Post by: SCHSref on June 08, 2021, 01:50:12 PM
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 08, 2021, 02:34:30 PM
Post by: BetweenTheLines on June 08, 2021, 09:15:04 PM
Post by: bossman72 on June 09, 2021, 12:00:13 AM
Unless the BJ sees the flag and knows for sure what it was for there would be no way to avoid an IW.
I think that's why NCAA makes this play an immediate dead ball. Eliminates all of the bad things that happen after.
Post by: bama_stripes on June 09, 2021, 05:38:13 AM
I think that's why NCAA makes this play an immediate dead ball. Eliminates all of the bad things that happen after.
I like this, and would be for incorporating this into NFHS rules.
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 09, 2021, 06:12:42 AM
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 09, 2021, 06:16:10 AM
I think that's why NCAA makes this play an immediate dead ball. Eliminates all of the bad things that happen after.Just to be clear, are you saying the covering official blows it dead just as soon as the kicker kicks it if it’s beyond the nz? Is that how it works?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: ncwingman on June 09, 2021, 06:54:14 AM
Just to be clear, are you saying the covering official blows it dead just as soon as the kicker kicks it if it’s beyond the nz? Is that how it works?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Yes. From NCAA Rule 2-16-c:
Quote
A scrimmage kick made when the kicker’s entire body is beyond the neutral zone is an illegal kick and a live-ball foul that causes the ball to
become dead (Rule 6-3-10-c).
I would be willing to support a rule that makes it "legal" to fair catch an illegal kick (i.e., the ball becomes dead after the catch and all subsequent protections) but the follow up is not treated as a fair catch -- the illegal kick penalty takes precedence or the result of the play is essentially a fair catch.
I do not like the "live ball foul that causes the ball to become dead" aspect.
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 09, 2021, 06:59:19 AM
Yes. From NCAA Rule 2-16-c:This makes sense. If that were the case then we could give R the option to free kick from the spot of the fair catch.
I would be willing to support a rule that makes it "legal" to fair catch an illegal kick (i.e., the ball becomes dead after the catch and all subsequent protections) but the follow up is not treated as a fair catch -- the illegal kick penalty takes precedence or the result of the play is essentially a fair catch.
I do not like the "live ball foul that causes the ball to become dead" aspect.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: Ralph Damren on June 09, 2021, 08:15:20 AM
My interp of the post is : this was a running play prior to the illegal kick. The loose ball would be treated as a fumble, with B gaining possession at the spot of the recovery. The BJ shouldn't be discredited with an IW as the B player had not made any attempt to advance - sorta' like taking a knee. This would be a spot foul as it occurred beyond the LOS. If we killed an IK the minute it occurred, B would lose the chance of recovering a fumble if then illegally kick by A.
Post by: HLinNC on June 09, 2021, 08:25:28 AM
Quote
I do not like the "live ball foul that causes the ball to become dead" aspect.
Would definitely have and effect on Fundamentals. I agree but the Fed has already sort of stuck their head in the rabbit hole when they added the pop-up kick rule a while back. Granted the whole timing and events are different than free kick vs. an illegal scrimmage kick.
As I've said for several years now- the NFHS hates exceptions, except when they don't.
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 09, 2021, 08:30:53 AM
I believe the NCAA code has a laundry list of situations that differ depending when/where the foul occurred. Ours merely states : 2-24-9... When the ball is loose following an legal kick, it retains the same status as prior to an illegal kick.
My interp of the post is : this was a running play prior to the illegal kick. The loose ball would be treated as a fumble, with B gaining possession at the spot of the recovery. The BJ shouldn't be discredited with an IW as the B player had not made any attempt to advance - sorta' like taking a knee. This would be a spot foul as it occurred beyond the LOS. If we killed an IK the minute it occurred, B would lose the chance of recovering a fumble if then illegally kick by A.
I see your point. If we take the fair catch out of the posted situation, and say R catches the illegal kick and returns it for a TD, we certainly would not want A to benefit from their foul. R would deserve to decline the foul and keep the score
Post by: bossman72 on June 09, 2021, 08:48:05 AM
Just to be clear, are you saying the covering official blows it dead just as soon as the kicker kicks it if it’s beyond the nz? Is that how it works?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Yep. 5 yards previous spot and loss of down.
I don't think NFHS would get on board because that would violate the football fundamental that no live ball foul causes the ball to become dead.
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 09, 2021, 08:49:38 AM
Yep. 5 yards previous spot and loss of down.
I don't think NFHS would get on board because that would violate the football fundamental that no live ball foul causes the ball to become dead.
I agree, except as has already been mentioned, we fell off that cliff with the pop-up kick..
Post by: ncwingman on June 09, 2021, 09:32:35 AM
I believe the NCAA code has a laundry list of situations that differ depending when/where the foul occurred. Ours merely states : 2-24-9... When the ball is loose following an legal kick, it retains the same status as prior to an illegal kick.
My interp of the post is : this was a running play prior to the illegal kick. The loose ball would be treated as a fumble, with B gaining possession at the spot of the recovery. The BJ shouldn't be discredited with an IW as the B player had not made any attempt to advance - sorta' like taking a knee. This would be a spot foul as it occurred beyond the LOS. If we killed an IK the minute it occurred, B would lose the chance of recovering a fumble if then illegally kick by A.
I pretty much just agree.
From a practical end of things, it's very difficult for the BJ *and* punt returner to know if the scrambling kicker was over the LOS. If the B player signals for a fair catch when they could reasonably believe that it was a legal kick, then you shouldn't penalize B by not affording them the protections due from a fair catch *nor* treating killing the play as an IW. The play ends after R gains possession after the fair catch signal, and then sort out later if they fair caught a kick or just recovered a "fumble" off a players foot.
If B doesn't signal for a fair catch, then we have an illegal kick and the result of the play follows as normal.
Post by: Ralph Damren on June 09, 2021, 03:53:50 PM
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 09, 2021, 04:56:42 PM
HUMP DAY QUIZ :An illegal kick is fair caught with the free kick option....How so ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? (5-man crew)Hang on…. Still scratching my head….
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Ump33 on June 09, 2021, 05:43:03 PM
HUMP DAY QUIZ :An illegal kick is fair caught with the free kick option....How so ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? (5-man crew)Il a legal scrimmage kick is blocked (or some how remains in or behind the NZ) and the kick has not touched the ground when K illegally kicks the ball, the status of the ball is still a kick and could meet the requirement of a fair catch.
Post by: Ralph Damren on June 09, 2021, 06:52:07 PM
Il a legal scrimmage kick is blocked (or some how remains in or behind the NZ) and the kick has not touched the ground when K illegally kicks the ball, the status of the ball is still a kick and could meet the requirement of a fair catch.Ya' nailed it, UMP!!! aWaRd
Post by: KWH on June 09, 2021, 11:51:45 PM
I agree, except as has already been mentioned, we fell off that cliff with the pop-up kick..
A Pop-up kick, is by definition a Free-Kick Infraction.
A Free Kick infraction is a Dead Ball Foul.
So...........
When a pop up kick occurs, the ball, by Rule, never became live.
Therefore, Fundament IX (1) is not applicable as this fundamental only deals with Fouls while the ball is live.
Thas my story and Im stiking to it... :sTiR:
Post by: Ralph Damren on June 10, 2021, 04:56:35 AM
Il a legal scrimmage kick is blocked (or some how remains in or behind the NZ) and the kick has not touched the ground when K illegally kicks the ball, the status of the ball is still a kick and could meet the requirement of a fair catch.I learned this the hard way, by blowing a call the year after we changed the rule pi1eOn ...
(1) 3rd & 10 @ A's 5;
(2) A/K tries to quick kick;
(3) punt is blocked;
(4) the kicker's soccer skills returned and he illegally kicked the loose ball in the end zone ^flag ;
(5)the ball sailed OOB @ A's 8;
(6) thinking old rule and treating IK as a fumble, I ruled safety and gave no choice :o ;
(7) shortly thereafter I realized it should have been treated as a kick;
(8) B/R could have taken the ball at A/K's 8 if declined :-[ .
There are game situations where 1st & goal @ 8 could be a better choice than 2 points and receiving a free kick. I didn't give them any.
Our rule change was prompted by a play occurring in the mid-west...
(1) A throws a forward pass;
(2) B-2, with great soccer skills, leaped and kicked the airborne pass to the ground for IK ^flag;
(3) officials ruled incomplete pass & IK - common sense 8] ;
(4) common sense ain't always right :!# - shoulda' been treated as a fumble (ole' rule) ::) ;
(5) new rule now makes common sense.
[/LESSON LEARNED :
HUMANS MAKE MISTAKES..HUMANS LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES...AND DON'T MAKE THE SAME ONES AGAIN.b]
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 10, 2021, 06:31:23 AM
A Pop-up kick, is by definition a Free-Kick Infraction.I get it. But still, the foul doesn’t happen until the ball is kicked , and the down begins when the ball is snapped or kicked. So we have in essence done what you just scolded Ralph not to do. But I’m not mad.
A Free Kick infraction is a Dead Ball Foul.
So...........
When a pop up kick occurs, the ball, by Rule, never became live.
Therefore, Fundament IX (1) is not applicable as this fundamental only deals with Fouls while the ball is live.
Thas my story and Im stiking to it... :sTiR:
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: BetweenTheLines on June 10, 2021, 06:37:34 AM
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 10, 2021, 06:41:53 AM
In response to Ralphs illegally kicked kick; R would have the ball 1st and goal from the 4 after a half the distance penalty.Nope. End of play was at the 8. Penalty happened in K end zone. Result of play is R’s ball at the 8. If R accepts the penalty the result is safety. If R DECLINES the penalty we not marking off anything. It’s R ball at 8. At the time of Ralph’s game. Remember, he’s old as Moses.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: HLinNC on June 10, 2021, 06:43:24 AM
Quote
Therefore, Fundament IX (1) is not applicable as this fundamental only deals with Fouls while the ball is live.
That's why I said that the Fed had begun "to stick their head in the rabbit hole". The pop up kick is a play, where in theory, we must let the ball become live, even though legally dead, and then quickly rule it dead if need be. I've yet to see one in person. I guess our region's kickers are not that accomplished
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 10, 2021, 06:44:38 AM
That's why I said that the Fed had begun "to stick their head in the rabbit hole". The pop up kick is a play, where in theory, we must let the ball become live, even though legally dead, and then quickly rule it dead if need be. I've yet to see one in person. I guess our region's kickers are not that accomplishedWe called one the first year the rule was put in. I guess it had the intended effect.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: BetweenTheLines on June 10, 2021, 07:14:20 AM
Post by: KWH on June 10, 2021, 10:10:56 AM
I get it. But still, the foul doesn’t happen until the ball is kicked , and the down begins when the ball is snapped or kicked. So we have in essence done what you just scolded Ralph not to do. But I’m not mad.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
2-7-1...A down is action which starts with a legal snap (beginning a scrimmage down) or when the ball is legally kicked (beginning a free-kick down) A down ends when the ball next becomes dead.
While the word legally is not in the current 2021 Rules Book, it certainly should be and my Chrystal ball is telling me it will likely appear in the 2022 Rules Book as that is clearly the intent of the Rules Committee.
My same old Chrystal ball is indicating Ralph would likely support adding this additional word to 2-7-1.
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 10, 2021, 10:39:48 AM
I don't have a problem with the safety aspect of this foul, and when it comes down to it, I'm sure you all did the very best you could to come to a sensible solution. Your job is difficult, and I appreciate you for it.
Post by: ilyazhito on June 10, 2021, 01:44:50 PM
Post by: KWH on June 11, 2021, 02:54:09 PM
Why not allow a fair catch on a pop-up kick like the NCAA does? This would agree with the fundamental that no foul can cause a live ball to become dead, because the kick would remain live, and it would remove the unfair advantage the defense has in being able to recover a ball that is apparently lobbed into the air by taking advantage of the fact that fair-catch rules no longer apply, and hitting the kick receiver.
Why?
Because the Rules Committees goal was to remove the Pop-Up Kick and have it exit the game in the same manner as the Return Kick!
I believe they achieved their goal.
Post by: Ralph Damren on June 14, 2021, 03:50:33 PM
Why?Another NFHS goal is not to make an exception with an exception. Allowing FC on a pop-up would be an exception. Making the "pop-up" illegal isn't an exception, just a new illegal act.
Because the Rules Committees goal was to remove the Pop-Up Kick and have it exit the game in the same manner as the Return Kick!
I believe they achieved their goal.
I hope no one takes exception to the fact that it is probably easier to learn a new rule than to learn an exception to an ole' one.
Post by: Ralph Damren on June 14, 2021, 06:50:23 PM
In response to Ralphs illegally kicked kick; R would have the ball 1st and goal from the 4 after a half the distance penalty.Excellent point with the tack-on rule. Tack-on didn't get passed until a couple of years after my screw-up. Good catch, BetweenTheLines aWaRd.
Post by: Ralph Damren on June 14, 2021, 06:53:23 PM
Nope. End of play was at the 8. Penalty happened in K end zone. Result of play is R’s ball at the 8. If R accepts the penalty the result is safety. If R DECLINES the penalty we not marking off anything. It’s R ball at 8. At the time of Ralph’s game. Remember, he’s old as Moses.Thanks, Calhoun, for the kind words ;D !
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: CalhounLJ on June 14, 2021, 06:54:06 PM
Thanks, Calhoun, for the kind words ;D !
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk