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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: BG5 on September 28, 2020, 11:10:52 AM
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Gents,
If a punt is snapped over the punters head say 15 yards and the punter then gets it and punts the ball straight up in the air (ball never crosses the LOS) and R muffs the ball and K jumps on it then what do we have?
Shouldnt the ball go to R 1st and 10 since the ball did not cross the LOS?
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what you actually have is K in possession of the ball behind the line to gain after 4th down. The touching by R is insignificant because it did not happen beyond the neutral zone. The ball will rightly belong to R because K did not reach the line to gain.
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I like to think of a punt that doesn't cross the line of scrimmage as K's ball and still part of the down. It's not really a 'punt' yet as to how we normally think of a punt. Because before it has crossed the line of scrimmage, K can legally catch this 'punt' and advance it like a forward pass. If the ball is caught or recovered after hitting the ground, we don't treat the 'punt' as a regular punt, but rather the same outcome as fumble by K recovered by K that can be advanced. And since this is still part of the down, K needs to get to the first down marker to get a first down. If the 'punt' was done on 4th down, if K doesn't get to the first down marker, it's the same as any other non-punt play, it's now R/B's ball. If the 'punt' was recovered before the line of scrimmage was done on 3rd down, then the next down is 4th down.
Once the kick crosses the line of scrimmage, now this 'punt' is treated like a normal punt we all know... where R can muff it, R can fair catch it, can be downed by K, etc.
This is one of the reasons a wingman waits until the punt has crossed the line before moving downfield. Once I move downfield, the weird before the line of scrimmage punting rules are gone. While I stand there, those weird rules are in effect.
And if the punt goes downfield, then somehow comes back behind the line of scrimmage, those rules do NOT go back into effect like passing rules do.
Example: K 4th and 10 at K20. K punts the ball to the K25, which then bounces off the ground and rolls back to the K19. K CANNOT pick the ball up to try to gain yards. Once K picks up the ball, they have 'downed' the ball. The before-the-line-of-scrimmage rules aren't available anymore.
Example: A 4th and 10 at the A20. A runs the ball to the A25, reverses course back to the A19. A can now legally pass the ball if they'd like. Legal forward passing is now available again.
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I like to think of a punt that doesn't cross the line of scrimmage as K's ball and still part of the down. It's not really a 'punt' yet as to how we normally think of a punt. Because before it has crossed the line of scrimmage, K can legally catch this 'punt' and advance it like a forward pass. If the ball is caught or recovered after hitting the ground, we don't treat the 'punt' as a regular punt, but rather the same outcome as fumble by K recovered by K that can be advanced. And since this is still part of the down, K needs to get to the first down marker to get a first down. If the 'punt' was done on 4th down, if K doesn't get to the first down marker, it's the same as any other non-punt play, it's now R/B's ball. If the 'punt' was recovered before the line of scrimmage was done on 3rd down, then the next down is 4th down.
Once the kick crosses the line of scrimmage, now this 'punt' is treated like a normal punt we all know... where R can muff it, R can fair catch it, can be downed by K, etc.
This is one of the reasons a wingman waits until the punt has crossed the line before moving downfield. Once I move downfield, the weird before the line of scrimmage punting rules are gone. While I stand there, those weird rules are in effect.
And if the punt goes downfield, then somehow comes back behind the line of scrimmage, those rules do NOT go back into effect like passing rules do.
Example: K 4th and 10 at K20. K punts the ball to the K25, which then bounces off the ground and rolls back to the K19. K CANNOT pick the ball up to try to gain yards. Once K picks up the ball, they have 'downed' the ball. The before-the-line-of-scrimmage rules aren't available anymore.
Example: A 4th and 10 at the A20. A runs the ball to the A25, reverses course back to the A19. A can now legally pass the ball if they'd like. Legal forward passing is now available again.
You may want to revisit this section in the rule book.
6.2.3 SITUATION A:
A scrimmage kick by K1 is partially blocked in the neutral zone by R1. The kick goes beyond the neutral zone where R2 muffs it back behind the neutral zone. K2 recovers behind the neutral zone and advances across R’s goal line.
RULING: Touchdown for K.
COMMENT: The right of the kickers to advance their recovered scrimmage kick depends entirely upon whether the kick is recovered in, behind or beyond the neutral zone. Whether the kick went beyond the neutral zone and then rebounded behind it is of no consequence. The spot of recovery is the only factor. If the recovery is in or behind the neutral zone, K may advance. If the recovery is beyond the neutral zone, K may recover, but may not advance.
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what you actually have is K in possession of the ball behind the line to gain after 4th down. The touching by R is insignificant because it did not happen beyond the neutral zone. The ball will rightly belong to R because K did not reach the line to gain.
this totally makes sense because it would avoid any trickery whereby the punter could
1) intentionally kick the ball into the defenders hoping it touches one of them believing then that K could recover and maintain posession....(K could advance however).
2. anytime R touches the ball behind the line of scrimmage in a punt situation it would be like blocking a punt. Blocks are not considered 'muffs'. If a k punt is block and k recovers does K maintain posession? No of course not.
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Where R touches it is most important. If R touches a kick beyond the NZ then a new series will be awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down, even if the ball rebounds back behind the line. If r touches it then it rebounds back behind the line, K can still pick it up, run with it, pass it or kick it again. If they pass it and the pass is incomplete, it’s first down for K. If they run with it and are tackled behind the line it’s first down for K. If they kick it again and the ball goes beyond the neutral zone and r recovers it’s r ball.
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All touching behind the NZ on kicks is ignored. That makes everything easier.
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If they kick it again and the ball goes beyond the neutral zone and r recovers it’s r ball.
Isn’t it R’s possession even if K “recovers”?
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Yes. I didn’t post an exhaustive list of possible outcomes. Just a sample to illustrate the difference between a ball touched by r beyond as opposed to behind the NZ. If K kicks it again, normal kicking rules apply and the first time r touched the ball is ignored. Basically we start all over again.
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Isn’t it R’s possession even if K “recovers”?
Yes, unless K advanced it beyond the line to gain.
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Where R touches it is most important. If R touches a kick beyond the NZ then a new series will be awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down, even if the ball rebounds back behind the line. If r touches it then it rebounds back behind the line, K can still pick it up, run with it, pass it or kick it again. If they pass it and the pass is incomplete, it’s first down for K. If they run with it and are tackled behind the line it’s first down for K. If they kick it again and the ball goes beyond the neutral zone and r recovers it’s r ball.
If it is an incomplete pass from the description above the new series is established for K from the yardline where they threw the pass. This on will probably require the officials having a conversation with team R regarding the outcome of the play.
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I believe its 1-10 from the previous spot on the incomplete.
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I believe you.
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If it is an incomplete pass from the description above the new series is established for K from the yardline where they threw the pass. This on will probably require the officials having a conversation with team R regarding the outcome of the play.
Well, it’s 1/10 for K from the previous spot, which is the succeeding spot for any incomplete pass from behind the NZ. The trick on this scenario will be to keep R’s coach as calm as possible when you explain the ruling to him.
“Coach, BY RULE it’s 1/10 for the team in final possession after the receiving team muffs a punt past the LOS.”
I would take as much time as necessary with him, and offer to email him the applicable rules and case plays on Monday. It would also take quite a lot for him to earn an USC flag in this unusual circumstance.
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Yeah, most are going to birth a big ole heifer on this one if it occurs. He's going to have to say a "magic word" to buy a flag if this play pops up.
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We had this one year minus the pass attempt. K’s kick went about 10yds straight up. R ran under it, muffed it. K recovered behind the line. It took a while to settle R’s coach down enough to even talk with him. Once he cooled off and we explained that whenever R touches a kick beyond the NZ, it’s going to be first and ten for the team who has it at the end of the down, he accepted it and moved on. I did email him the rule and case references the next day. He called and thanked me. It was kinda cool.
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My recollection is that I've only had this occur once, in a JV game no less, in my now 27 years of officiating. I remember one of the two teams and I can remember it was a short punt towards my side but slightly beyond me. It rebounded off the R players chest and rolled all the way back to K's backfield. I can't remember if they picked it up and ran or just fell on it but we gave them a 1&10.
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We had this one year minus the pass attempt. K’s kick went about 10yds straight up. R ran under it, muffed it. K recovered behind the line. It took a while to settle R’s coach down enough to even talk with him. Once he cooled off and we explained that whenever R touches a kick beyond the NZ, it’s going to be first and ten for the team who has it at the end of the down, he accepted it and moved on. I did email him the rule and case references the next day. He called and thanked me. It was kinda cool.
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A great example of why it's always better to be "nice" (and patient), until, and unless, it really becomes necessary to become "NOT nice."
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Wow I don’t know what I was thinking about when I posted but certainly not the rules. Definitely 1st and 10 from previous spot on an incomplete pass in the situation above.
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