Post by: Derek Teigen on February 21, 2021, 09:49:47 PM
I am thinking of a play where the qb receives the ball in shotgun and rolls right but is brought down by a face mask behind the line of scrimmage. The penalty would be enforced from the basic spot, which is the previous spot becaues it was a loose ball play.
In the same play, if the qb receives the hike directly from the center and rolls right but is brought down by a face mask behind the line of scrimmage would this penalty be enforced from the spot of the foul, which is the end of the run?
Post by: SCline on February 21, 2021, 10:45:06 PM
Quote
is my understanding correct that a hike to the quarterback in shot gun formation is a loose ball for the purposes of penalty enforcement and as long as the qb has the ball behind the line of scrimmage it is just a continuation of the loose ball play?
No. 10-3-1 & -2 the loose ball play does not include the action after the quarterback receives the snap. That action is a separate running play.
Quote
I am thinking of a play where the qb receives the ball in shotgun and rolls right but is brought down by a face mask behind the line of scrimmage. The penalty would be enforced from the basic spot, which is the previous spot becaues it was a loose ball play.
In the same play, if the qb receives the hike directly from the center and rolls right but is brought down by a face mask behind the line of scrimmage would this penalty be enforced from the spot of the foul, which is the end of the run?
In both instances the face mask penalty would be enforced from the end of the run.
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 22, 2021, 05:42:39 AM
is my understanding correct that a hike to the quarterback in shot gun formation is a loose ball for the purposes of penalty enforcement and as long as the qb has the ball behind the line of scrimmage it is just a continuation of the loose ball play?
You are correct that the snap here is part if a loose ball play. Any penalty that occurs during this interval is enforced as a loose ball play.
You are not correct on the second part of this statement. The loose ball play ended when the runner gained possession. A foul with runner in possession is enforced as a running play.
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Post by: NVFOA_Ump on February 22, 2021, 08:43:48 AM
Post by: bossman72 on February 22, 2021, 08:44:09 AM
In the same play, if the qb receives the hike directly from the center and rolls right but is brought down by a face mask behind the line of scrimmage would this penalty be enforced from the spot of the foul, which is the end of the run?
One thing I hate about the penalty enforcement rule is the word "play". People confuse it with "down". You can have multiple plays during the down. Think of it as "status of the ball at the time of the foul."
When the ball is snapped in shotgun, the ball is in loose ball status. QB receives the ball and scrambles, the ball is in run status. He is tackled by the facemask, so the ball was in run status at the time of the foul, so you enforce it from the end of that related run.
If the ball is in a loose ball status (say the QB throws the ball after he gets facemasked), all action prior to that loose ball get absorbed into that loose ball status/play. So, your basic spot would be the previous spot, because that run (QB scramble) gets converted from run to loose ball status.
Post by: HLinNC on February 22, 2021, 09:32:04 AM
Quote
The details, as they frequently are, come from Rule 2 - Definitions.
Which would also include using the term "snap" instead of "hike".
Post by: Derek Teigen on February 22, 2021, 09:33:47 AM
[/quote]
....if the qb continues to scramble even for some time after the face mask and then throws the ball it is all still one big 'loose ball' play during the 'down'?
got it. (I think). I have had referees ask me if during a defensive holding penalty if the holding occurred before or during the pass. It really wouldn't matter would it? The penalty under both would be enforced at the previous spot?
Post by: Derek Teigen on February 22, 2021, 09:39:40 AM
Which would also include using the term "snap" instead of "hike".
[/quote
The moderators, probably Kalle, is busy now devising a filter to auto correct the word 'hike' to 'snap'....... ;D
Post by: Derek Teigen on February 22, 2021, 09:42:37 AM
......edited to add that it still works. I typed 'l...a..t..e..r...a...l' and 'backward pass' replaced it automatically. An ingenious form of thought control!! hEaDbAnG
Post by: Derek Teigen on February 22, 2021, 09:50:34 AM
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that's tough on the offense if because of the facemask the qb could NOT throw the ball whereas if he could have thrown it alot of yards could have been gained due to the basic spot being different.
Post by: HLinNC on February 22, 2021, 10:28:34 AM
Quote
I have had referees ask me if during a defensive holding penalty if the holding occurred before or during the pass. It really wouldn't matter would it? The penalty under both would be enforced at the previous spot?
That isn't why they are asking you that question. If the defensive hold occcurs during the pass, it can be DPI instead of def. holding.
Post by: Kalle on February 22, 2021, 10:41:15 AM
BACKWARD PASS.....testing 1.2.3.......
......edited to add that it still works. I typed 'l...a..t..e..r...a...l' and 'backward pass' replaced it automatically. An ingenious form of thought control!! hEaDbAnG
I don't much mind words like "hike" or "offsides", but I do stand by the infamous L-word autocorrect :sTiR: (of course if some other admin removes it, I'll live ;) )
Post by: AlUpstateNY on February 22, 2021, 11:47:10 AM
If the ball is in a loose ball status (say the QB throws the ball after he gets facemasked), all action prior to that loose ball get absorbed into that loose ball status/play. So, your basic spot would be the previous spot, because that run (QB scramble) gets converted from run to loose ball status.
....if the qb continues to scramble even for some time after the face mask and then throws the ball it is all still one big 'loose ball' play during the 'down'?
Both NFHS 10-3-1-c and 2-33-1-d contain the same "note", "The run(s) which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumbles (are)." (SNAP- 2-40-1-3).
Post by: ElvisLives on February 22, 2021, 01:15:59 PM
Post by: AlUpstateNY on February 22, 2021, 01:24:03 PM
Let me just make a note here that anybody that wants to get into NCAA (collegiate) football, the NCAA rules regarding the situations being discussed here are very different. So, again, when that time comes, be ready to forget what you know (more or less) and study. A lot. And, in the meantime, don't offer criticism of NCAA guys for doing something differently than what may be correct for NFHS. Just like I don't criticize NFL guys for anything they do. Way different rules.
Always a good idea to KNOW where you are, and good advice suggests, "When in Rome, do like a Roman".
Post by: Derek Teigen on February 22, 2021, 05:06:09 PM
Both NFHS 10-3-1-c and 2-33-1-d contain the same "note", "The run(s) which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumbles (are)." (SNAP- 2-40-1-3).
ok. so it doesn't really matter if the snap is in shotgun or directly over center....a snap includes either. Then everything that happens from the snap to and proceeds a 'legal forward pass, a backward pass, an illegal kick, or a fumble in or behind the neutral zone' gets converted to one big loose ball play and the basic spot for all fouls (except offensive holding which is a spot foul behind the los) is the previous spot. Taking it a step further it is not necessary to bean bag a fumble spot 'behind' the line of scrimmage because if any change of possession and penalty on A they would just decline the penalty! If change of possession and penalty on B then they got the ball with 'hands dirty' and the penalty is enforced from the basic spot with is the previous spot. I think I am getting it. thank you! edited to include 'backward pass'. edited again to include offensive holding....
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 22, 2021, 07:18:33 PM
Once a player gains control, a running play begins and continues until the player is downed, or the ball becomes loose again behind the line of scrimmage. If a foul occurs while the player is in possession, the basic spot for penalty enforcement is the end of the run.
If the player in possession crosses the line of scrimmage, there can not be another loose ball play, unless the player retreats back behind the line of scrimmage. The basic spot for any foul while the ball is in possession or is loose BEYOND the line of scrimmage is the end of the related run.
If the ball becomes loose behind the line of scrimmage after the runner has gained possession, it is a loose ball play, and continues to be a loose ball play until it becomes dead or is possessed.
If it becomes dead after being loose behind the line, all action from the snap to the dead ball is included in the loose ball play, and the basic spot is the previous spot.
If the ball is possessed beyond the line after becoming loose behind the line, everything that happened before the possession is part of the loose ball play. Everything that happens after possession is part of a running play.
I’m sure I left something out.
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Post by: bossman72 on February 23, 2021, 12:37:18 AM
ok. so it doesn't really matter if the snap is in shotgun or directly over center....a snap includes either. Then everything that happens from the snap to and proceeds a 'legal forward pass, a backward pass, an illegal kick, or a fumble in or behind the neutral zone' gets converted to one big loose ball play and the basic spot for all fouls (except offensive holding which is a spot foul behind the los) is the previous spot. Taking it a step further it is not necessary to bean bag a fumble spot 'behind' the line of scrimmage because if any change of possession and penalty on A they would just decline the penalty! If change of possession and penalty on B then they got the ball with 'hands dirty' and the penalty is enforced from the basic spot with is the previous spot. I think I am getting it. thank you! edited to include 'backward pass'. edited again to include offensive holding....
This may help. I drew up this document to help beginners with penalty enforcement.
Look at the diagram on page 3. It's best to think of these as a timeline and when did the foul happen in that timeline.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OZnNQj7o-fX6lM5I0s3_n2HTD7hBHgegIZI1ZarEtDQ/edit?usp=sharing
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 23, 2021, 07:38:03 AM
This may help. I drew up this document to help beginners with penalty enforcement.This is good stuff. If you don’t mind, I’m going to “borrow” a copy of this to pass out to my guys.
Look at the diagram on page 3. It's best to think of these as a timeline and when did the foul happen in that timeline.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OZnNQj7o-fX6lM5I0s3_n2HTD7hBHgegIZI1ZarEtDQ/edit?usp=sharing
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Post by: bossman72 on February 23, 2021, 08:56:52 AM
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on February 23, 2021, 12:19:20 PM
Post by: Derek Teigen on February 23, 2021, 10:38:40 PM
I want to be that guy who can help the crew if needed on enforcement spots.
Post by: bossman72 on February 24, 2021, 12:11:51 AM
Clean Hands
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1k40TMU430x-McHhcneR2WOSxmLOJUu0UtZIE2Gxpfw4/edit?usp=sharing
Bridge to Kickoff chart
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xcoPfzCkGIx2s-vFTpwPsCcZ2GEQCWHuNnAQMZTIFcA/edit?usp=sharing
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on February 24, 2021, 07:45:32 AM
Thanks guys. I'll post a couple other things I have dealing with penalty enforcement that may help:
Thanks Bossman, more good stuff. We have our first "2020" meeting tonight (online meeting) for our Fall II season that is planning on kicking off next month here in MA. Hopefully we manage to keep our relatively recent NFHS training in our memory banks after many years of NCAA rules. :)
Post by: dammitbobby on February 26, 2021, 09:13:07 AM
Thanks guys. I'll post a couple other things I have dealing with penalty enforcement that may help:
Clean Hands
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1k40TMU430x-McHhcneR2WOSxmLOJUu0UtZIE2Gxpfw4/edit?usp=sharing
Bridge to Kickoff chart
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xcoPfzCkGIx2s-vFTpwPsCcZ2GEQCWHuNnAQMZTIFcA/edit?usp=sharing
These are great - are they also correct for NCAA? I'd love to use these as a resource but don't want to have to fact check every single item LOL.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on February 26, 2021, 09:43:51 AM
These are great - are they also correct for NCAA? I'd love to use these as a resource but don't want to have to fact check every single item LOL.
You might try the NFHS.org website, under the different sports (Football) there is an 8 page list (and explanations) of "2020 Major Football Rule Differences between NFHS & NCAA" you might find helpful.
Post by: Snapper on February 26, 2021, 10:01:59 AM
These are great - are they also correct for NCAA? I'd love to use these as a resource but don't want to have to fact check every single item LOL.
They are great. A lot of work has went into those.
But NO, do not use Federation materials to try to learn NCAA penalty enforcement. There are some concepts, like "Clean Hands", that apply to both. But generally you will confuse yourself if you try to do that.
ETA: There are certainly people out there that know both and they know the differences very well. But if you are in your first few years and you really only need to know one set of rules, then my suggestion is to stick with that set of rules and the material that's oriented towards them.
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 26, 2021, 10:27:09 AM
They are great. A lot of work has went into those.This is great advice. Early in my baseball career I tried to do both. Ended up being a jack of all trades but master of none. My advice is the same as snapper. Master one set before you try to expand into another. Whichever sport you pick.
But NO, do not use Federation materials to try to learn NCAA penalty enforcement. There are some concepts, like "Clean Hands", that apply to both. But generally you will confuse yourself if you try to do that.
ETA: There are certainly people out there that know both and they know the differences very well. But if you are in your first few years and you really only need to know one set of rules, then my suggestion is to stick with that set of rules and the material that's oriented towards them.
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Post by: Kalle on February 26, 2021, 12:03:13 PM
These are great - are they also correct for NCAA? I'd love to use these as a resource but don't want to have to fact check every single item LOL.
Like others have already said, in general, no, but in this particular case, with a caveat on slide #13 (in NCAA it is a simple 3-1 enforcement with the end of the kick spot being the basic spot), the clean hands document seems to be identical, and the carry-over has a separate tab for NCAA.
Post by: bossman72 on February 26, 2021, 05:05:31 PM
Like others have already said, in general, no, but in this particular case, with a caveat on slide #13 (in NCAA it is a simple 3-1 enforcement with the end of the kick spot being the basic spot), the clean hands document seems to be identical, and the carry-over has a separate tab for NCAA.
Slide 13 is the same as NCAA. Your answer is more thorough. I was going for simplicity.
Post by: bossman72 on February 26, 2021, 05:09:52 PM
They are great. A lot of work has went into those.
But NO, do not use Federation materials to try to learn NCAA penalty enforcement. There are some concepts, like "Clean Hands", that apply to both. But generally you will confuse yourself if you try to do that.
ETA: There are certainly people out there that know both and they know the differences very well. But if you are in your first few years and you really only need to know one set of rules, then my suggestion is to stick with that set of rules and the material that's oriented towards them.
I'm one of those weirdos that know the differences very well. What always helped me was to learn the NCAA rule inside and out and the NFHS rule is usually "simpler". For instance, you have many different enforcement spots specified in NCAA. NFHS, EVERYTHING is All-but-one (3 and 1). So if you know how to do that, you can enforce anything in NFHS. Intentional grounding has exceptions in NCAA. NFHS is simpler in that you only need to worry about finding a receiver in the area. Rarely do you have to learn a whole new concept for NFHS rules... they're usually just simpler versions of NCAA rules without the exceptions.
Post by: Kalle on February 26, 2021, 11:44:25 PM
Slide 13 is the same as NCAA. Your answer is more thorough. I was going for simplicity.
Yeah, 99.999% of the time the enforcement is from the end of the kick, as it is really unlikely for team B to be able to foul behind that spot (a really short kick with a hold on the gunner further downfield comes to mind).
Post by: twref on March 01, 2021, 12:32:55 PM
Post by: jgf6 on March 08, 2021, 04:16:52 PM
Post by: Derek Teigen on March 08, 2021, 06:10:54 PM
Post by: AlUpstateNY on March 09, 2021, 08:07:56 AM
my thinking on this is that once K regains possession of the ball that it is no longer a loose ball 'play' and it has become a running play with penalty enforced from the end of the run, which is the basic spot. Final answer.
Your conclusion seems confirmed by NFHS 2-41-9b (Spots).
Post by: Ralph Damren on April 07, 2021, 08:58:13 AM
(1) While intentional grounding (in the IFP family) is usually done to prevent loss of yardage via a sack, it would only make sense to make it a spot foul.
(2) A forward pitch or handoff after a 30 yard gain would only be reasonable to treat as a spot foul.
A play that may need to be explained to the confused coaches would be :
(1) 4 & 2 @ 50, QB scrambles and throws a forward pass from;
(a) B's 49; (b) B's 42....
[/YOU MAKE THE CALL....b]
Post by: Derek Teigen on April 07, 2021, 07:54:05 PM
Remember ,too ,that an illegal forward pass is considered a running play. The rationale is two-fold :
(1) While intentional grounding (in the IFP family) is usually done to prevent loss of yardage via a sack, it would only make sense to make it a spot foul.
(2) A forward pitch or handoff after a 30 yard gain would only be reasonable to treat as a spot foul.
A play that may need to be explained to the confused coaches would be :
(1) 4 & 2 @ 50, QB scrambles and throws a forward pass from;
(a) B's 49; (b) B's 42....
[/YOU MAKE THE CALL....b]
1A) spot foul 5 yard penalty brings the ball back to the 46 and loss of down mean B takes over on downs on A's 46 yard line.
1B) spot foul 5 yard penalty brings the ball back to the 47 yard. This is in advance of the line to gain but there is also a loss of down so B takes over on downs at B's 47 yard line.
please do not ask me to cite the rule book as I cannot provide the rule number.
Post by: SDR on April 07, 2021, 10:36:19 PM
Post by: Ralph Damren on April 08, 2021, 04:18:43 AM
Post by: zebraken on April 09, 2021, 12:29:12 PM
Post by: Ralph Damren on April 09, 2021, 04:47:11 PM
In 1B wouldnt A be awarded a first down and keep the ball? Rule 5-2-2c says the loss of down aspect has no significance if the line to gain has been reached after enforcement of the penalty or am I missing something?Yes, that's what I was trying to say. There was not a down to repeat as a new series have been gained. Sorry for the confusion.
Post by: SCHSref on May 19, 2021, 09:12:58 AM
Post by: Ralph Damren on May 19, 2021, 11:34:54 AM
Now, if your QB is smart and was tackled by the facemask behind the line AND fumbled before he was tackled, then it would be enforced from the previous spot.He wouldn't only have to be smart 8] , he would also have to be clairvoient :o to fumble BEFORE the facemask foul, Knowing that : (1) his facemask would be grabbed, (2) the z^ would ^flag it :) !
We ,too, need to be/stay smart on this. Many years ago this occurred in a regional championship where my goof could have cost a victory
pi1eOn
SCENE : 3/8 @50, A's up by 2 with under 2 minutes left.....
(1) QB scrambles back to A's 38 where he's grabbed by FM and fumbles;
(2) flags ^flag ^flagand bean bags were a' flying;
(3) B picks up fumble and races to paydirt ^good ;
(4) I go to stack of beanbags and send sNiCkErS on his 15 yd. journey;
(5) now 3/5 @ B's 47 ::), A runs ball to B's 30 ,1/10;
(6) clock runs out, we run to our cars z^ z^ z^ z^ z^.
On the way home :o I began to realize my goof :o . Thank the :bOW football gods :bOW for ensuing 1st down, but my groof could have cost them a chance to play (and win) the state championship. The following year ,in our pre-season coaches meeting, I pulled both coaches aside and explained my screw-up. Their responses were....
WINNING COACH : "I would have argued, but I wouldn't have any idea what I was arguing about ??? ."
LOSING COACH : " I was hoping you would have tacked our penalty onto OUR try for point 8] !"
MORALE OF STORY : We are trusted to get the rules right...let's keep that trust. ^TD
Post by: ncwingman on May 19, 2021, 12:33:47 PM
He wouldn't only have to be smart 8] , he would also have to be clairvoient :o to fumble BEFORE the facemask foul, Knowing that : (1) his facemask would be grabbed, (2) the z^ would ^flag it :) !
Would he?
I guess if he was *tackled* by the facemask, there's no action after that as the ball would be dead -- but let's say he stumbles, but stays on his feet and then fumbles clearly after the facemask was released, and following SCHSref's scenario that this all occurs behind the LOS.
The fumble makes it, and all action preceding it, a loose-ball play, so the foul on B would be enforced from the previous spot. There's no requirement here to fumble before the foul in order to have loose-ball enforcement.
Post by: SCHSref on May 19, 2021, 03:39:44 PM
He wouldn't only have to be smart 8] , he would also have to be clairvoient :o to fumble BEFORE the facemask foul, Knowing that : (1) his facemask would be grabbed, (2) the z^ would ^flag it :) !
We ,too, need to be/stay smart on this. Many years ago this occurred in a regional championship where my goof could have cost a victory
pi1eOn
SCENE : 3/8 @50, A's up by 2 with under 2 minutes left.....
(1) QB scrambles back to A's 38 where he's grabbed by FM and fumbles;
(2) flags ^flag ^flagand bean bags were a' flying;
(3) B picks up fumble and races to paydirt ^good ;
(4) I go to stack of beanbags and send sNiCkErS on his 15 yd. journey;
(5) now 3/5 @ B's 47 ::), A runs ball to B's 30 ,1/10;
(6) clock runs out, we run to our cars z^ z^ z^ z^ z^.
On the way home :o I began to realize my goof :o . Thank the :bOW football gods :bOW for ensuing 1st down, but my groof could have cost them a chance to play (and win) the state championship. The following year ,in our pre-season coaches meeting, I pulled both coaches aside and explained my screw-up. Their responses were....
WINNING COACH : "I would have argued, but I wouldn't have any idea what I was arguing about ??? ."
LOSING COACH : " I was hoping you would have tacked our penalty onto OUR try for point 8] !"
MORALE OF STORY : We are trusted to get the rules right...let's keep that trust. ^TD
But I didn't say before the foul. It's something to think about because since this is HS football, anything can and WILL happen. Bean bags behind the LOS are for the purpose of...notification? It wouldn't be for enforcement unless there was a change of possession.
Post by: Ralph Damren on May 20, 2021, 08:46:39 AM
But I didn't say before the foul. It's something to think about because since this is HS football, anything can and WILL happen. Bean bags behind the LOS are for the purpose of...notification? It wouldn't be for enforcement unless there was a change of possession.Agreed, SCHSref, beanbags were not needed to mark the spot of the fumble in this play. It just seemed natural to do following a fumble -and may have caused me to screw up and send the ump on his journey from there - my beanbag was there,too, so I can only blame myself :-[. IMHO, the only times beanbags that are needed behind the LOS are:
(1) Runner goes OOB behind the LOS;
(2) QB sacked and driven back a few yards-I'll beanbag forward progress , retrieve the ball and flip to ump at spot;
(3) scrambling QB near LOS when he throws forward pass- I'll beanbag spot of feet, then look to downs marker to see if over LOS.
You guys may have other situations. Please share....
Post by: CalhounLJ on May 20, 2021, 09:21:11 AM
Agreed, SCHSref, beanbags were not needed to mark the spot of the fumble in this play. It just seemed natural to do following a fumble -and may have caused me to screw up and send the ump on his journey from there - my beanbag was there,too, so I can only blame myself :-[. IMHO, the only times beanbags that are needed behind the LOS are:I’m guilty also. It’s just a reaction toss for me. I see the ball loose and throw my bag.
(1) Runner goes OOB behind the LOS;
(2) QB sacked and driven back a few yards-I'll beanbag forward progress , retrieve the ball and flip to ump at spot;
(3) scrambling QB near LOS when he throws forward pass- I'll beanbag spot of feet, then look to downs marker to see if over LOS.
You guys may have other situations. Please share....
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Post by: Ralph Damren on May 20, 2021, 09:36:21 AM
I’m guilty also. It’s just a reaction toss for me. I see the ball loose and throw my bag.Thanks, Calhoun, I feel better now, knowing I'm in good company :-[ !
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I read somewhere :
[/"THOU WHO HAVE NEVER SINNED SHOULD THROW THE FIRST STONE"
...I don't believe it was in a NFHS Officials Manual :)b]
Post by: AlUpstateNY on May 21, 2021, 07:47:52 AM
I’m guilty also. It’s just a reaction toss for me. I see the ball loose and throw my bag.
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"No harm, no foul" applies to many things. It's a LOT easier to pick up a beanbag, that technically may not have needed to be thrown, than find a spot, one you forgot to mark.
Post by: SCHSref on May 21, 2021, 12:51:10 PM
Agreed, SCHSref, beanbags were not needed to mark the spot of the fumble in this play. It just seemed natural to do following a fumble -and may have caused me to screw up and send the ump on his journey from there - my beanbag was there,too, so I can only blame myself :-[. IMHO, the only times beanbags that are needed behind the LOS are:
(1) Runner goes OOB behind the LOS;
(2) QB sacked and driven back a few yards-I'll beanbag forward progress , retrieve the ball and flip to ump at spot;
(3) scrambling QB near LOS when he throws forward pass- I'll beanbag spot of feet, then look to downs marker to see if over LOS.
You guys may have other situations. Please share....
I agree that it is a good practice, even if it is for no enforcement reason. However, I believe that knowing the importance of why a bean bag is thrown is crucial, especially when rookies are trained.
Post by: CalhounLJ on May 21, 2021, 01:00:48 PM
I agree that it is a good practice, even if it is for no enforcement reason. However, I believe that knowing the importance of why a bean bag is thrown is crucial, especially when rookies are trained.I agree. Most fans and many officials believe the bean bag is a fumble indicator.
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Post by: Tom.OH on May 21, 2021, 06:56:25 PM
"No harm, no foul" applies to many things. It's a LOT easier to pick up a beanbag, that technically may not have needed to be thrown, than find a spot, one you forgot to mark.
Lots off times you do not need to pickup the beanbag as one of the players will pick it up, hand it to you and say you dropped this...
Post by: CalhounLJ on May 23, 2021, 01:03:26 PM
Lots off times you do not need to pickup the beanbag as one of the players will pick it up, hand it to you and say you dropped this...Very true. We have some super polite players who will pick up anything you drop, including a flag.
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Post by: AlUpstateNY on May 23, 2021, 05:37:38 PM
Post by: fudilligas on May 24, 2021, 07:36:25 AM
"No harm, no foul" applies to many things. It's a LOT easier to pick up a beanbag, that technically may not have needed to be thrown, than find a spot, one you forgot to mark.
It is always better to have and not need than need and not have yEs:
Post by: Ralph Damren on May 24, 2021, 08:54:43 AM
(1) live football goes OOB;
(2) runner with ball goes OOB;
(3) fumble downfield;
(4) where scrimmage kick ended;
(5) where scrimmage kick was touched by K;
(6) where free kick was touched by K in NZ.
Spots that do NOT need to be marked by beanbag :
(1) where free kick ended or pass intercepted - what you see on TV is for stats, fetching beanbag several yards downfield add a long ,unneeded journey;
(2) fumble in the backfield;
(3) where spot foul occurred - this should be marked by your flag, OK if moved to spot after initial toss.
I agree with you guys that it is tempting and acceptable to toss beanbag during any fumble -white hat's job to properly enforce. I listed some other uses earlier that I feel aid in game management that could be used.
When I returned to Maine in 1971, I had officiated in Connecticut for two years prior which was then a NCAA state. With me ,I brought a black hat with white piping (NFHS - sloid black), red and white flag (NFHS-solid red) and beanbag (NFHS used hats to mark spots). I quickly adopted the NFHS hat and flag, but kept using my beanbag. One of the officials was extremely interested in the beanbag and wanted to buy one. I later found out the interest : He wore a wig under his hat and was always worried that his wig, along with his hat would "mark the spot" ;D .