RefStripes.com
Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: BetweenTheLines on May 28, 2021, 06:50:37 AM
-
If A’s passer late in the game or half muffs a snap then secures it and then spikes it, should we use rule 3-4-6 and start the clock on the ready?
-
Yes! If you believe the QB is attempting to conserve time (which seems to be implied here), start the clock on the RFP. The fact that he muffed the snap, recovered the ball prior to the IFP really has no significance. Enforce from the spot of the IFP and count the down...
fp
-
The fact that he muffed it and then spiked it is what made it an IFP. Otherwise, it’s legal. Flag it, mark off 5 from the spot, Down counts and start on RFP.
EXCEPTION: It is legal for a player positioned directly behind the snapper to conserve time by intentionally throwing the ball forward to the ground immediately after receiving the snap that has neither been muffed nor touched the ground.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Remember that "...to conserve time" is an important part of making the spike legal. If it occurs in mid-first period, as the QB spies a heard of Bubbas closing in, he ain't conserving time ^flag. He's conserving his health :o !
-
Remember that "...to conserve time" is an important part of making the spike legal. If it occurs in mid-first period, as the QB spies a heard of Bubbas closing in, he ain't conserving time ^flag.
But what if A's coach let you know, pregame, of their new "Maximize the Game Clock" strategy intending to run as many offensive plays as they can throughout the game by ensuring the game clock stops after every down? If they fail to get out of bounds, they'll spike the ball to kill the clock rather than burn 20 seconds in a hurry up offense.
:sTiR:
I'm not saying this is a *good* strategy...
-
But what if A's coach let you know, pregame, of their new "Maximize the Game Clock" strategy intending to run as many offensive plays as they can throughout the game by ensuring the game clock stops after every down? If they fail to get out of bounds, they'll spike the ball to kill the clock rather than burn 20 seconds in a hurry up offense.
:sTiR:
I'm not saying this is a *good* strategy...
IMHO, the word "immediately" would then come to mind ::). I would then ask if there was a healthcare professional in the area as the coach (mental) would certainly need one :o !
-
Or what about this: A’s team is having a horrible time getting a play called. The play clock is ticking away and he tells his QB, “just spike it.” He’s technically conserved time.
Then there’s the ole spike it to catch Bubba with too many on the field trying to substitute ploy. Technically a foul. Do we offset and replay? Or, do we listen to A’s coach as he tries to convince us that B was running too much time off the clock with their slow subbing?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
But what if A's coach let you know, pregame, of their new "Maximize the Game Clock" strategy intending to run as many offensive plays as they can throughout the game by ensuring the game clock stops after every down? If they fail to get out of bounds, they'll spike the ball to kill the clock rather than burn 20 seconds in a hurry up offense.
:sTiR:
I'm not saying this is a *good* strategy...
Good point. At what point do we determine A’s intent to conserve time? Does it have to be late in the game/half? Does the attempt to conserve time even have to make sense to the official?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Good point. At what point do we determine A’s intent to conserve time? Does it have to be late in the game/half? YES Does the attempt to conserve time even have to make sense to the official? YESSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
So then, let's say we have a 50+ tailwind and A has the ball nearing the end of the 3rd quarter, behind 2 points. They are extremely confident that if they make the 40 yard field goal they are face with, their defense can hold the lead. it's 3rd down, and they have no timeouts left. The game clock is ticking quickly to zero, and if it runs out they will have to swap ends and kick into a 50+ headwind. Are you saying they can't legally spike the ball in that situation?
-
So then, let's say we have a 50+ tailwind and A has the ball nearing the end of the 3rd quarter, behind 2 points. They are extremely confident that if they make the 40 yard field goal they are face with, their defense can hold the lead. it's 3rd down, and they have no timeouts left. The game clock is ticking quickly to zero, and if it runs out they will have to swap ends and kick into a 50+ headwind. Are you saying they can't legally spike the ball in that situation?
I'll give ya' that one ,Calhoun :). When we put this exception in back in 1996 it was stressed that it needed two components, it had to be immediate and it had to be to conserve time. When we expanded it to allow from the shotgun those didn't change.
POTENTIAL >:DCASE PLAY >:D : 1st and goal at B 's 7, 0:07 left in 1st period. Prom queen, as a senior class prank, decides to have a >:D" wardrobe malfunction" and is standing directly behind B's goal post. A's QB yells : "REF, WE CAN'T MISS THIS >:D !!" and spikes the ball to stop the clock.
RULING : Where A1 had a reason to conserve time and stop the clock, it is not considered a wholesome one. Intentional grounding will not be applied, BUT unsportsmanlike conduct will be charged to A1 under 9-8-1 : "Examples are, BUT NOT LIMITED TO....". The referee will instruct both teams to return to their sidelines and not peek until the malfunction is corrected or the prom queen is removed. A's ball ,2nd and goal at B's 22.
tR:oLl
-
Of course, we can all "What if" ourselves to death, but it most often boils down to YOUR understanding of the rule (exception) and judgment and common sense, the game situation and whether, or not, you're willing to accept the consequences of your decision.
-
I'll give ya' that one ,Calhoun :). When we put this exception in back in 1996 it was stressed that it needed two components, it had to be immediate and it had to be to conserve time. When we expanded it to allow from the shotgun those didn't change.
POTENTIAL >:DCASE PLAY >:D : 1st and goal at B 's 7, 0:07 left in 1st period. Prom queen, as a senior class prank, decides to have a >:D" wardrobe malfunction" and is standing directly behind B's goal post. A's QB yells : "REF, WE CAN'T MISS THIS >:D !!" and spikes the ball to stop the clock.
RULING : Where A1 had a reason to conserve time and stop the clock, it is not considered a wholesome one. Intentional grounding will not be applied, BUT unsportsmanlike conduct will be charged to A1 under 9-8-1 : "Examples are, BUT NOT LIMITED TO....". The referee will instruct both teams to return to their sidelines and not peek until the malfunction is corrected or the prom queen is removed. A's ball ,2nd and goal at B's 22.
tR:oLl
lol. now that's a good illustration!!. I can see the rationale for only allowing the spike to conserve time. I guess in the case of catching the defense with too many, the QB could just take a knee. I'm probably in the minority here, but my approach is if A wants to waste a down with a spike I'm ok with it, as long as he's not trying to prevent a sack...
-
Of course, we can all "What if" ourselves to death, but it most often boils down to YOUR understanding of the rule (exception) and judgment and common sense, the game situation and whether, or not, you're willing to accept the consequences of your decision.
Yes, thank you very much for that astute observation..
-
Of course, we can all "What if" ourselves to death, but it most often boils down to YOUR understanding of the rule (exception) and judgment and common sense, the game situation and whether, or not, you're willing to accept the consequences of your decision.
One comment in re: to the what if exercise. That type of in depth thinking actually produces a better understanding of the application of a rule and it’s consequences. Much better than an “it’s all up to you, depends on what you think see hear and judge.” There are actually objective principles that can and should be applied to the discussion of football rules.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
my approach is if A wants to waste a down with a spike I'm ok with it, as long as he's not trying to prevent a sack...
This. (As long as they execute it correctly)
-
Let's do a 180 on the play CalhounLJ posted with the 50+ mph wind. A has been using the numbering exception on their try's all night, only using the tackles numbered 78 & 79 on their line everyone else numbered 1 thru 49. Now to catch the great tailwind they try a field goal on third down. Is the formation legal or not on third down?
-
Let's do a 180 on the play CalhounLJ posted with the 50+ mph wind. A has been using the numbering exception on their try's all night, only using the tackles numbered 78 & 79 on their line everyone else numbered 1 thru 49. Now to catch the great tailwind they try a field goal on third down. Is the formation legal or not on third down?
No. Only the snapper can be in under the numbering exception on any down other than 4. In this situation A would need 4 linemen numbered 50-79.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
No. Only the snapper can be in under the numbering exception on any down other than 4. In this situation A would need 4 linemen numbered 50-79.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Our scrimmage kick formation is complex and easy to miss. The first year that we had the new definition, I goofed one :
(1) Seconds to go in first half, B recovers fumble @A's15;
(2) In comes FG team and kicks 32 yarder;
(3) ^good
(4) halftime arrives and I began to ??? did they have proper numbers ??? ;
(5) before the 2nd half started, I asked kicker's coach :"Who was on the line for your FG ??? "
(6) He answered : " 38,55,25,41,63, 22 & 40 (or something theresuch) ."
(7) I responded : " :-[ It wasn't 4th down, that would have been illegal. "
(8) He quizzed : " Can we keep the points :o :o ??? ? "
(9) I answered : "Yes :-[ , once the period ended, it was too late :-[ ."
[/JUST WHEN YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING, YOU FIND OUT YOU DON'T
pi1eOnb]
-
Let us continue to extrapolate; on third down into the teeth of this blistering wind A wants to take advantage of the wind and punt it away with their long snapper being the only one using the numbering exception. Punt formation, the punter is 10 yards behind the snapper. Legal or not???
-
Score yet another one for honesty, and accuracy, with a couple of bonus points for knowing ALL the details relating to the situation. Bad news has a lot less sting, when it's able to end with instructional "good" news.
-
Let us continue to extrapolate; on third down into the teeth of this blistering wind A wants to take advantage of the wind and punt it away with their long snapper being the only one using the numbering exception. Punt formation, the punter is 10 yards behind the snapper. Legal or not???
No. 2-14-2b; 7-2-5b1
If a team punts on 3rd down, or any down other than 4, Team K must have five players on the LoS numbered 50- 79.
-
No. 2-14-2b; 7-2-5b1
If a team punts on 3rd down, or any down other than 4, Team K must have five players on the LoS numbered 50- 79.
I think that if the long snapper is the only one in under the numbering exception, he’s implying that the other linemen are wearing numbers in the range of 50-79. If that’s so, it’s a legal formation, as long as there are 4 numbered 50-79. A scrimmage kick is a scrimmage kick no matter if it’s a field goal attempt or a punt.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
I think that if the long snapper is the only one in under the numbering exception, he’s implying that the other linemen are wearing numbers in the range of 50-79. If that’s so, it’s a legal formation, as long as there are 4 numbered 50-79. A scrimmage kick is a scrimmage kick no matter if it’s a field goal attempt or a punt.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Disregard this post. GA is correct. Exception is only for a field goal attempt, not a punt. #brainfart
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Disregard this post. GA is correct. Exception is only for a field goal attempt, not a punt. #brainfart
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
To the best of my knowledge, a punt and a field goal are both scrimmage kicks and there is no difference between the two as far as the numbering exception is concerned....on downs 1,2 and 3 you must have 4 players numbered 50-79 on the line and if the numbering exception is used that player must snap the ball and be an interior lineman....7-2-5b, exception 1....it does not state field goal attempt only...on 4th down there is not a numbering requirement
-
To the best of my knowledge, a punt and a field goal are both scrimmage kicks and there is no difference between the two as far as the numbering exception is concerned....on downs 1,2 and 3 you must have 4 players numbered 50-79 on the line and if the numbering exception is used that player must snap the ball and be an interior lineman....7-2-5b, exception 1....it does not state field goal attempt only...on 4th down there is not a numbering requirement
Rules 2-14-2a & 2b define scrimmage kick formations. The 2a formation is what we refer to as “FG formation” and the 2b formation is what we refer to as “punt formation”.
Rule 7-2-5b EXP1 allows the snapper to wear a non-50 through 79 number on downs 1-3, but ONLY for the 2-14-2a scrimmage kick formation (FG formation). It doesn’t extend the exception to punt formation.
-
Correct- just has to be in an SKF- EITHER of these:
2-14-2
a. A player is in position with a knee on the ground 7 yards or more
behind the line of scrimmage, in position to be the holder and
receive the long snap and with another player 3 yards or less behind
that player in position to attempt a place kick, or
b. A player is 10 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage and in
position to receive the long snap.
7-2-5b
EXCEPTIONS:
1. On first, second or third down, when A sets or shifts into a scrimmagekick formation as in 2-14-2a, the snapper may be a player numbered 1 to
49 or 80 to 99. If Team A has the snapper in the game under thisexception, Team A shall have four players wearing numbers 50-79 on its
line of scrimmage. The snapper in the game under this exception must be
between the ends and is an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that
down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b).
2. On fourth down or during a kick try, when A sets or shifts into a
scrimmage-kick formation, any A player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99
may take the position of any A player numbered 50 to 79. A player in the
game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of
scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass
receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b)
-
Correct- just has to be in an SKF- EITHER of these:
2-14-2
a. A player is in position with a knee on the ground 7 yards or more
behind the line of scrimmage, in position to be the holder and
receive the long snap and with another player 3 yards or less behind
that player in position to attempt a place kick, or
b. A player is 10 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage and in
position to receive the long snap.
7-2-5b
EXCEPTIONS:
1. On first, second or third down, when A sets or shifts into a scrimmagekick formation as in 2-14-2a, the snapper may be a player numbered 1 to
49 or 80 to 99. If Team A has the snapper in the game under thisexception, Team A shall have four players wearing numbers 50-79 on its
line of scrimmage. The snapper in the game under this exception must be
between the ends and is an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that
down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b).
2. On fourth down or during a kick try, when A sets or shifts into a
scrimmage-kick formation, any A player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99
may take the position of any A player numbered 50 to 79. A player in the
game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of
scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass
receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b)
Read the exception closely. The first phrase “as in 2-14-2A”. It specifically limits the exception to the first field goal formation. The “A” part is critical. If they hadn’t meant to limit it to this particular formation they would not have added the clause.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
:!#
Yep
-
thanks for the clarification ......learn something new everyday....that is why this is a great forum
-
An another consideration on a field goal attempt is the holder NEEDS to have a knee on the ground to have the numbering exception. I've had several coaches ask about the holder being in a "catcher's crouch". My response was that if he did ,the numbering exception could not be used.
-
It's important to remember that being in that correct holder position offers the holder protection or there ain't no roughing the holder.
-
It's important to remember that being in that correct holder position offers the holder protection or there ain't no roughing the holder.
Do you have caseplay to support this? Because while it is true that to use the numbering exception there must be a player with his knee on the ground before the snap, there is no requirement for him to have his knee on the ground at the time of the kick. There is also nothing in the rules to suggest the holder has to have a knee on the ground at all, other than to use the numbering exception.
Also, the definition of a holder does not state anything about a knee on the ground.
ART. 7 ... A Holder is a player who controls the ball on the ground or on a kicking tee.
So in theory, a holder can line up, receive the ball put it down and hold it while being kicked without ever putting a knee on the ground. The knee on the ground is not what makes him a holder. Is the fact that he controlled the ball on the ground.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Do you have caseplay to support this? Because while it is true that to use the numbering exception there must be a player with his knee on the ground before the snap, there is no requirement for him to have his knee on the ground at the time of the kick. There is also nothing in the rules to suggest the holder has to have a knee on the ground at all, other than to use the numbering exception.
Also, the definition of a holder does not state anything about a knee on the ground.
ART. 7 ... A Holder is a player who controls the ball on the ground or on a kicking tee.
So in theory, a holder can line up, receive the ball put it down and hold it while being kicked without ever putting a knee on the ground. The knee on the ground is not what makes him a holder. Is the fact that he controlled the ball on the ground.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Case play does not equal the rules. Is a holder a holder if he isn't legally considered a holder? Without a knee in the ground, they aren't in a legal SK formation. If he isn't in a legal SK formation, then he isn't afforded protection.
-
An interesting question. As suggested, 2-24-7 (Kicks) defines a "Place kick", and a "place-kick holder", but does not address a "knee on the ground". 2-32-7 (Player Designations), defines a "holder", but again DOESN"T address a "knee on the ground".
However, 4-1-2 (Dead Ball and EOD) addresses two IMPORTANT EXCEPTIONS and a NOTE relating to keeping the ball/play "alive" when a Holder does assume a position WITH a "knee on the ground".
2-14-2a (Formations) does require, (a Scrimmage Kick Formation)-A) "...a player is in position "with a knee on the ground" 7 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage in position to be the "holder" and receive a long snap & with another player 3 yds or less behind that player in position to attempt a place kick.
-
Case play does not equal the rules. Is a holder a holder if he isn't legally considered a holder? Without a knee in the ground, they aren't in a legal SK formation. If he isn't in a legal SK formation, then he isn't afforded protection.
SCHSref:
The way I interpret the rule, is the potential holder must have his knee on the ground at the snap.
The fact that his knee might be off the ground after the snap is irrelevant.
-
Case play does not equal the rules. Is a holder a holder if he isn't legally considered a holder? Without a knee in the ground, they aren't in a legal SK formation. If he isn't in a legal SK formation, then he isn't afforded protection.
I think that’s a stretch. Question- if a player holds the ball without a knee on the ground and the kicker kicks it, will you throw a flag for illegal formation? I don’t think so.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
SCHSref:
The way I interpret the rule, is the potential holder must have his knee on the ground at the snap.
The fact that his knee might be off the ground after the snap is irrelevant.
I don’t think this is even true. There is no requirement for any player to have a knee on the ground at the snap. The only requirement is that a player line up in position with a knee on the ground. Nothing precludes him from picking up his knee before the snap.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
I think that’s a stretch. Question- if a player holds the ball without a knee on the ground and the kicker kicks it, will you throw a flag for illegal formation? I don’t think so.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My point is aboit protection afforded. Can you rough thd passer if he throws an illegal forward pass? Can a kicker be roughed if he doesn't kick the ball? Is a holder afforded protection if he knee is never on the ground?
-
My point is aboit protection afforded. Can you rough thd passer if he throws an illegal forward pass? Can a kicker be roughed if he doesn't kick the ball? Is a holder afforded protection if he knee is never on the ground?
I get it, but according to the definitions, a kicker is a kicker when he kicks it, a passer is a passer when he passes it,and a holder is a holder when he controls the ball on the ground. According to the definition, a holder doesn’t need to have a knee on the ground to be a holder. If that’s true, then a holder can be roughed even though he he doesn’t have a knee on the ground.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Until such time that the rule makers either add language to specifically require a holder to have a knee on the ground, or confirm it's not necessary we will be limited to relying on our common sense, judgment and understanding of the purpose of what we thoroughly understand what a specific rule was intended to accomplish and/or prevent.
-
Until such time that the rule makers either add language to specifically require a holder to have a knee on the ground, or confirm it's not necessary we will be limited to relying on our common sense, judgment and understanding of the purpose of what we thoroughly understand what a specific rule was intended to accomplish and/or prevent.
I disagree. What’s not prohibited is allowed, and what is not required is… well, not required. If there is no requirement for a knee on the ground to be a holder, then a knee on the ground is not required.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
An another consideration on a field goal attempt is the holder NEEDS to have a knee on the ground to have the numbering exception. I've had several coaches ask about the holder being in a "catcher's crouch". My response was that if he did ,the numbering exception could not be used.
Once again, I agree with Ralph.
* To meet the 2-14-2a (Field Goal) scrimmage kick formation definition, the holder is REQUIRED to have his knee on the ground.
* To be granted the numbering exception which is described in 7-2-5b EXCEPTION 2, Team K must be in the formation described in 2-14-2a or the formation described in 2-14-2b
* If Team K chooses to snap the ball with the holder knee not touching, they simply must have 5 players on the LOS number 50-79 AND they would Not be utilizing the numbering exception
-
Do you have caseplay to support this? Because while it is true that to use the numbering exception there must be a player with his knee on the ground before the snap, there is no requirement for him to have his knee on the ground at the time of the kick. There is also nothing in the rules to suggest the holder has to have a knee on the ground at all, other than to use the numbering exception.
Also, the definition of a holder does not state anything about a knee on the ground.
ART. 7 ... A Holder is a player who controls the ball on the ground or on a kicking tee.
So in theory, a holder can line up, receive the ball put it down and hold it while being kicked without ever putting a knee on the ground. The knee on the ground is not what makes him a holder. Is the fact that he controlled the ball on the ground.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree with this. Totally.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Once again, I agree with Ralph.
* To meet the 2-14-2a (Field Goal) scrimmage kick formation definition, the holder is REQUIRED to have his knee on the ground.
* To be granted the numbering exception which is described in 7-2-5b EXCEPTION 2, Team K must be in the formation described in 2-14-2a or the formation described in 2-14-2b
* If Team K chooses to snap the ball with the holder knee not touching, they simply must have 5 players on the LOS number 50-79 AND they would Not be utilizing the numbering exception
I agree with THIS. Totally. Sorry don’t know what happened the first time.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
An another consideration on a field goal attempt is the holder NEEDS to have a knee on the ground to have the numbering exception. I've had several coaches ask about the holder being in a "catcher's crouch". My response was that if he did ,the numbering exception could not be used.
I agree.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Until such time that the rule makers either add language to specifically require a holder to have a knee on the ground, or confirm it's not necessary we will be limited to relying on our common sense, judgment and understanding of the purpose of what we thoroughly understand what a specific rule was intended to accomplish and/or prevent.
ALF - Please see RULE 2-14-2a and you will find the language which specifically requires a holder to have a knee on the ground.
-
ALF - Please see RULE 2-14-2a and you will find the language which specifically requires a holder to have a knee on the ground.
Thanks KWH, by any chance would that be the same NFHS: 2-14-2a (FORMATIONS) I quoted earlier at 4:28 PM today? 13 responses ago.
-
Technically speaking, 2-14-2a does not require a holder to have a knee on the ground. It requires a player to have a knee on the ground. A player doesn’t become a holder until he controls the ball in the ground or tee. And he doesn’t need a knee on the ground to do that.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Technically speaking, 2-14-2a does not require a holder to have a knee on the ground. It requires a player to have a knee on the ground. A player doesn’t become a holder until he controls the ball in the ground or tee. And he doesn’t need a knee on the ground to do that.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Are you serious? 2-14-2a, "A player IN POSITION WITH A KNEE ON THE GROUND 7 YARDS OR MORE BEHIND THE LOS, IN POSITION TO BE THE HOLDER & RECEIVE THE LONG SNAP & WITH ANOTHER PLAYER 3 YARDS OR LESS BEHIND THAT PLAYER IN POSITION TO ATTEMPT A PLACE KICK." seems a pretty unambiguous description of who needs to be where to satisfy describing the requirements of a "Scrimmage formation", to allow a player to benefit from the 2 Exceptions and Note provided in 4-2-2 (Dead ball & end of the Down).
-
Are you serious? 2-14-2a, "A player IN POSITION WITH A KNEE ON THE GROUND 7 YARDS OR MORE BEHIND THE LOS, IN POSITION TO BE THE HOLDER & RECEIVE THE LONG SNAP & WITH ANOTHER PLAYER 3 YARDS OR LESS BEHIND THAT PLAYER IN POSITION TO ATTEMPT A PLACE KICK." seems a pretty unambiguous description of who needs to be where to satisfy describing the requirements of a "Scrimmage formation", to allow a player to benefit from the 2 Exceptions and Note provided in 4-2-2 (Dead ball & end of the Down).
Oh I’m very serious. Read it slowly and objectively. The phrase “in position to be the holder” in no way implies that the player IS the holder. Only that he or she intends to BECOME the holder. What are the requirements for that player to become the holder? He or she becomes the holder if/when he or she controls the ball on the ground or tee. Does he or she have to have a knee on the ground to control the ball? NO.
Continue reading about the other player. The rule states there has to be another player 3 yds behind that player in position to attempt a place kick. Is that player the kicker? Not unless he or she kicks the ball. Just taking the position doesn’t define the player. Their actions define their designation.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Consider this play in context of the roughing the holder question. Let's say the formation is just like the book in 2-14-2a. There is a player 7yds deep with his knee on the ground, ready to receive the snap. The snap is high, over his head, to the other player, who subsequently runs with the ball. Meanwhile, the nose shoots the gap and clocks the player with the knee on the ground. Do we have roughing the holder? Of course not. Why? Because he never fulfilled the requirements of a holder.
Now, next play. Same formation, only this time the snap is directly to the guy who began the formation with his knee on the ground. Only this time, simultaneously with the snap, the player lifts his knee into a "catcher's crouch." He receives the ball, controls it on the ground, and the other player kicks it. Immediately after the kick, the DE shooting in from the left clocks the guy who was controlling the ball at the time of the kick. Do we have roughing the holder? Absolutely. Why? Because the player fulfilled the requirements of a holder.
-
One more and I'm done. Same situation as in #2 above, except the player in position to become a holder, after calling the team to the set position, lifts his knee into the catcher's crouch BEFORE THE SNAP. He receives the ball, controls it on the ground, it's kicked and he's clocked. Do we have roughing the holder? Absolutely. Why? Because he fulfilled the definition of a holder.
The only issue with the knee on the ground in the context of this discussion is not roughing, it's numbering. If that player takes an initial position in the formation with a knee on the ground, the numbering exception applies, even if he subsequently lifts it before the kick. According to the rule.
-
We always have a choice. We can/should look at every situation for a specific violation of a specific rule, as well as render a judgment as to whether, what we are actually observing, does or does not, actually rise to the level of violating any specific rules that monitor the general behavior and tenor of the rules, such as 2-16-b or c, 9-4-3b, c or g.
In the absence of exactly specific rule coverage and specification to address, detail and enumerate every potential violation, enforcement is often dependent on the specific action being observed and the judgment of the covering official and their understanding of the protective intent of multiple rules, while evaluating whether the action being observed threatens any of the protective restrictions of the rules, to the extent that a formal consequence is justified and appropriate.
Limiting the appropriate response, of observed actions, to the presence, or absence, of exact and specific inclusion and specification in the actual text of a/any rule is impossible and conflicts with the NFHS "Game Officials Manual" instruction, "Game officials must have a football sense which supersedes the technical application of the rules so that the game goes smoothly. Game officials are expected to exercise good judgment in applying the rules.", which will NEVER be able to specify and/or enumerate EVERY possible violation.
-
I guess that's a default response with you...
-
I guess that's a default response with you...
Perhaps, once worth considering and inherent to the job description.
-
IMHO, the "catcher's crouch" positioning of the holder is usually part of a trick play. :-\
IMHO, trick plays need to adhere to the letter of the law. P_S
IMHO, an accepted response could be : "Coach, your holder will not be meeting the requirement for the numbering exception and MAY NOT get protection for holder roughing. Remember, safety is the most important part of our game. "
-
IMHO, the "catcher's crouch" positioning of the holder is usually part of a trick play. :-\
IMHO, trick plays need to adhere to the letter of the law. P_S
IMHO, an accepted response could be : "Coach, your holder will not be meeting the requirement for the numbering exception and MAY NOT get protection for holder roughing. Remember, safety is the most important part of our game. "
I agree. We have a team who runs a trick play out of this formation. The end peels back and the player pitches it to him. Which is legal. To keep the other team from knowing when they will do it, the player always holds in the catcher's position. and we give him protection.
The biggest thing I watch for when I have this team is the player catching it in the squat and then putting the knee on the ground while putting the ball on the ground. Because then he's down at the spot...
-
Perhaps some helpful official might simply explain to this ingenious coach, that his holder, WITH A KNEE ON THE GROUND, can present the same illusion and deception, perhaps even more effectively, by simply adhering to EXCEPTION 2 of NFHS 4-2-2a by simply rising to (before) advancing, handing, kick or pass.
-
Perhaps some helpful official might simply explain to this ingenious coach, that his holder, WITH A KNEE ON THE GROUND, can present the same illusion and deception, perhaps even more effectively, by simply adhering to EXCEPTION 2 of NFHS 4-2-2a by simply rising to (before) advancing, handing, kick or pass.
Or, we can let him coach his team the way he wants, in accordance with the rules...
-
ABSOLUTELY, and that's a choice each of us have to make for ourselves, as to how we see our role.