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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: Brian26 on October 21, 2023, 02:41:22 PM
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Hope this video clip works.
Last play of the game a free kick after awarded fair catch. Three things stand out to me; the officials position on the formation, the formation is illegal and last few seconds run off on the clock.
Am I correct on this?
https://twitter.com/i/status/1715202093093396949
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Right on all counts.
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Formation is illegal because not at least 4 guys on each side of kicker?
Free kicks can only take place after a fair catch correct. If ball gets kicked out of bounds or rolls out of bounds on its own then you cannot free kick correct?
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Formation is illegal because not at least 4 guys on each side of kicker?
Free kicks can only take place after a fair catch correct. If ball gets kicked out of bounds or rolls out of bounds on its own then you cannot free kick correct?
Yes, have to have at least four on each side (free kick rules apply) and only have the option after awarded fair catch.
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Yes, have to have at least four on each side (free kick rules apply) and only have the option after awarded fair catch.
The option exists after a regular fair catch too. Awarded fair catches are only the result of the enforcement of a kick catch interference penalty.
Additionally, the choices remain if the down following the fair catch (or awarded fair catch) is repeated due to penalty or inadvertent whistle. Meaning, if R chooses to snap the ball after a fair catch, throws an incomplete pass but there was DPI called, R (now A) can choose to free kick instead on the repeated 1st down 15 yards closer to the goal posts.
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The option exists after a regular fair catch too. Awarded fair catches are only the result of the enforcement of a kick catch interference penalty.
Additionally, the choices remain if the down following the fair catch (or awarded fair catch) is repeated due to penalty or inadvertent whistle. Meaning, if R chooses to snap the ball after a fair catch, throws an incomplete pass but there was DPI called, R (now A) can choose to free kick instead on the repeated 1st down 15 yards closer to the goal posts.
My bad I should be more clear.
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A FREE KICK IS STILL A FREE KICK.....
BAD THINGS....
(1) Not 4 players on each side of the kicker ^flag
(2) BJ is on field INSIDE of a few players :o
(3) Clock shouldn't start until legally touched :!#
GOOD THINGS .....
(1) Chains were set to provide NZ :thumbup
Thanks, Brian, for sharing this.. it's a rare play that has been on my bucket list for 52 of my 54 years as a z^. (My first 2 years were NCAA in Connecticut where this isn't available). I'm still waiting :) :bOW ^good ^no
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GOOD THINGS .....
(1) Chains were set to provide NZ :thumbup
I'd bet that was by accident. There's a punt, a penalty, distance gets marked off and ball spotted at the 30, so the chain crew just sets up at the 30, because that's what they do as if it was a normal 1st down scrimmage play.
Honestly, we're kicking from a big line. I don't think we need the chains to measure 10 yards in that situation.
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A FREE KICK IS STILL A FREE KICK.....
BAD THINGS....
(1) Not 4 players on each side of the kicker ^flag
(2) BJ is on field INSIDE of a few players :o
(3) Clock shouldn't start until legally touched :!#
GOOD THINGS .....
(1) Chains were set to provide NZ :thumbup
Thanks, Brian, for sharing this.. it's a rare play that has been on my bucket list for 52 of my 54 years as a z^. (My first 2 years were NCAA in Connecticut where this isn't available). I'm still waiting :) :bOW ^good ^no
also, white hat is on receiver restraining line.....should be under the goal post
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Good catch, Fudillgas,R should be back with U under the pipes....preparing to call something they probably never have called before. ^good ^no :!#
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* Free Kick Infraction by K but this is an officiating error so I would let it go. (6-1-4)
* The Game clock started on the Kick which is incorrect. The game clock should not have started at all. (3-4-3, 3-4-5)
* Dead Ball UNS on Team K for violation of (9-8-1i) Penalty shall be enforced on the subsequent kickoff
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* Free Kick Infraction by K but this is an officiating error so I would let it go. (6-1-4)
* The Game clock started on the Kick which is incorrect. The game clock should not have started at all. (3-4-3, 3-4-5)
* Dead Ball UNS on Team K for violation of (9-8-1i) Penalty shall be enforced on the subsequent kickoff
The third * is extremely nit picky, and shows a misunderstanding between the rule and the spirit of the rule. No way under heaven I would ever throw that flag.
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* Free Kick Infraction by K but this is an officiating error so I would let it go. (6-1-4)
* The Game clock started on the Kick which is incorrect. The game clock should not have started at all. (3-4-3, 3-4-5)
* Dead Ball UNS on Team K for violation of (9-8-1i) Penalty shall be enforced on the subsequent kickoff
IF there was still time on the clock as there should be, then ya call that USC. But with the clock at zeroes you have nothing to call because the game was over at that point.
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IF there was still time on the clock as there should be, then ya call that USC. But with the clock at zeroes you have nothing to call because the game was over at that point.
I would like to think that every official on the field was aware of the actual time remaining prior to the kick and that the clock should not run on the play. That's a must, especially at crunch time. And technically the game was not over as we have a timing error that should have been corrected.
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I would like to think that every official on the field was aware of the actual time remaining prior to the kick and that the clock should not run on the play. That's a must, especially at crunch time. And technically the game was not over as we have a timing error that should have been corrected.
The players see zeroes and they are celebrating a win. You are going to call an excessive celebration unsportsmanlike on that? NO WAY! Don't be that guy
^no
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The players see zeroes and they are celebrating a win. You are going to call an excessive celebration unsportsmanlike on that? NO WAY! Don't be that guy
^no
I simply suggested that we correct the clock because by rule that's a correctable error. IMHO we should NEVER allow a game to end when we have made an obvious timing error.
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It has been 25 years since I called a NFHS game. I find this play very interesting. This play is covered in the Scoring section of the NFHS rule book. The play is considered a field goal attempt with no mention of free kick in this section. In other places it does denote Free Kick. I don't think it is intuitive that all "Free Kick" rules apply. Since this is a very rare occurrence, a note could be added in the scoring section that this field goal attempt is governed by all Free Kick rules, timing, and mechanics.
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It has been 25 years since I called a NFHS game. I find this play very interesting. This play is covered in the Scoring section of the NFHS rule book. The play is considered a field goal attempt with no mention of free kick in this section. In other places it does denote Free Kick. I don't think it is intuitive that all "Free Kick" rules apply. Since this is a very rare occurrence, a note could be added in the scoring section that this field goal attempt is governed by all Free Kick rules, timing, and mechanics.
6-1-1c, 6-1-1d, and 6-5-4
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It has been 25 years since I called a NFHS game. I find this play very interesting. This play is covered in the Scoring section of the NFHS rule book. The play is considered a field goal attempt with no mention of free kick in this section. In other places it does denote Free Kick. I don't think it is intuitive that all "Free Kick" rules apply. Since this is a very rare occurrence, a note could be added in the scoring section that this field goal attempt is governed by all Free Kick rules, timing, and mechanics.
Already clearly in the rules as noted by KWM in his post.
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It has been 25 years since I called a NFHS game. I find this play very interesting. This play is covered in the Scoring section of the NFHS rule book. The play is considered a field goal attempt with no mention of free kick in this section. In other places it does denote Free Kick. I don't think it is intuitive that all "Free Kick" rules apply. Since this is a very rare occurrence, a note could be added in the scoring section that this field goal attempt is governed by all Free Kick rules, timing, and mechanics.
Common sense should dictate that a free kick is governed by free kick rules, timing, and mechanics. Also, as has been mentioned, KWH has provided the relevant rules references
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I simply suggested that we correct the clock because by rule that's a correctable error. IMHO we should NEVER allow a game to end when we have made an obvious timing error.
Agreed we correct the clock. But that has nothing to do with not calling an unsportsmanlike when the game appears to be over.
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Unsportsmanlike would not even be on the table if it weren't for the damned clock operator who gets to sit in a dry booth and eat all the Snickers Bars sNiCkErS
I think several of you may have missed my point!
Both fouls related to this play were totally preventable and 100% the fault of the game officials and clock operator
* Free-Kick Infraction only occurred because that is where the officials told the K players to stand.
* UNS only occurred because the clock operator distinguished himself by incorrectly starting the game clock on the kick.
Restated, had the officials correctly officiated this play, there would be no fouls on the play, no time would have been run off the clock, and the play would be followed by a subsequent kickoff.
The best thing we can do is learn from this and log all this into our memory banks so on the off chance this "Bucket List Situation" ever presents itself, we can be prepared to properly officiate it. (I personally have been waiting 47 years)
2022-23 NFHS Game Officials Manual - Page 34
Field-Goal attempt by Free Kick after a Fair Catch or Awarded Fair Catch
I. POSITIONS
A. Referee behind upright
B. Umpire behind upright, rule on crossbar (May be a different official in some mechanics)
C. Both Officials determine whether kick was successful.
II. All other game officials mechanics same as kickoff
III. Set the line-to-gain indicator to establish the 10-yard neutral zone.
IV. Remind the Clock Operator the game clock shall not start until the ball touched, other than first touching by K.
V. Play Clock shall be set to 25 and shall start on the RFP from the Referee.
The wording in Blue does not exist at this time but I have on good knowledge it shall be included in the 2024-25 Manual
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I think several of you may have missed my point!
Both fouls related to this play were totally preventable and 100% the fault of the game officials and clock operator
* Free-Kick Infraction only occurred because that is where the officials told the K players to stand.
* UNS only occurred because the clock operator distinguished himself by incorrectly starting the game clock on the kick.
I don't think we're missing your point. Some of us obviously simply don't agree with you. And while we should have done better we did not directly cause any fouls.
* It is not our job to line up the players although we are free to advise them, and probably should advise them, that they are not in a legal formation before the free kick play runs.
* IMHO this is not a USC since the OFFICIAL GAME CLOCK is displaying 0.0 - While we must correct the timing error I do not have USC with the OFFICIAL GAME CLOCK showing 0.0
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6-1-4 says at the time the ball is kicked, 4 K players must be on each side of the ball. The penalty statement says this is a dead ball foul. While we may not be responsible for lining them up correctly, it is certainly our job to blow it dead when the kick is made from an illegal formation. The reality is we should prevent this foul in the first place by getting them into a legal formation before blowing the ball ready.
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6-1-4 says at the time the ball is kicked, 4 K players must be on each side of the ball. The penalty statement says this is a dead ball foul. While we may not be responsible for lining them up correctly, it is certainly our job to blow it dead when the kick is made from an illegal formation. The reality is we should prevent this foul in the first place by getting them into a legal formation before blowing the ball ready.
This is true. the formation should be legal before we hand the ball to the kicker. On the very rare occasions I have had to flag this, the formation became illegal after the RFP when a player or players shifted to the other side just before the ball was kicked. blow it and throw it, dead ball, illegal formation.
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We need to remember,too, that the rationale for this rule was to prevent the kicking team from stacking players for a planned onside kick, not a free kick for a field goal.
We also need to remember that the players just thought they had won when they were celebrating.
IMHO, neither should be ^flag for errors by officials.
Remember, it's better to plan for it and not need it, then to need it and not have a clue. tiphat:
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We need to remember,too, that the rationale for this rule was to prevent the kicking team from stacking players for a planned onside kick, not a free kick for a field goal.
We also need to remember that the players just thought they had won when they were celebrating.
IMHO, neither should be ^flag for errors by officials.
Remember, it's better to plan for it and not need it, then to need it and not have a clue. tiphat:
Thanks Ralph for some simple New England common sense here.
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We need to remember,too, that the rationale for this rule was to prevent the kicking team from stacking players for a planned onside kick, not a free kick for a field goal.
We also need to remember that the players just thought they had won when they were celebrating.
IMHO, neither should be ^flag for errors by officials.
Remember, it's better to plan for it and not need it, then to need it and not have a clue. tiphat:
Yes. Good old common sense is hard to find around here.
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This is true. the formation should be legal before we hand the ball to the kicker. On the very rare occasions I have had to flag this, the formation became illegal after the RFP when a player or players shifted to the other side just before the ball was kicked. blow it and throw it, dead ball, illegal formation.
Saw this on film last week. The “common-tater” ( a former coach) just couldn’t understand how there could be a false start on a kickoff. cRaZy