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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: NVFOA_Ump on October 20, 2023, 11:45:06 AM
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Last night's varsity game. As we know, lots can happen on kick plays. K kicks off to open 2nd half in a 7-0 game, K is leading.
- Flag #1 - During R's return at the 50 yard line / R-33 for Block In the Back
- Flag #2 - K player gets up and retaliates and decks R-33 at the K-40 yard line / PF-UNR
- Flag #3 - R runner returns the kick for a TD and K player flattens him 8 yards deep in the EZ / PF-UNR
What do we end up with and are there any real options here?
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My initial reaction is his is a double foul situation. The Flag 1 & 2 would off-set and re-kick. Flag 3 is a dead ball foul and we are going to back K up 15 yards and they will re-kick from the 25 yd. line.
Something tells me it's not that straightforward. If we have a PSK foul for Flag #1, that foul can be enforced-but R has to decline the penalty for Flag 2 to keep the ball. Then we can administer the dead ball penalty on K. Since Flag 1 would result in bringing the ball back to the R40. We would mark off 15 yards the other way and R would have the ball to start at the K45.
It would seem that this brain teaser would require the referee to give both teams their options and watch the coach's head spin as he processed it all. cRaZy
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My initial reaction is his is a double foul situation. The Flag 1 & 2 would off-set and re-kick. Flag 3 is a dead ball foul and we are going to back K up 15 yards and they will re-kick from the 25 yd. line.
Something tells me it's not that straightforward. If we have a PSK foul for Flag #1, that foul can be enforced-but R has to decline the penalty for Flag 2 to keep the ball. Then we can administer the dead ball penalty on K. Since Flag 1 would result in bringing the ball back to the R40. We would mark off 15 yards the other way and R would have the ball to start at the K45.
It would seem that this brain teaser would require the referee to give both teams their options and watch the coach's head spin as he processed it all. cRaZy
PSK only applies to Scrimmage Kicks.
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R got the ball with clean hands so they can keep it by declininmg K's live ball foul (K's player is gone). R can than take the ball @ K's 45 (50-10 BIB + 15 DBPF) or replay the down with kick from K's 25.
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PSK only applies to Scrimmage Kicks.
This is correct, however, R could still decline the live ball foul on K and keep the ball.
The PSK clause applies to fouls during scrimmage kicks, prior to R gaining possession. Once R has possession and is returning the kick (and it's no longer a 'kick'), R has the ball with clean hands and can decline fouls on K to keep the ball, enforcing any of their own post-possession fouls -- regardless if the kick is scrimmage or free.
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I agree.
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PSK only applies to Scrimmage Kicks.
Not to mention, in OP scenario the block in the back is during the return. Hence, the kick had ended so it can't be PSK. (hypothetically speaking if this was a scrimmage kick and not free kick).
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R got the ball with clean hands so they can keep it by declininmg K's live ball foul (K's player is gone). R can than take the ball @ K's 45 (50-10 BIB + 15 DBPF) or replay the down with kick from K's 25.
I find it very helpful to start every COP foul enforcement with that question, did R/B get the ball with clean hands? With the to that, everything else kind of falls in place.
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I find it very helpful to start every COP foul enforcement with that question, did R/B get the ball with clean hands? With the to that, everything else kind of falls in place.
IMHO, Who, What, WHEN, Where is of the most important.