Post by: Ralph Damren on February 11, 2021, 08:22:18 AM
YOU MAKE THE CALL.....
Post by: Derek Teigen on February 11, 2021, 09:07:25 AM
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 11, 2021, 09:10:53 AM
R ball 1st and 10 @23. the five yard penalty is declined and the play is accepted. The Illegal Formation penalty is a live ball foul.A missed field goal that breaks the plane of the goal line is a touchback.
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Post by: Derek Teigen on February 11, 2021, 09:20:01 AM
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 11, 2021, 09:28:00 AM
check out 10.4.2 the basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick.You declined the penalty, remember? Plus, the succeeding spot is the 20. If you tack on the foul it would be 1 and 10 at the 25.
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Post by: Etref on February 11, 2021, 11:00:25 AM
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 11, 2021, 11:03:58 AM
If you decline the penalty how do you have a 5 yard mark off?My point exactly. If you decline the penalty it’s r’s ball at the twenty because a kick missed wide right has crossed the plane of the goal line. Which is what Derek suggested.
Then, he pointed us to the exception. If you decide to accept the foul and apply the 10-4-2 exception, the basic spot for the foul is the twenty. Add five yards to that and it’s 1 and ten at the 25.
Sorry, I guess I was talking in shorthand. I thought we could make the connection.
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Post by: CalhounLJ on February 11, 2021, 12:41:42 PM
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Post by: Ralph Damren on February 11, 2021, 12:56:45 PM
My point exactly. If you decline the penalty it’s r’s ball at the twenty because a kick missed wide right has crossed the plane of the goal line. Which is what Derek suggested.
Then, he pointed us to the exception. If you decide to accept the foul and apply the 10-4-2 exception, the basic spot for the foul is the twenty. Add five yards to that and it’s 1 and ten at the 25.
Sorry, I guess I was talking in shorthand. I thought we could make the connection.
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aWaRd Calhoun nailed it. R would accept the penalty w/tack-on to succeeding spot. Same would not be true on PAT kick as tack-on is not available if K is next to put the ball in play (the kickoff).
aWaRd Cal
Post by: AlUpstateNY on February 11, 2021, 03:43:35 PM
Excuse my confusion, If R, were to decline K's loose ball foul, the 4th down would count and R would take possession at the R 20 ydln due to the touchback.
If R were to accept K's loose ball foul, wouldn't K retain possession, subject to the administration of the penalty, with the opportunity to repeat their 4th down (to either attempt another FG, or run some other play of their choosing) ?
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 11, 2021, 03:50:13 PM
Excuse my confusion, If R, were to decline K's loose ball foul, the 4th down would count and R would take possession at the R 20 ydln due to the touchback.Because a field goal attempt is a scrimmage kick, the 10-4-2 exception gives R 3 options.
If R were to accept K's loose ball foul, wouldn't K retain possession, subject to the administration of the penalty, with the opportunity to repeat their 4th down (to either attempt another FG, or run some other play of their choosing) ?
1. R can decline the penalty and take the touchback. Ball at 20.
2. R can accept the penalty from the previous spot, mark off 5 and K will replay 4th down.
3. R can accept the penalty, and choose to have it enforced from the succeeding spot, which is the 20.
The most logical for R in most situations is the succeeding spot option. Their ball 1 and 10 from the 25.
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Post by: Derek Teigen on February 11, 2021, 05:05:39 PM
Congrats Calhoun! I just knew there would be more to this deceptively simple case play!!!
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 11, 2021, 05:06:59 PM
Congrats Calhoun! I just knew there would be more to this deceptively simple case play!!!Yep. You have to watch Ralph. He’s crafty.
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Post by: Derek Teigen on February 11, 2021, 06:22:11 PM
Let’s put another angle on this play. Same situation, but K centers the upright. Band plays, score!!!! Now what? And why?
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it would forece a re-kick or re play and be k ball 4th and 15 @ the 28.
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 11, 2021, 09:16:39 PM
it would forece a re-kick or re play and be k ball 4th and 15 @ the 28.Winner winner chicken dinner.
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Post by: bama_stripes on February 12, 2021, 06:23:31 AM
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 12, 2021, 07:45:17 AM
Yet another reason for the FED “no crime goes unpunished” philosophy to apply to only major distance safety fouls.I agree in regard to philosophy. But I think this situation falls under the attempt to reduce rekicks, which is safety-related.
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Post by: AlUpstateNY on February 12, 2021, 10:11:07 AM
Forgive me Ralph, I must have a splinter in my eye preventing me from seeing this situation correctly.
As I understand the situation, K attempts a FG on 4th down, but commits a (live) loose ball foul (at the snap). FG misses, so R chooses to decline the penalty rather than accept it. If the penalty wre accepted, the 10-4-2 exception provides an option to enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot (R's 20 YL (touchback) or 5 yards further back.
By choosing to accept the penalty, doesn't R, in selecting the penalty yardage, give K the advantage of "replaying the down", which would maintain K's possession and the opportunity to repeat 4th down, as they see fit, giving K another opportunity to repeat their FG attempt, rather than ending K's series (on downs) and taking possession of the ball to start a new series of their own ?
What am I missing?
Post by: Badger1 on February 12, 2021, 11:04:08 AM
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on February 12, 2021, 02:33:43 PM
Does an Illegal Formation foul, or any K foul which occurs simultaneously with the snap, qualify as a " ..... during a free or scrimmage kick down ..." foul? I'm thinking yes it does so I'd agree that there are 3 options for R here.
1. Accept the penalty and take the ball at the 25 (succeeding spot + 5yds)
2. Decline the penalty and take the ball at the 20 (succeeding spot) - the result of the play.
3. Accept the penalty and have K re-kick -5yds (I doubt it)
Most important thing here is that we give R the correct options in the order that they are most beneficial to R.
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 12, 2021, 02:34:55 PM
Because a field goal attempt is a scrimmage kick, the 10-4-2 exception gives R 3 options.Retweet
1. R can decline the penalty and take the touchback. Ball at 20.
2. R can accept the penalty from the previous spot, mark off 5 and K will replay 4th down.
3. R can accept the penalty, and choose to have it enforced from the succeeding spot, which is the 20.
The most logical for R in most situations is the succeeding spot option. Their ball 1 and 10 from the 25.
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Post by: refjeff on February 12, 2021, 02:52:21 PM
So again, let's look at the specific wording that was tweaked in 2018. The key words in 10-4-2 are " ..... during a free or scrimmage kick down ..." for the 10-4-2 exception language to apply to this play as originally posted.2.7.1 A down is action which starts with a legal snap ... So your thinking is correct.
Does an Illegal Formation foul, or any K foul which occurs simultaneously with the snap, qualify as a " ..... during a free or scrimmage kick down ..." foul? I'm thinking yes it does so I'd agree that there are 3 options for R here.
1. Accept the penalty and take the ball at the 25 (succeeding spot + 5yds)
2. Decline the penalty and take the ball at the 20 (succeeding spot) - the result of the play.
3. Accept the penalty and have K re-kick -5yds (I doubt it)
Most important thing here is that we give R the correct options in the order that they are most beneficial to R.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on February 12, 2021, 06:34:20 PM
check out 10.4.2 the basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick.
The 10-4-2 Exception (#3) seems to provide an unusually distinct advantage to R, when applied to this particular scenario (adding BOTH loss of the right to repeat the down PLUS yardage penalty to acceptance of the penalty. As a 2018 rule adjustment, I checked the 2018 POE and found nothing explanatory.
However, the "Comments on the 2018 Rules Changes" in the 2018 Rules Book offered the following, "In an effort to reduce re-kicks, further minimize risk and insure that appropriate penalties are in place for all fouls, the committee has added an option for fouls committed by the kicking team during free and scrimmage kicks. The change would allow the receiving team all of the previous options as well as accepting the distant penalty at the end of the down."
Still seems kind of one-sided, but it is what it is, and our role remains to enforce it, as the rule makers decide it is. Thanks for highlighting it Ralph and generating discussion.
Post by: bama_stripes on February 13, 2021, 07:32:10 AM
I agree in regard to philosophy. But I think this situation falls under the attempt to reduce rekicks, which is safety-related.
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Then we need an exception (OOH-that word!) for missed FGs. Nobody’s getting hurt on FG attempts anyway.
:sTiR:
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 13, 2021, 07:54:25 AM
Then we need an exception (OOH-that word!) for missed FGs. Nobody’s getting hurt on FG attempts anyway.I agree completely.
:sTiR:
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Post by: HLinNC on February 13, 2021, 08:34:55 AM
Quote
Then we need an exception (OOH-that word!)
hEaDbAnG cRaZy >:(
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on February 13, 2021, 08:44:50 AM
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 13, 2021, 08:48:33 AM
Since this already is an exception, don't we actually need an exception to the exception? ???True, but we don’t normally do that. So that would have to be an exception.
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/3stokRU38tr3y/giphy.gif)
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Post by: AlUpstateNY on February 13, 2021, 08:58:09 AM
Post by: refjeff on February 14, 2021, 02:07:43 PM
Then we need an exception (OOH-that word!) for missed FGs. Nobody’s getting hurt on FG attempts anyway.Unless it's short, and returned.
:sTiR: :sTiR:
Post by: Ralph Damren on June 22, 2021, 06:58:08 AM
Post by: ElvisLives on June 24, 2021, 10:40:47 AM
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 24, 2021, 10:59:29 AM
10-4-2 Exception:
EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a legal free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) prior to the end of the kick when K will not be next to put the ball in play.
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Post by: jgf6 on June 24, 2021, 01:39:09 PM
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 24, 2021, 01:42:21 PM
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Post by: ncwingman on June 24, 2021, 02:26:11 PM
Yes. If the score is tied and K misses the game winning field goal and fouls during the kick R can take the penalty and have it enforced at the succeeding spot.
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Ooh, wait... I think there's a catch here.
Quote
The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a legal free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) prior to the end of the kick when K will not be next to put the ball in play.
K misses the game winning field goal, but had an illegal formation.
K then wins the overtime coin toss and elects to go on offense first. K is now the next to put the ball in play. Does R lose the option to enforce the penalty?
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 24, 2021, 02:37:36 PM
Ooh, wait... I think there's a catch here.That’s an interesting question, but after much ponderance I’m going to say no. R can still take the penalty in overtime even if the team that was K at the end of regulation is the first to put the ball in play.
K misses the game winning field goal, but had an illegal formation.
K then wins the overtime coin toss and elects to go on offense first. K is now the next to put the ball in play. Does R lose the option to enforce the penalty?
Here’s my rationale: the consideration as to who will put the ball in play is made immediately at the end of the play. If the result of the play is a missed field goal, the ball belongs to R at the end of that play, providing K has not recovered the kick due to muff or fumble. Therefore, the exception is applied at that point. The fact that a later decision after the penalty choice is made gives the ball back to the team that kicked it to end regulation is irrelevant as to penalty administration.
At least that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
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Post by: CalhounLJ on June 24, 2021, 03:59:14 PM
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Post by: bossman72 on June 25, 2021, 08:27:23 AM
NO!
Not according to the NFHS Rules Book.
This is a live ball foul that occurred during a non-scoring regulation play, and, in this situation, the penalty, if accepted, will extend regulation play with an untimed down.
WHY?
Their are two rules which are applicable on this play.
3-3-3...A period shall be extended by an untimed down if the following occurs during a down in which time expires:
a. There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted, except for those listed in 3-3-4b.
10-4-2 EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a legal free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) prior to the end of the kick, when K is not next to put the ball in play.
Because the result of the play is a touchback,
R has three choices:
1) Decline the penalty and proceed to the overtime coin toss.
2) Accept the penalty with enforcement from the succeeding spot on an untimed down (1st and 10 for R on the R25)
3) Accept the penalty with enforcement from the previous spot on an untimed down (4th and 5 for K after a 5-yard penalty from the previous spot) (Not a very likely choice)
Correct, you would have to extend the period to enforce the ILF foul.
8-4-3 lets you bridge fouls to the succeeding spot, but only for fouls by R and on SUCCESSFUL field goals. So if this was an R foul, say roughing the kicker, and they made the field goal, you can bridge it to OT.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on June 25, 2021, 09:11:26 AM
Situations B, L, & J all describe instances, for different type fouls (live ball/dead ball) where "succeeding spot" is determined, in the overtime period, after application of penalty enforcement, and selection by the winner of the OT coin flip.
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 25, 2021, 10:23:39 AM
Correct, you would have to extend the period to enforce the ILF foul.So essentially what you all are saying is that the period is not over unless/until R declines the foul? Therefore the 10-4-2 succeeding spot is the dead ball spot?
8-4-3 lets you bridge fouls to the succeeding spot, but only for fouls by R and on SUCCESSFUL field goals. So if this was an R foul, say roughing the kicker, and they made the field goal, you can bridge it to OT.
This actually makes sense.
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Post by: CalhounLJ on June 25, 2021, 11:21:19 AM
YepI’m still having trouble with the succeeding spot language of the 10-4-2 exception. Am I wrong in saying that in every other circumstance, on a play during the last play of a tie game, the succeeding spot would be the first play of overtime?
10-4-2 Exception:
EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a legal free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) prior to the end of the kick when K will not be next to put the ball in play.
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For example, the play in question. Take the penalty out of the equation. At the end of this play, the half is over and the succeeding spot is the first play of overtime.
If the field goal is good creating the tie and the foul is by R, the succeeding spot is the first play in overtime.
If either team commits a live ball foul treated like a dead ball foul we mark it off from the succeeding spot which is the first play of the overtime.
If either team commits a dead ball foul after the play is over we mark it off from the succeeding spot which is the first play in overtime.
But when we add the K penalty now we have to manufacture a different succeeding spot to make it work. Something doesn’t feel right.
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Post by: CalhounLJ on June 25, 2021, 11:51:00 AM
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Post by: KWH on June 25, 2021, 12:04:18 PM
Apparently, NOT. 2020 "Resolving Tied Games" Situation F (pg 87) suggests "A" responding to a live ball foul by B, on a successful Try, "Will likely take enforcement at the succeeding spot to begin overtime. (and then cautions) Game officials must be certain to explain the options clearly, not only during penalty administration, but also during the OT coin toss."
Situations B, L, & J all describe instances, for different type fouls (live ball/dead ball) where "succeeding spot" is determined, in the overtime period, after application of penalty enforcement, and selection by the winner of the OT coin flip.
ALF -
Thank you for pointing out these four, Rules Book, OT, Case Book plays, however, they really have nothing to do with the conversation at hand.
Situation F is a live-ball foul by the opponent of a successful 2-point try. - Succeeding spot enforcement, the only succeeding spot is start of OT as explained in the Rules Book.
Situation B is a dead ball foul that occurs AFTER the end of regulation - Succeeding spot enforcement, the only succeeding spot is start of OT as explained in the Rules Book.
Situation L is a live-ball foul by the opponent of a successful 1-point try. - Succeeding spot enforcement, however, K has the option, replay the try, go for 2 (after enforcement of a half-the distance penalty) and win the game if they are successful / lose if they are unsuccessful, or have the penalty enforced at the start of OT as explained in the Rules Book.
Situation J is a dead ball foul that occurs AFTER the end of regulation - Succeeding spot enforcement, the only succeeding spot is start of OT as explained in the Rules Book.
However, in the play we are discussing, K committed a live ball foul during a non-scoring play which occurred during the last timed down of regulation.
* R can choose to accept the penalty with enforcement from the previous spot, replay with an untimed down, 4th and 15
* R can choose to accept the penalty with enforcement from the succeeding spot, replay with an untimed down, 1st and 10 for R. (Likely)
* R can choose to decline the penalty and proceed to overtime coin toss. (Possible, but not likely)
What R may NOT choose to do, is carry the penalty enforcement for this particular foul into overtime.
Fouls for which the penalty may be enforced at the start of OT
* Live ball fouls by the opponent of the successful Field Goal scoring team. (They would also have the option to replay this down in Regulation) 8-4-3
* Live ball fouls by the opponent of the successful 1-point try scoring team. (They would also have the option to replay this down in Regulation) 8-3-5
* Live ball fouls by the opponent of the successful 2-point try scoring team. 8-3-5
* Any dead ball foul committed while the ball was live, by the opponent of a successful Field goal, or successful try. 10-4-5b
* Any dead ball foul occurring after the end of regulation. 10-4-5b
Fouls for which the penalty may NOT be enforced at the start of OT (Unless the OT starts with a kickoff)
* Live ball fouls, committed by the opponent of the 6-point touchdown scoring team. 8-2-2 & 8-2-3
* Dead ball fouls occurring during a 6-point touchdown scoring team. 8-2-4
* Dead ball fouls occurring after a 6-point touchdown and prior to the initial read-for-play on the try 8-2-5
* Any accepted live ball foul occurring during a non-scoring play regulation. 3-3-3a & 10-4-2 EXCEPTION (Say for example the play we are discussing)
I hope this helps clear things up rather than muddy the waters! tiphat:
Post by: AlUpstateNY on June 25, 2021, 01:50:06 PM
For this play, missed FG: If the score is tied and time runs out in the 4th Qtr during the kick, can this foul be carried over into overtime? The succeeding spot is now in the overtime period.
I was referring to J9f6's question (1:39:09 yesterday) "For this play, missed FG: If the score is tied and time runs out in the 4th Qtr during the kick, can this foul be carried over into overtime? The succeeding spot is now in the overtime period.", which I understood to relate specifically to "Overtime".
Post by: KWH on June 25, 2021, 08:15:10 PM
For this play, missed FG: If the score is tied and time runs out in the 4th Qtr during the kick, can this foul be carried over into overtime? The succeeding spot is now in the overtime period.
No!
That is not an option in this situation!
Please review my recent post just above this one for rulings!
Post by: bama_stripes on June 26, 2021, 07:26:56 AM
* R can choose to accept the penalty with enforcement from the previous spot, replay with an untimed down, 4th and 5 for K. (Any official who allows this option deservers a 9-iron to the nards)
Really? If the FG attempt was a long one, R might elect to move K back 5 yards so as to have the chance at a return for a TD. (Yes, the 2013 Iron Bowl Kick Six is still fresh in my mind)
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 26, 2021, 07:39:27 AM
Really? If the FG attempt was a long one, R might elect to move K back 5 yards so as to have the chance at a return for a TD. (Yes, the 2013 Iron Bowl Kick Six is still fresh in my mind)I thought the same thing but if I’m K in this situation I’m taking a knee and going to overtime.
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Post by: CalhounLJ on June 26, 2021, 11:36:17 AM
ART. 10 ... The succeeding spot is where the ball would next be snapped or free kicked if a foul had not occurred.
In the posted situation, this spot would be the first play of the overtime period. No way to turn or twist it to make it different from that. If K had not fouled, the next time the ball would have been snapped would be the first play in overtime. That’s the succeeding spot.
I’m cool with wanting to get the penalty resolved before we get to overtime, but there has to be another way. Maybe if we don’t want to bridge this foul the language could be changed to read dead ball spot as an option instead of succeeding spot. Similar to the roughing the passer option:
ART. 5 ... The enforcement spot is the dead ball spot for roughing the passer when the dead ball spot is beyond the neutral zone and there has been no change of team possession.
The new language would read specifically:
EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the DEAD BALL spot for fouls by K during a legal free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) prior to the end of the kick when K will not be next to put the ball in play.
this spot would be the same as the succeeding spot in the vast majority of cases, but would also rectify this particular problem. It also gives us a way to honor an untimed down to end the period while allowing R to take the play and the foul.
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Post by: KWH on June 26, 2021, 01:36:23 PM
Calhoun -
Let me try a different approach:
I'm sure you have had the opportunity to hear a TV common-tater say something similar to: "Remember, a period can not end on an excepted penalty!"
Well, while this statement is not 100% true, across the board, for all fouls, in all levels of football; in NFHS play, it is completely true for accepted Live Ball Fouls except those fouls listed in 3-3-4b.
Since our foul is not listed in 3-3-4b, that makes this simple; it means Rule 3-3-3a applies and, if accepted, the period must be extended for an untimed down.
So...in our situation...
* If the offended team chooses to accept the penalty for a foul which occurred in regulation time, the penalty is enforced in regulation, and, the period is extended for an untimed down in regulation.
* If the offended team chooses to roll directly into overtime, they SHALL decline the existing penalty to do so.
10-2-2 EXCEPTION is not applicable until Rule 3-3-4 has been satisfied.
This interpretation is supported by both Rule 3-3-4b and NFHS Football Fundamental II. 5.
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 26, 2021, 01:40:28 PM
Calhoun -I understand completely and am onboard with the principle. The problem is the problem the 10-4-2 exception has unintentionally created in this situation. There is no way under current rules we can apply 10-4-2exception in this case because the succeeding spot is not in the regulation game. It’s in the overtime period.
Let me try a different approach:
I'm sure you have had the opportunity to hear a TV common-tater say something similar to: "Remember, a period can not end on an excepted penalty!"
Well, while this statement is not 100% true, across the board, for all fouls, in all levels of football; in NFHS play, it is completely true for accepted Live Ball Fouls except those fouls listed in 3-3-4b.
Since our foul is not listed in 3-3-4b, that makes this simple; it means Rule 3-3-3a applies and, if accepted, the period must be extended for an untimed down.
So...in our situation...
* If the offended team chooses to accept the penalty for a foul which occurred in regulation time, the penalty is enforced in regulation, and, the period is extended for an untimed down in regulation.
* If the offended team chooses to roll directly into overtime, they SHALL decline the existing penalty to do so.
10-2-2 EXCEPTION is not applicable until Rule 3-3-4 has been satisfied.
This interpretation is supported by both Rule 3-3-4b and NFHS Football Fundamental II. 5.
Take away the 10-4-2 exception and I agree wholeheartedly with you. To get to overtime R would either have to accept K’s penalty with enforcement from previous spot and a replay with untimed down or decline and go to overtime.
As I’ve already stated the third option succeeding spot enforcement is not available to R because to get there we have to begin overtime and we can’t begin overtime if R accepts the foul.
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Post by: CalhounLJ on June 26, 2021, 03:17:22 PM
Do you see the dilemma? The issue is the language of the 10-4-2 exception. It is impossible for R to apply this exception in this situation.
Your quote:
*R can choose to accept the penalty with enforcement from the previous spot, replay with an untimed down, 4th and 5 for K. (Any official who allows this option deservers a 9-iron to the nards)
* R can choose to accept the penalty with enforcement from the succeeding spot, replay with an untimed down, 1st and 10 for R. (Likely)
* R can choose to decline the penalty and proceed to overtime coin toss. (Possible, but not likely)
What R may NOT choose to do, is carry the penalty enforcement for this particular foul into overtime.
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Post by: KWH on June 26, 2021, 05:35:24 PM
* this is the part of your interpretation I’m having trouble with. The second * suggests R can take the penalty with succeeding spot enforcement at the 20. I disagree with this because the 20 is not and cannot be the succeeding spot in this play situation. The definition of succeeding spot prohibits it. I understand and agree with the final statement that R cannot choose to have this foul enforced in overtime. I was wrong about that in my initial response to the question.
Oh, but, by rule, the definition of succeeding spot DOES allow it.
In our play, by rule, (6-3-1b), the result of the play is a touchback.
But wait, we had an ILF foul on K.
In our play then, by rule, (10-4-5d), the basic spot is the succeeding spot because the final result was a touchback.
Do you see the dilemma? The issue is the language of the 10-4-2 exception. It is impossible for R to apply this exception in this situation.
No. To retain possession of the ball, R may choose to invoke rule 10-4-2 EXCEPTION to advance the ball from the R-20 (succeeding spot) to the R-25 yard line and Regulation play is extended for one untimed down as per rule 3-3-3a. R's ball, 1st and 10 on the R-25 yard line.
Your quote:
* R can choose to accept the penalty with enforcement from the previous spot, replay with an untimed down, 4th and 155for K. (Any official who allows this option deservers a 9-iron to the nards) ( <--- "15" is a Senior moment correction)
* R can choose to accept the penalty with enforcement from the succeeding spot, replay with an untimed down, 1st and 10 for R on the R-25 yard line. (Likely)
* R can choose to decline the penalty and proceed to overtime coin toss. (Possible, but not likely)
What R may NOT choose to do, is carry the penalty enforcement for this particular foul into overtime.
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Does that help? ^talk
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 26, 2021, 05:56:59 PM
OK Calhoun, we are damned near there, lets break it down:/color]Not really. I understand your explanation, but it doesn’t work according to the definition of succeeding spot. The definition of a succeeding spot is where the ball would next be put in play if there were no foul. In this particular situation that is NOT R20, it’s the first play of overtime. If there were no foul in this particular play my U would not spot the ball on the R20. I would hold it up declare the regulation over and we would go to overtime. Then depending on the choices by the coaches, my U would spot the ball on a 10 yd line. That’s the succeeding spot.
Oh, but, by rule, the definition of succeeding spot DOES allow it.
In our play, by rule, (6-3-1b), the result of the play is a touchback.
But wait, we had an ILF foul on K.
In our play then, by rule, (10-4-5d), the basic spot is the succeeding spot because the final result was a touchback.
No. To retain possession of the ball, R may choose to invoke rule 10-4-2 EXCEPTION to advance the ball from the R-20 (succeeding spot) to the R-25 yard line and Regulation play is extended for one untimed down as per rule 3-3-3a. R's ball, 1st and 10 on the R-25 yard line.
Does that help? ^talk
That’s my hang up.
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Post by: CalhounLJ on June 26, 2021, 06:31:18 PM
Same way in this situation. The succeeding spot cannot be the R20 because there is no normal situation that the ball will EVER be snapped from that spot after the last play of the game.
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Post by: Ralph Damren on June 27, 2021, 04:41:15 PM
The untimed down rule would apply and R choices are :
(1) accept penalty and enforce from previous spot (dumb choice ::);
(2) accept penalty with tack-on and take ball @ 25 (good choice if going for "Hail Mary" 8] );
(3) decline penalty and off to O.T. yEs:
IMHO, only dead ball fouls or those treated as such can enforced in overtime.
IMHO, be ready to explain all the options available at the OT coin toss.
FYI, I'm 75 years old.
FYI, I've been a Red Sox fan for 69 of them.
FYI, I don't believe they've beaten the dreaded Yankees in six straight games nAnA !
Life is good tR:oLl
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 27, 2021, 04:56:13 PM
To me, as far as the succeeding spot argument goes, this non scoring field goal situation is no different than a scoring field goal. Both have tack on options if a foul occurs. Only difference is for a scoring field goal the succeeding spot is the first spot in OT while in the non scoring play we have to use another “succeeding spot,” to make it work. This second succeeding spot that has been invented only applies in this one particular situation, and completely goes against the crystal clear definition of succeeding spot in the rulebook.
When you read the special enforcements of the field goal scoring plays, it says that K has a succeeding spot option for fouls by R, but doesn’t give the option to allow K to kick off with an untimed down after enforcement of the penalty on the last play in regulation of a tie game. Their only option is to enforce the penalty in OT. Why?
If the succeeding spot can be the R20 on what would have been a touchback in any other play, why can’t the succeeding spot be the K 40 for what would be the normal succeeding spot on any other play?
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Post by: Ralph Damren on June 27, 2021, 05:13:58 PM
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 27, 2021, 05:19:05 PM
IMHO, if the penalty was accepted, it would be an untimed down, as it was a live ball foul.I understand that completely and agree. Normal penalty enforcement would be previous spot replay with untimed down. The option to have succeeding spot enforcement on fouls by K is the problem. According to the definition of succeeding spot, that would be first play in overtime. But because of 3-3-3, we can’t go to overtime. We have to play an untimed down. We can’t do that from the SUCCEEDING spot. KWH suggests the R20 as an alternate succeeding spot in this case. But there is no conceivable world where the ball would be spotted at the R20 after the last play of regulation.
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Post by: CalhounLJ on June 27, 2021, 05:49:43 PM
Any other live ball foul with succeeding spot enforcement would be enforced from the spot where we begin the next period and the ensuing play would be the first play of that period.
We would not run the play with an untimed down and then begin the next period. On a succeeding spot penalty.
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Post by: Ralph Damren on June 28, 2021, 07:28:26 AM
Fellow forum friends, while Mr. Calhoun is highly respected by me, I beg to differ. My belief is based on the following :
(1) Rule 3-3-4 deals with an untimed down is NOT allowed and only mentions "succeeding spot" in regards to foul by the opponents of the scoring team where the team can elect to have the penalty enforced on the succeeding spot, the ensuing kickoff, next period.
(2) 3-3-4b states no untimed down for unsportsmanlike or nonplayer fouls. This tack-on foul is neither.
(3) 10-4-2 EXCPTION states that the exception is not available if K is next to put the ball in play. Depending on the outcome of the toss and choices prior to overtime, K may very well be next to put
the ball in play.
I'm one for keeping the game simple. Declining ^no K's foul is, IMHO, much easier than trying to explain and enforce the tack-on foul onto the first play of overtime. R could take the tack-on and try for a Hail-Mary,or decline and move to overtime. With that, my fellow forum friends I rest my case.
tiphat:
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 28, 2021, 09:06:49 AM
tiphat:
Post by: HLinNC on June 28, 2021, 09:18:14 AM
Post by: Ralph Damren on June 28, 2021, 12:41:48 PM
Believe me when I say nobody is more respected on this board by me than Ralph and KWH. their words are like the law of the Medes and Persians. They become law and cannot be changed. Hopefully I did not come across disrespectful or disagreeable while disagreeing. I simply have a philosophical problem with a rule interpretation opinion. Upon reflection, I realize Ralph, KWH, and I agree on two of the three applications in this situation, and like the old song says, "two out of three ain't bad." With that, I surrender.Thanks for the kind words, Calhoun.I'm usure if Medes and his buddies were good guys or not as I didn't take ancient history..On occasion we will pass a rule that comes in conflict with an existing one and we attempt to correct it. 2-41-10 provides the definition of the succeeding spot. Any suggestions to clarify would be welcomed. KWH was the author of the tack-on rule and does a good job of insuring what needs to be tweaked to make the new rule smooth.
tiphat:
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 28, 2021, 04:29:49 PM
Thanks for the kind words, Calhoun.I'm usure if Medes and his buddies were good guys or not as I didn't take ancient history..On occasion we will pass a rule that comes in conflict with an existing one and we attempt to correct it. 2-41-10 provides the definition of the succeeding spot. Any suggestions to clarify would be welcomed. KWH was the author of the tack-on rule and does a good job of insuring what needs to be tweaked to make the new rule smooth.Thanks Ralph. I very much would like clarification on the succeeding spot definition as it applies in the situation we’ve been discussing. Let me lay it out my question as clearly as possible.
First let’s start with the definition of succeeding spot:
2-41-10
ART. 10 ... The succeeding spot is where the ball would next be snapped or free kicked if a foul had not occurred.
Next, let’s consider the play in question. We have a missed field goal as time expires in the fourth quarter with the game tied in a state with overtime procedures. If this play happens with no foul occurring, where will the ball next be snapped?
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Post by: Ralph Damren on June 29, 2021, 11:23:12 AM
Thanks Ralph. I very much would like clarification on the succeeding spot definition as it applies in the situation we’ve been discussing. Let me lay it out my question as clearly as possible.Remembering that 10-4-2 EXCEPTION is an exception, we wouldn't want to add to the complexity. If there wasn't any foul, the period would be over. 3-3-4b doesn't restrict from an UTD so possibly adding to 3-3-3 :"There was an accepted 'tack-on' foul." would help to clear things up.
First let’s start with the definition of succeeding spot:
2-41-10
ART. 10 ... The succeeding spot is where the ball would next be snapped or free kicked if a foul had not occurred.
Next, let’s consider the play in question. We have a missed field goal as time expires in the fourth quarter with the game tied in a state with overtime procedures. If this play happens with no foul occurring, where will the ball next be snapped?
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:sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 29, 2021, 11:39:21 AM
Remembering that 10-4-2 EXCEPTION is an exception, we wouldn't want to add to the complexity. If there wasn't any foul, the period would be over.
Correct. So we would move to overtime and the succeeding spot would be the B10. Correct?
3-3-4b doesn't restrict from an UTD so possibly adding to 3-3-3 :"There was an accepted 'tack-on' foul." would help to clear things up.
:sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
Or restricting the application of the exception in this particular case. We've already determined that the best course of action for R is to decline the foul and go to overtime. Also, R still retains the right to accept the penalty with a replay from the previous spot during an untimed down. Just put verbiage in the exception to prohibit succeeding spot application at the end of the period/game because it conflicts with 3-3-3.
I'm not advocating for a tack on enforcement in this situation. I'm completely on board with the idea of
The solution to that conflict is not to invent another succeeding spot (R20) in conflict with the succeeding spot definition.
That's all I've been saying throughout this process. I'm amazed no one has even acknowledged such a conflict exists.
Post by: Ralph Damren on June 29, 2021, 12:55:34 PM
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 29, 2021, 12:58:21 PM
As I see it, the confusing part is on 10-4-2 EXCEPTION with the statement : "The basic spot may...be the SUCCEEDING SPOT for fouls..." Probably using "end of kick or run..." would have been less confusing. We often think of SUCCEEDING SPOT as action that occurs after the play has ended. Where the kick or run ends often determines where the succeeding spot will be. The only other succeeding spot fouls that occur while the ball is alive, that come to mind, are : Big ole Bubba, wandering out on the field to see what's happening but doesn't play (3-7-6), sideline interference (9-8-1k,9-8-3 & 9-4-3) and celebrating a TD before ya' git there.
Exactly! Maybe use "dead ball spot" or such like with the Roughing the Passer tack on.