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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: Kianlo on December 14, 2022, 11:31:25 PM
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Albany v Mart. I didn't manage to turn it on until late in the 3rd quarter. Albany had it well in hand at that point, but the announcers mentioned that Mart had to kick off both halves. Anybody know why?
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Albany won and deferred. Mart chose to kick and R tried 3 times to talk the captain out of it but to no avail.
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Albany won and deferred. Mart chose to kick and R tried 3 times to talk the captain out of it but to no avail.
you don't give him that option to kick once the other teams has deferred.
these are 16-18 yearly kids. you tell the losing team you will receive and ask the winning team what direction they are kicking from.
sounds like somebody wanted to be noticed on tv.
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you don't give him that option to kick once the other teams has deferred.
these are 16-18 yearly kids. you tell the losing team you will receive and ask the winning team what direction they are kicking from.
sounds like somebody wanted to be noticed on tv.
Agreed. I never give them the option. Just like at them and say you want the ball and then ask the team that won the toss which way they want to kick.
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After a defer, you give the other team 3 options, receive, receive or receive. And if they say anything else, you look at their other captains and say if he says any word that I do not say you have my permission to tackle him right now on this field. Then repeat, you have 3 options....Don't let a teenager screw this up, especially in the biggest game of their lives.
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you don't give him that option to kick once the other teams has deferred.
these are 16-18 yearly kids. you tell the losing team you will receive and ask the winning team what direction they are kicking from.
sounds like somebody wanted to be noticed on tv.
Baloney. Yes, these are young men, but they’re NOT children, except when we treat them like children. This is a coaching failure. The coin toss ain’t rocket science. Take a few minutes, coach, to teach your players - ALL of your players - what happens during a coin toss. And make sure ALL of your captains know what you want if you win (directly, or if the opponent defers), or what to do if the opponent wins and chooses to receive, or if they choose to defend a goal, or if they choose to kick. Yes, I have seen all three, and that’s what they wanted.
Darrell Royal would almost always elect to defend the south goal when he played in Lubbock, to take advantage of the strong prevailing south wind. That meant they would kickoff both halves. No, that doesn’t apply to the Mart situation, but, for all we know, Mart wanted to kickoff and play defense, believing they could hold Albany deep in their end, and get field position advantage.
The first choice is the only thing at issue. So, before going out for the coin toss, do one of two things. Ask the head coaches of each team what they want, if they have the first choice. Write it on your card. Or, ask the speaking captain if he knows what to do if they have the first choice.
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Especially this far along in the season!
Players didn’t get to SC being dumb kids
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That is absolutely ridiculous to allow this to happen. Really made it about the officials on this one, need to be better. Do we give options on a FST or do we just mark off 5? Same concept here, team defers we give the other team the ball and move on, we do not need to make it dramatic or controversial.
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Do we give options on a FST ...
Most of the time, no. But, we have seen teams decline such penalties when it will keep a field goal kick attempt a sharper angle. Never say never.
And, we still don't know for certain that Mart didn't WANT to kickoff. Yes, highly unusual - rare, actually - but not impossible.
Like I said, try to find out ahead of time what the teams would want to do if they have the first choice. We can't just tell a team what they will do. Sure, if Team A defers, then ASK Team B, "You want to receive - right?"
To just do something to "move on" is clearly a selfish act to get the game over with ASAP. And THAT is making it about the officials, and not the game. If you don't want to be there, and do the job right, get out of the way. There are a lot of other folks that will do it right.
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After halftime the sideline reporter said that Mart coach was upset how his team started. Starting with the coin flip. She said he wasn’t happy about it. Kid may have screwed up. So I’ll take that as certain as can be. When they show replay of game we can listen to it.
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Like I said, try to find out ahead of time what the teams would want to do if they have the first choice. We can't just tell a team what they will do. Sure, if Team A defers, then ASK Team B, "You want to receive - right?"
FWIW, this is exactly how I do it, too. Give team B every opportunity to get it right, but if they really really want to kick, well, it will be a learning experience for the entire team. Or change the rules to have the coaches give the options.
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FWIW, this is exactly how I do it, too. Give team B every opportunity to get it right, but if they really really want to kick, well, it will be a learning experience for the entire team. Or change the rules to have the coaches give the options.
I agree with you guys, after the deffered I'll ask : "I assume you want the ball..". It ain't always the kids or the ref that goofs. This occurred a few years ago with a new coach (NFHS):
Scene: Tie game, overtime 3 minute intermission, coach calls me over
Act I : COACH : "Ain't never done one of these before,, what's gonna' happen" ??? ??? ???
ME: "It'll start with a coin toss, winner can choose going first on offense or defense and end of field to play" yEs:
COACH : "Which is the best choice :o ??? :o"
ME: "Err. ,,,well, in baseball ,the team batting last knows what they have to do in extra innings ::) :!# ".
COACH : Ayah,'spect that make sense...."
Act II Turning towards captian, COACH sez' : "So if we win the toss, we'll go on offense 8] !"
As captain and I stroll toward toward midfield, CAPAIN: "That ain't what ya' told coach,is it :!# ?"
ME: "Just listen to your coach, son, just listen to your coach 8]."
ACT III His team won ^good
I knew that I never wanted to be a coach. hEaDbAnG
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After halftime the sideline reporter said that Mart coach was upset how his team started. Starting with the coin flip. She said he wasn’t happy about it. Kid may have screwed up. So I’ll take that as certain as can be. When they show replay of game we can listen to it.
I looked. They didn’t televise the flip
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Most of the time, no. But, we have seen teams decline such penalties when it will keep a field goal kick attempt a sharper angle. Never say never.
We NEVER “give” the coach the option with FST, we announce and begin to enforce then if the coach says decline it we will but we do not proactively go looking for a decision.
Similarly here, we should NEVER give that option. If the coach really wanted to kick both times he would come tell us.
We are “coaching” players basically the entire game by preventative officiating. Getting in between players, warning players on formations, lining up in NZ, hands outside the frame, etc. Why would not in this situation.
Absolutely absurd to allow this to happen in the first game of the season or the Championship.
The crew handled this very poorly and will hopefully learn from this and make sure this never happens again in one of their games.
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We NEVER “give” the coach the option with FST, we announce and begin to enforce then if the coach says decline it we will but we do not proactively go looking for a decision.
Similarly here, we should NEVER give that option. If the coach really wanted to kick both times he would come tell us.
We are “coaching” players basically the entire game by preventative officiating. Getting in between players, warning players on formations, lining up in NZ, hands outside the frame, etc. Why would not in this situation.
Absolutely absurd to allow this to happen in the first game of the season or the Championship.
The crew handled this very poorly and will hopefully learn from this and make sure this never happens again in one of their games.
I don’t speak for everyone, and neither do you. The choice is theirs, not ours. If the choice is obvious, we do not need to seek a choice from the team. But, there are times when even a false start isn’t obvious. On at least two occasions (over 47 season), I’ve had a team decline a foul by their opponent when Team A was about to attempt a very short, sharp angle field goal. One was a false start, and one was a DOF with contact. On the FST, the defense didn’t want to decrease the angle. On the DOF, the offense didn’t want to increase the angle. In both cases, we got the sideline official to check with the offended HC, and, without hesitation, they made the choice to decline.
Know the situation, and consult with the HC if there is a any possible question.
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Know the situation, and consult with the HC if there is an any possible question.
Unless a player wants to kickoff twice???
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Over the past two years I worked a team's game three times. The first two it was windy and both times the coach chose to defend and end so they kicked both halves but that was discussed in pregame. The third game wind was not a factor but when I reminded him that I have never had a game for him that he didn't choose to defend an end. So, with that knowledge, he didn't want to break the streak so he chose to defend an end.
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Over the past two years I worked a team's game three times. The first two it was windy and both times the coach chose to defend and end so they kicked both halves but that was discussed in pregame. The third game wind was not a factor but when I reminded him that I have never had a game for him that he didn't choose to defend an end. So, with that knowledge, he didn't want to break the streak so he chose to defend an end.
:thumbup :thumbup :thumbup
Like I said, from Texarkana to El Paso, Dalhart to Brownsville, prior to the coin toss, try to find out what the HC of both teams would want to do if they have the first choice. And quiz the captains if they know what to do if they have the first choice.
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We NEVER “give” the coach the option with FST, we announce and begin to enforce then if the coach says decline it we will but we do not proactively go looking for a decision.
Similarly here, we should NEVER give that option. If the coach really wanted to kick both times he would come tell us.
We are “coaching” players basically the entire game by preventative officiating. Getting in between players, warning players on formations, lining up in NZ, hands outside the frame, etc. Why would not in this situation.
Absolutely absurd to allow this to happen in the first game of the season or the Championship.
The crew handled this very poorly and will hopefully learn from this and make sure this never happens again in one of their games.
I agree. Typically if a coach is going to choose to kick or to defend an end, he will let the officials know beforehand. If he doesn't, the crew should use common sense and not let the player screw up, then make a correction if indeed the coach meant to kick or defend an end. It will be so rare that you need to go with the percentages and correct in the very rare occurrence it is necessary.
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I don’t speak for everyone, and neither do you. The choice is theirs, not ours. If the choice is obvious, we do not need to seek a choice from the team. But, there are times when even a false start isn’t obvious. On at least two occasions (over 47 season), I’ve had a team decline a foul by their opponent when Team A was about to attempt a very short, sharp angle field goal. One was a false start, and one was a DOF with contact. On the FST, the defense didn’t want to decrease the angle. On the DOF, the offense didn’t want to increase the angle. In both cases, we got the sideline official to check with the offended HC, and, without hesitation, they made the choice to decline.
Know the situation, and consult with the HC if there is a any possible question.
A very successful HS coach ALWAYS chose "to kick" when he won the toss. When asked why, he simply stated, "HS kids are more pumped up and ready to play defense to start a game." Couldn't argue with that logic.
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I'm not an R but of course I've Reffed plenty of sub varsity games. In 20 odd years, I've only let a team kick starting both halves once. The home team won the toss and the captain said WE WANT TO KICK. I told him that I think he wanted to defer, that way his team would get the ball first to begin the 2nd half. He told me, COACH SAID WE WANT TO KICK. I turned and took a few steps towards the sideline and yelled to the coach, COACH YOU WON THE TOSS, WOULD YOU LIKE TO DEFER. He replied, NO WE WANT TO KICK. There was no big wind, so I said COACH, IF YOU DEFER, YOU GET THE BALL FIRST IN THE 2ND HALF...before I could finish, he screamed IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR HEARING? WE WANT TO KICK. Message received coach. At the end of the half, which way would you like to kick coach? Needless to say, he was HACKED.
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In Maine we bring the head coach out to the coin-toss to satsify 1-1-5 (the NFHS 'be nice' rule). Often the coach reminds his speaking captain of the choice to be taken on our journey to midfield. Again, asking the winning captain :"DO YOU WANT TO DEFER.....?" Should erase any thoughts of kicking from his mind.
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In Maine we bring the head coach out to the coin-toss to satsify 1-1-5 (the NFHS 'be nice' rule). Often the coach reminds his speaking captain of the choice to be taken on our journey to midfield. Again, asking the winning captain :"DO YOU WANT TO DEFER.....?" Should erase any thoughts of kicking from his mind.
It's NOT our choice to decide if the Coach made the right decision, or the Captain was empowered to make the choice, if YOU have ANY doubt that YOU may have misunderstood the choice that was made, it's really a good idea to check with the Coach to "verify" YOUR understanding of the choice made. When in doubt, "seeking advise is usually better than having later to beg forgiveness."
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I'm not an R but of course I've Reffed plenty of sub varsity games. In 20 odd years, I've only let a team kick starting both halves once. The home team won the toss and the captain said WE WANT TO KICK. I told him that I think he wanted to defer, that way his team would get the ball first to begin the 2nd half. He told me, COACH SAID WE WANT TO KICK. I turned and took a few steps towards the sideline and yelled to the coach, COACH YOU WON THE TOSS, WOULD YOU LIKE TO DEFER. He replied, NO WE WANT TO KICK. There was no big wind, so I said COACH, IF YOU DEFER, YOU GET THE BALL FIRST IN THE 2ND HALF...before I could finish, he screamed IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR HEARING? WE WANT TO KICK. Message received coach. At the end of the half, which way would you like to kick coach? Needless to say, he was HACKED.
I believe the Captain (with/without concurrence from their HC) correctly calling the coin toss, has the option to select his choice (to kick, receive or choose a goal to defend) or to "defer" (make that choice prior to the second half KO). He DOESN'T get to choose for both half's. He gets the same 3 choices for the second half regardless of what the opponent chooses to begin the game. (K, R or D).
If, after choosing to defer, the opponent gets the SAME 3 choices for the 1st half, and should that opponent then choose to Kick, the coin toss winner can only choose to Receive or Defend a goal, and the original toss winner gets to choose "which goal to defend", while maintaining to exercise his (full) choice for the 2nd half.
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I have told more than a few coaches to never say kick (though there might be a 1 in 10,00 chance they might want to kick). In sub varsity games, my U and I would always tell the captains before we left the sideline to never tell a official they want to kick. If they tell me that's what the coach wants, I call the coach over before going to the middle of the field. This is one of the best Preventive Officiating examples you can share and NEVER get called out for. For varsity games, I tried to never leave the sideline or meet the captains in the middle of the field without knowing what the coaches wanted to do.
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I believe the Captain (with/without concurrence from their HC) correctly calling the coin toss, has the option to select his choice (to kick, receive or choose a goal to defend) or to "defer" (make that choice prior to the second half KO). He DOESN'T get to choose for both half's. He gets the same 3 choices for the second half regardless of what the opponent chooses to begin the game. (K, R or D).
If, after choosing to defer, the opponent gets the SAME 3 choices for the 1st half, and should that opponent then choose to Kick, the coin toss winner can only choose to Receive or Defend a goal, and the original toss winner gets to choose "which goal to defend", while maintaining to exercise his (full) choice for the 2nd half.
Al, this is NCAA football, nothing else. The UIL (Texas) has no exceptions to the coin toss procedure (other than that the coaches may choose to have the coin toss between themselves at some time other than 3 minutes before scheduled KO).
Whether coaches or captains, the first thing that happens is the coin toss itself, which ONLY determines which team will have the first choice of options for the kickoff, itself. Before there was the ability of a team to 'defer' their first choice of kickoff options, the winner of the coin toss had the first choice of the kickoff options for the first half, and that was that.
For some time now, the winner of the toss has had the ability to elect to have their first choice of kickoff options for the first half, or may elect to 'defer' their first choice of kickoff options to the second half kickoff.
So, after the team with the first choice of kickoff options is determined (first half or second half), by rule, that team has two options to choose: 1) To designate which team shall kickoff (making the other team the receiving team, by default), or 2) select the goal line they will defend in that period.
That's it. Not three options. Two (2).
Now, many people have morphed that into a dumbed-down statement: The team with the first choice can choose to "kick, receive, or defend a goal." In most cases, that proves to be the effect. But those are NOT the actual choices to be made.
Yes, during the toss, if the team with the first choice says, "We'll receive," we simply know that they actually mean they are designating their opponent to kick off (after all, if they want to receive, their opponent has to be the one kicking off). Then the opponent has the choice of which end they will defend.
I have had a team choose to kick, as their first option. And they truly wanted to kick. They had a very good kicker, and a very good defense, and felt they could get great field position by pinning their opponent deep in their own end of the field. But, of course, by choosing to kick, they gave up the ability to choose which end of the field they would defend. They didn't care. The wind was very mild that day, and would not have affected their kicker much. But, we knew that is what they wanted, by asking the HC before the coin toss.
We should not be pointing fingers at the officials in the coin toss case that started this discussion. The blame should be placed squarely on the shoulders of the person responsible for teaching their players the game of football, which includes the rules of the game (of which, the coin toss is part and parcel). That person is the Head Coach. If he teaches them the rules, then we won't be having to conduct a mini-clinic on the coin toss and kickoff optipons before the coin toss, or, worse, during the coin toss procedure. Oh. He doesn't know the rules, you say? Well, how can he fix that problem? Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?
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I'm not sure if it showed on the TV broadcast but as the teams are entering the field for the start of the game, the North Shore coach was being interviewed by the sideline reporter and he noticed his captains were lining up. He quickly, without warning to the reporter, ran 20 yards to his captains to give them instructions. He then returned back to the sideline reporter to resume the interview. I imagine he saw the Mart game and didn't want his captains to screw it up.
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Al, this is NCAA football, nothing else. The UIL (Texas) has no exceptions to the coin toss procedure (other than that the coaches may choose to have the coin toss between themselves at some time other than 3 minutes before scheduled KO).
Whether coaches or captains, the first thing that happens is the coin toss itself, which ONLY determines which team will have the first choice of options for the kickoff, itself. Before there was the ability of a team to 'defer' their first choice of kickoff options, the winner of the coin toss had the first choice of the kickoff options for the first half, and that was that.
For some time now, the winner of the toss has had the ability to elect to have their first choice of kickoff options for the first half, or may elect to 'defer' their first choice of kickoff options to the second half kickoff.
So, after the team with the first choice of kickoff options is determined (first half or second half), by rule, that team has two options to choose: 1) To designate which team shall kickoff (making the other team the receiving team, by default), or 2) select the goal line they will defend in that period.
That's it. Not three options. Two (2).
Now, many people have morphed that into a dumbed-down statement: The team with the first choice can choose to "kick, receive, or defend a goal." In most cases, that proves to be the effect. But those are NOT the actual choices to be made.
Yes, during the toss, if the team with the first choice says, "We'll receive," we simply know that they actually mean they are designating their opponent to kick off (after all, if they want to receive, their opponent has to be the one kicking off). Then the opponent has the choice of which end they will defend.
I have had a team choose to kick, as their first option. And they truly wanted to kick. They had a very good kicker, and a very good defense, and felt they could get great field position by pinning their opponent deep in their own end of the field. But, of course, by choosing to kick, they gave up the ability to choose which end of the field they would defend. They didn't care. The wind was very mild that day, and would not have affected their kicker much. But, we knew that is what they wanted, by asking the HC before the coin toss.
We should not be pointing fingers at the officials in the coin toss case that started this discussion. The blame should be placed squarely on the shoulders of the person responsible for teaching their players the game of football, which includes the rules of the game (of which, the coin toss is part and parcel). That person is the Head Coach. If he teaches them the rules, then we won't be having to conduct a mini-clinic on the coin toss and kickoff optipons before the coin toss, or, worse, during the coin toss procedure. Oh. He doesn't know the rules, you say? Well, how can he fix that problem? Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?
I thought that was basically, what I was trying to say.
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A question for Elvis.
If receive has morphed to "the other ream kicking", why hasn't kick morphed to defer? Seem like that solves 99.99% of the confusion.
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A question for Elvis.
If receive has morphed to "the other ream kicking", why hasn't kick morphed to defer? Seem like that solves 99.99% of the confusion.
Read the 8th paragraph of my message of 12/19. That’s why not. And that is why the rule is as it is.
I will draw the ire of many, I’m sure, but this goes back to the earliest days of American football, when the rules were written by the players who were actually playing the game at the time. They were “college guys,” long before we had politicians wanting give away college educations to everybody. Back then, people that went to college were more motivated and, on average, more intelligent than the rest of the general population of the country. They didn’t need the rules to be dumbed-down to their level, like so many players and coaches today. Sadly, we seem to see a continual lowering of standards for almost everything in the country, these days.
I was bummed when Redding removed the provision for a team scored upon to decide which team would kick off. So, even if a team, behind in score, scores to narrow the scoring gap to 93 points, their opponent doesn’t have the ability to be merciful and choose to kickoff (so as to give the team behind a chance to avoid losing by 100 points). That was nothing but dumbing down. Not the worst example, I’ll grant you, but an example, nonetheless. A more egregious example is when Redding changed the “inbounds lines” to “hash marks.” The only people that knew their correct name was “inbounds lines” were officials, and we all knew that. No need to dumb the rules down for us. But he did.
Let’s pretend the players are young men (and some women) with brains, and try to teach them the actual rules. They just might respond by understanding them, and making good choices (coin toss or actual playing of the game). And be better coaches after their playing days.
Somebody wake me up…
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Read the 8th paragraph of my message of 12/19. T
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