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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: bama_stripes on September 19, 2020, 02:26:22 PM
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Is a team allowed to have only 4 linemen numbered 50-79 when in punt formation on downs 1-3? If so, what is the rules support for this formation?
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Is a team allowed to have only 4 linemen numbered 50-79 when in punt formation on downs 1-3? If so, what is the rules support for this formation?
Not according to 7-2-5b1 and 2-14-2a. The exception is for a place kick (a kick that can score) with a holder and a kicker in position.
My understanding is, for a punt with only a kicker 10 yds or more deep, 5 teammates numbered 50-79 are required.
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On 1st-3rd down, when A is in a legal scrimmage kick formation, A may replace one lineman with a number 50-79 with a player not wearing 50-79 provided that he is a) the snapper and b) between the ends. In this situation, A would be allowed to have only 4 lineman numbered 50-79.
A scrimmage kick formation would be a punt (1 player 10 yards behind the LOS) or place kick (holder 7 yards back + player in position to kick) and nobody in position to receive a hand to hand snap.
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NOTES:
1. On first, second or third down, when A sets or shifts into a scrimmage-kick formation as in 2-14-2a, the snapper may be a player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99.
2-14-2a is a field goal formation.
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Team A is trailing 21-20 in the 4th quarter and has just been awarded a 1st down after a long pass completed to the B-4 yard line and immediately takes a TO with 2 seconds on the clock. Team A sends out the field goal team. What are the "restricted 5" numbering requirements?
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Team A is trailing 21-20 in the 4th quarter and has just been awarded a 1st down after a long pass completed to the B-4 yard line and immediately takes a TO with 2 seconds on the clock. Team A sends out the field goal team. What are the "restricted 5" numbering requirements?
All the details are clearly spelled out in NFHS 7-2-5b (exceptions) regarding both 1-3 down SKF and 4th down SKF & try .
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All the details are clearly spelled out in NFHS 7-2-5b (exceptions) regarding both 1-3 down SKF and 4th down SKF & try .
For the benefit of those newer officials that find the rules language a bit circular could you enlighten us with a simple plain english answer?
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could you enlighten us with a simple plain english answer?
Oh boy.
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Oh boy.
LOL LOL
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For the benefit of those newer officials that find the rules language a bit circular could you enlighten us with a simple plain english answer?
The reason I referenced 7-2-5 itself, rather than try and explain it for readers is that the "Exception" covers several variations that are very specifically situation related. I would suggest reading each variation separately and fully understanding each before progressing to the next variation, which essentially becomes an exception to the previous exception.
There are a number of rules that address multiple, similar but different directions for similar, but different situations, that when read quickly without fully comprehending can cause confusion and future problems.
Most often, the best way to try and eat and elephant is simply one bite (thoroughly digested) at a time. That's a practical formula to follow for understanding football rules. Often Case Book examples can help the digestive effort.
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The reason I referenced 7-2-5 itself, rather than try and explain it for readers is that the "Exception" covers several variations that are very specifically situation related. I would suggest reading each variation separately and fully understanding each before progressing to the next variation, which essentially becomes an exception to the previous exception.
There are a number of rules that address multiple, similar but different directions for similar, but different situations, that when read quickly without fully comprehending can cause confusion and future problems.
My point exactly - the NFHS desire for "no exceptions" is turned on it's head here with SKF and what down, formation, and specific act are you attempting. This is a bit circular to try and explain to a new candidate and virtually impossible for them to understand by "simply reading" all of the applicable rules in text. I had seen some years back (before MA went NFHS) an excellent row and column table that I believe was an almost perfect representation of the "options" but I haven't seen it since then. I think that I will try recreating that table and post it here for comment. Stay tuned.
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The Fed hates exceptions. Until they don't.
I'll have to dig back through my state clinic notes. Our state supervisor laid out a fairly simple explanation at one of our pre-season meetings some time back.
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A-11 — the gift that keeps on giving. >:D
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My point exactly - the NFHS desire for "no exceptions" is turned on it's head here with SKF and what down, formation, and specific act are you attempting. This is a bit circular to try and explain to a new candidate and virtually impossible for them to understand by "simply reading" all of the applicable rules in text.
Sometimes, you just have to read slower and more carefully, and maybe even take smaller bites & chew more.
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Try explaining it this way:
Team A must have 5 linemen numbered 50-79 for a legal formation; UNLESS
(1) It’s 4th down & they are in punt or FG formation
(2) It’s 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down & they are in FG formation. In this case, the “wrong” numbered player must be the snapper & must be an interior lineman.
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The Fed hates exceptions. Until they don't.
I'll have to dig back through my state clinic notes. Our state supervisor laid out a fairly simple explanation at one of our pre-season meetings some time back.
7-2-5b Exception was re-written and divided into Exception 1 and Exception 2 by the Rules Committee in 2009
I agree these exceptions are very long (better said too long) and also can be hard to comprehend.
They were written as they are to eliminate the A-11 offense on 1, 2 and 3rd downs. The A-11 offense can still however, be ran, in all its glory, on any 4th down.
If you can devise a way to say everything that is provided within those two exceptions in a much shorter fashion, I would love to see it.
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4th down the rule is fine the way it is.
1st ,2nd, or 3rd down all numbering exceptions are OK if you line up in a scrimmage kick formation and kick the ball. If you do not actually kick the ball (for any reason) the numbering exception would not apply except for the snapper. The flag would be thrown "Late" when it is apparent the ball was not kicked.
I can assure you that in Southern California 99.4% of the crews do not notice problems with the numbering on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down field goals. Most of the crews I have observed don't notice that #94 has been playing left tackle most of the game. >:D We seem not to observe and track numbers very well.
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I disagree with this. Can you provide rule or casebook support for this?
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Sorry that I was not clear- I was not explaining the current rule. Instead I was thinking "out loud" about how to simplify the scrimmage kick formation exceptions and still eliminate the A-11 offense in response to KWH's post.
I think there are two major concerns with the current situation: a) teams not able to deploy their normal field goal personnel on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down; and b) rules confusion and required "extra vigilance" on the part of the officials
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Gotcha. So you were brainstorming possible hypothetical rule changes?