Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 03, 2022, 02:02:39 PM
And if we are not delaying play while changing balls do we allow a kicker to use a “kicking ball” if it is preinspected and marked prior to the start of the game?
Have been watching some NFHS games on YouTube and the “kicking ball” swap seems to be getting fairly common.
What say you?
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 03, 2022, 03:04:50 PM
Given that any official can now authorize/request a change of the ball and guidance that seems to becoming more widespread are we becoming more attentive to inspecting and marking acceptable game balls?I’ve been officiating 30+ years, and have never had a problem with an “unapproved” ball. In my personal and somewhat humble opinion, the obsession over approved versus unapproved balls is way over the top. As a rule, we don’t exchange balls between downs, even kicking downs. Sure,if the field is wet and or muddy, we make concessions, but we play with the same ball down to down unless we have a deep pass incomplete. Then we work a new ball in.
And if we are not delaying play while changing balls do we allow a kicker to use a “kicking ball” if it is preinspected and marked prior to the start of the game?
Have been watching some NFHS games on YouTube and the “kicking ball” swap seems to be getting fairly common.
What say you?
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Post by: HLinNC on November 03, 2022, 04:31:43 PM
Our umpires let our wings know when they need a new ball. We also get a new ball on long incompletes and if a ball is down in the side zone. A ball presented as "our kicking ball" is normally taken to the quarterback, if he says he'll play with it, we'll put it in the rotation. If he says no, then we won't accept it.
All the rule change did was codify what most of us have been doing anyway.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 03, 2022, 04:39:12 PM
I've had one ball in 28 years on the wing that was so obviously unsuitable- (slick, swollen)- that a team kept trying to hand in to me on 4th down that I threatened a flag the next time it appeared. An assistant coach took out a pocket knife and stabbed it and that ended the problem.Agree completely. Especially with the last statement.
Our umpires let our wings know when they need a new ball. We also get a new ball on long incompletes and if a ball is down in the side zone. A ball presented as "our kicking ball" is normally taken to the quarterback, if he says he'll play with it, we'll put it in the rotation. If he says no, then we won't accept it.
All the rule change did was codify what most of us have been doing anyway.
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Post by: refjeff on November 07, 2022, 06:18:19 AM
Rule Book 1.3.2 Each team brings out the approved ball they want to use for a free kick or to start of a series.
Case Book 1.3.3 A/K is not entitled to switch in a "kicking ball" for scrimmage kicks. Our crew does not allow it.
Post by: AlUpstateNY on November 07, 2022, 07:19:10 AM
The rule change codified what our crew has always done. I am the R, I have never switched out the ball.
Rule Book 1.3.2 Each team brings out the approved ball they want to use for a free kick or to start of a series.
Case Book 1.3.3 A/K is not entitled to switch in a "kicking ball" for scrimmage kicks. Our crew does not allow it.
Even before the new rule, allowing ANY official to reject a replacement ball, a replaced ball has to pass through, likely a couple of Officials hands, before getting into play (Wing Official, Umpire). If any of those hands didn't/doesn't like the way the new ball feels (pressure, surface, etc.) they should have ALWAYS been rejected and sent right back out. The old nonsense about special balls being snuck in to accommodate "special" pro QBs was likely nonsense, as multiple pro Officials get to handle (squeeze, touch) any ball on it's way from sideline to actual play. If the ball doesn't feel right, it shouldn't get in.
ANY ball, waiting on a sideline to get used, can lose pressure all by itself. The best protection against using a deficient ball, is STILL the game Official's hands passing it from the sideline to being placed RFP.
Post by: SCHSref on November 07, 2022, 09:51:31 AM
Given that any official can now authorize/request a change of the ball and guidance that seems to becoming more widespread are we becoming more attentive to inspecting and marking acceptable game balls?
And if we are not delaying play while changing balls do we allow a kicker to use a “kicking ball” if it is preinspected and marked prior to the start of the game?
Have been watching some NFHS games on YouTube and the “kicking ball” swap seems to be getting fairly common.
What say you?
Why do you "mark" a ball?
Post by: MAFBRef on November 07, 2022, 11:10:05 AM
Post by: SCHSref on November 07, 2022, 11:39:38 AM
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 07, 2022, 12:47:22 PM
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Post by: SCHSref on November 07, 2022, 02:28:25 PM
Are you suggesting we don’t mark the footballs? If so, what do you suggest we do to ensure the Umpire knows that the ball coming is has been approved by the Referee?
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How many footballs must be approved by rule?
Post by: HLinNC on November 07, 2022, 03:40:35 PM
1-3-ART. 2 ... Each team shall provide at least one legal ball to the referee at the time the game officials assume authority for the contest. Only legal balls approved by the referee may be used during the contest.
A team can submit as many as they want.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 07, 2022, 05:21:16 PM
Maybe...but the markings are not required by the rules.
We'll disagree with that. without marking the "approved ball(s)" there is no way to verify the fact that they are legal under the rule.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 07, 2022, 05:33:17 PM
How many footballs must be approved by rule?At least one.
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Post by: CalhounLJ on November 07, 2022, 05:34:53 PM
How many footballs must be approved by rule?Are you going to answer my question?
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Post by: SCHSref on November 07, 2022, 09:33:47 PM
We'll disagree with that. without marking the "approved ball(s)" there is no way to verify the fact that they are legal under the rule.
I just usually inspect them at pre-game.
Post by: SCHSref on November 07, 2022, 09:34:56 PM
Are you going to answer my question?
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I’m not suggesting that anyone mark or not mark them. There is no rule requiring that it is done. I understand why people do it, but it’s more of a preference than anything else
Post by: HLinNC on November 07, 2022, 10:40:33 PM
Quote
There is no rule requiring that it is done. I understand why people do it, but it’s more of a preference than anything else
There is no rule we mark the midpoint on the chains yet we do it to ease administering the game. There is no rule that says I give the outside receiver my foot to mark his limit for being on his side of the LOS but it sure saves needless encroachment fouls.
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 08, 2022, 06:15:11 AM
I’m not suggesting that anyone mark or not mark them. There is no rule requiring that it is done. I understand why people do it, but it’s more of a preference than anything else
So when you inspect and approve 1 or more game balls you don't verify later as balls are being swapped in and out that it's a pre-approved ball?
Post by: ilyazhito on November 08, 2022, 01:11:35 PM
Post by: SCHSref on November 08, 2022, 01:32:13 PM
There is no rule we mark the midpoint on the chains yet we do it to ease administering the game. There is no rule that says I give the outside receiver my foot to mark his limit for being on his side of the LOS but it sure saves needless encroachment fouls.
That’s mechanics versus rules
Post by: SCHSref on November 08, 2022, 01:32:55 PM
So when you inspect and approve 1 or more game balls you don't verify later as balls are being swapped in and out that it's a pre-approved ball?
Nope
Post by: HLinNC on November 08, 2022, 02:13:18 PM
Strange hill you're choosing to die on.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 08, 2022, 05:00:07 PM
That’s mechanics versus rulesThis is really not the mountain you are trying to make it out to be. Marking the ball is a very good mechanic to make sure the rules concerning legal game balls is applied. What’s your problem?
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Post by: CalhounLJ on November 08, 2022, 05:00:56 PM
NopeThen you are not very efficient in your duties.
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Post by: SCHSref on November 09, 2022, 11:02:39 AM
Then you are not very efficient in your duties.
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You are definitely entitled to your opinion. I'm fine with that. Followed the rules. If mechanics suggest it, then that will be followed as well.
Post by: SCHSref on November 09, 2022, 11:08:19 AM
This is really not the mountain you are trying to make it out to be. Marking the ball is a very good mechanic to make sure the rules concerning legal game balls is applied. What’s your problem?
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I just brought something up for discussion. Never once did I ask what someone's problem was if they marked the football. Curious as to why they do it. That's all.
I believe it is important to know what is in the rules and isn't. If it isn't in the rules, then whatever we do is subject to criticism and it might be valid...each situation would tell us that. I've never rated anyone down because they put their initials on the football. When they do, I've never seen the umpire check the ball when it is brought in to him. Again, I get WHY it's done...it's just not necessary. One could, and has, make the argument they believe it is a good practice. I'm fine with that. Doesn't make it a requirement unless specifically stated in rules or mechanics manuals. It's just something someone chooses to do.
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 09, 2022, 01:21:15 PM
Are you suggesting we don’t mark the footballs? If so, what do you suggest we do to ensure the Umpire knows that the ball coming is has been approved by the Referee?You still haven’t answered my question.
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Post by: CalhounLJ on November 09, 2022, 01:22:40 PM
I just brought something up for discussion. Never once did I ask what someone's problem was if they marked the football. Curious as to why they do it. That's all.My Umpire looks for the mark on every football that comes in. We’ve thrown some out during the game that came in unmarked. Maybe not everybody is like you.
I believe it is important to know what is in the rules and isn't. If it isn't in the rules, then whatever we do is subject to criticism and it might be valid...each situation would tell us that. I've never rated anyone down because they put their initials on the football. When they do, I've never seen the umpire check the ball when it is brought in to him. Again, I get WHY it's done...it's just not necessary. One could, and has, make the argument they believe it is a good practice. I'm fine with that. Doesn't make it a requirement unless specifically stated in rules or mechanics manuals. It's just something someone chooses to do.
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Post by: SCHSref on November 09, 2022, 03:04:19 PM
You still haven’t answered my question.
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I did
Post by: SCHSref on November 09, 2022, 03:07:52 PM
My Umpire looks for the mark on every football that comes in. We’ve thrown some out during the game that came in unmarked. Maybe not everybody is like you.
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That's really cool that they do. My main position isn't R.
I actually like your posts. I know you know the rules. Hope you have a good Friday game.
Post by: Ralph Damren on November 10, 2022, 06:39:32 AM
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 10, 2022, 07:28:16 AM
Or, would there be any way to “pre-approve” bringing in a new ball? Something along the lines of a pregame statement: “Ok guys, if we have a long pass out of bounds tonight, I’m pre-approving a new ball being brought in.”
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Post by: bama_stripes on November 10, 2022, 01:05:18 PM
It’s the opinion of our PTB that allowing ball boys to run balls in after every play is good, in that it gives more young kids a chance to feel like a part of the team and keep them interested in playing when they get to high school.
It’s also the opinion of our PTB that changing balls after every play doesn’t affect the competitive balance of the game, and isn’t a hill worth dying on, even if may be a technical violation of the rules.
I personally would rather have the ballboy give the new ball to a wing and let us triangle it in, but they didn’t ask me, so....