" is a foul (as defined by 9-1). There is no rule violated by "pushing the pile".
If, however, YOU conclude, as in NFHS 2-15-1: "Forward progress is the advancement of the ball, toward the opponent's goal, in a runner's possession or the forward-most point of the ball when it is fumbled OOB and it determines the the dead-ball spot." has occurred, YOU can end play at that instant. It's really up to YOU, exclusively, hopefully based on what YOU are observing, at that moment.
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Lol. Ok.