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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: skt101 on August 27, 2021, 09:58:33 AM
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B1 intercepts A1's pass and scores a touchdown. After change of possession, A3 commits a personal foul during the return. After the score B1 commits an unsportsmanlike foul for celebrating.
IF team A accepts the penalty for the unsportsmanlike, where is the spot for the foul be enforced?
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PAT or KO
<edited; first post was for 2 live-ball fouls>
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Since both of these fouls (one on each team) can be enforced -- which team has the first option of where to enforce the respective penalty?
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B
10-1-3
When a live-ball foul by one team is followed by a dead-ball foul by the opponent, the penalties are administered separately and in the order of occurrence.
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After B makes their decision, now A's turn to accept or decline the penalty. But where would the spot of enforcement occur for team A.(Team B's penalty of unsportmanslike celebration)
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After B makes their decision, now A's turn to accept or decline the penalty. But where would the spot of enforcement occur for team A.(Team B's penalty of unsportmanslike celebration)
NFHS: 9-4-5: The Basic spot is the SUCCEEDING SPOT:
a. Unsportsmanlike foul.
b. Dead-ball foul.
c. Non-player foul.
d. When the final result is a TOUCHBACK
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NFHS: 9-4-5: The Basic spot is the SUCCEEDING SPOT:
a. Unsportsmanlike foul.
b. Dead-ball foul.
c. Non-player foul.
d. When the final result is a TOUCHBACK
Hey Upstate; typo; "10"-4-5
Don't forget that this is a scoring play
8-2-4
If either team commits an unsportsmanlike conduct or a nonplayer foul during a down in which a touchdown is scored, the opponent may accept the results of the play and choose enforcement of the penalty:
a. On the try, or
b. On the subsequent kickoff
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After B makes their decision, now A's turn to accept or decline the penalty. But where would the spot of enforcement occur for team A.(Team B's penalty of unsportmanslike celebration)
I'm fairly certain I have this correct. I was waiting from one of the experts to chime in on specifics, but here goes ...
It's less complex than sounds (more often than not, both will choose KO and all is right in the world again).
Answering your Q, the enforcement spot for A on Bs foul will be determined by Bs decision on A foul. Possibilites are: R3 or R1-1/2 for PAT or K40 or R45 on KO.
Get Bs decision first (making sure he knows A has a decision based on his decision; then inform him that's it; no take-backs) then tell A what B decided and tell him his options.
There are 4 possibilities depending on who decides what (B option first).
>B opts KO (PAT spot 3YL; KO spot now R45)
⦁ A opts KO: PAT at 3YL and B KO from K40 (like nothing happened; most likely scenario)
⦁ A opts PAT: PAT from 18YL (but B KO will be from R45)
>B opts PAT (PAT spot now 1-1/2YL; KO spot K40)
⦁ A opts PAT: moves PAT to 16-1/2
⦁ A opts KO: PAT at 1-1/2 and B KO from K25
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A committed a Live Ball Foul followed by B committing a Dead Ball Foul
Team B gets first choice and can choose: Try, Kickoff, or Decline
After which, Team A can choose: Try, Kickoff, or Decline.
8-2-3, 8-2-5, 10-1-3, 10-5-1f
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I'm fairly certain I have this correct. I was waiting from one of the experts to chime in on specifics, but here goes ...
It's less complex than sounds (more often than not, both will choose KO and all is right in the world again).
Answering your Q, the enforcement spot for A on Bs foul will be determined by Bs decision on A foul. Possibilites are: R3 or R1-1/2 for PAT or K40 or R45 on KO.
Get Bs decision first (making sure he knows A has a decision based on his decision; then inform him that's it; no take-backs) then tell A what B decided and tell him his options.
There are 4 possibilities depending on who decides what (B option first).
>B opts KO (PAT spot 3YL; KO spot now R45)
⦁ A opts KO: PAT at 3YL and B KO from K40 (like nothing happened; most likely scenario)
⦁ A opts PAT: PAT from 18YL (but B KO will be from R45)
>B opts PAT (PAT spot now 1-1/2YL; KO spot K40)
⦁ A opts PAT: moves PAT to 16-1/2
⦁ A opts KO: PAT at 1-1/2 and B KO from K25
I believe you nailed it, Logical ! IMHO, bring both coaches ( assuming they are the penalty deciders) out on the field and ask B's coach first. If there are any "what ifs" from them, you'll clarify this only once.
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IMHO, bring both coaches (assuming they are the penalty deciders) out on the field and ask B's coach first. If there are any "what ifs" from them, you'll clarify this only once.
Very good suggestion; thanks
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I think the enforcement of the dead ball foul have potentials that are more harsh for Team B especially if this is a close game and they were going to go for 2 or have a hard time kicking point after attempts. As I read it no matter what Team B decides Team A could force team B back 15 yards on the PAT.
The original question asks where is the spot of enforcement for Team B unsportsmanlike penalty. As I have learned the spot is dependent on what Team B decides to do with Team A's personal foul.
The enforcement spot for the dead ball foul could be PAT 1 1/2 or R 45 on the kickoff
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I think the enforcement of the dead ball foul have potentials that are more harsh for Team B especially if this is a close game and they were going to go for 2 or have a hard time kicking point after attempts.
Then they shouldn't have committed an UNS. "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time."
No matter how many exceptions there are in a set of rules, there's always going to be instances of penalty enforcement that don't seem quite fair. Just the way it is. I don't think it's a goal of the NFHS rulemakers to be absolutely "fair" in every conceivable instance.
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The enforcement spot for the dead ball foul could be PAT 1 1/2 or R 45 on the kickoff
or PAT R3 or K40 on KO
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Then they shouldn't have committed an UNS. "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time."
No matter how many exceptions there are in a set of rules, there's always going to be instances of penalty enforcement that don't seem quite fair. Just the way it is. I don't think it's a goal of the NFHS rulemakers to be absolutely "fair" in every conceivable instance.
Absolutely agree, the rules are designed to match consequences to designated prohibitive behaviors (and are subject to constant review and applicability). Once established, EVERYONE is REQUIRED to comply with the rule, as written, whether they agree with it, or not, or risk the consequences their behavior produces.
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I think the enforcement of the dead ball foul have potentials that are more harsh for Team B especially if this is a close game and they were going to go for 2 or have a hard time kicking point after attempts. As I read it no matter what Team B decides Team A could force team B back 15 yards on the PAT.
The original question asks where is the spot of enforcement for Team B unsportsmanlike penalty. As I have learned the spot is dependent on what Team B decides to do with Team A's personal foul.
The enforcement spot for the dead ball foul could be PAT 1 1/2 or R 45 on the kickoff
This used to be the problem with dueling dead ball fouls when you're inside the 30. We correct that by having them cancel, but you can't apply that to a live ball- dead ball situation.