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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: HeadAlphaGeek on October 31, 2023, 01:35:30 PM
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This happened last night.
A 21 B24 3 seconds left in 4th quarter.
A 4/5 at B20
A lines up for FG.
B blocks FG. Ball is rolling around on ground. B sideline rushes field in excitement. B coach kicks the ball while still on the ground.
A picks up ball and scores TD.
Ruling?
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This happened last night.
A 21 B24 3 seconds left in 4th quarter.
A 4/5 at B20
A lines up for FG.
B blocks FG. Ball is rolling around on ground. B sideline rushes field in excitement. B coach kicks the ball while still on the ground.
A picks up ball and scores TD.
Ruling?
I need to stay out of Fed discussions (although NCAA has the similar dead-ball rule regarding a loose ball touching something inbounds other than a player, official, player’s equipment, or official’s equipment). But, all the more reason to have electrified fences separating the coaches from the field.
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The question we had a group was does the become dead when the coach kicks the ball? 4-2-2e3
Touches, or is touched by, anything inbounds other than a player, substitute, replaced player, a game official, the ground or authorized equipment. In this case the ball will be put in play in accordance with the procedure for an inadvertent whistle as in 4-2-3b.
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IMHO, this would be a case for 1-1-6 (the GOD rule). While 4-2-2e3 is more of the dawg/drunk rule , where a confused dawg or a drunken fan wandering out on the field. I would apply 9-6-4a I-illegal participation -untimed down, and a field goal attempt from 10 yards closer to the pipes. Now @ B's 10, A can try another FG (to tie) or TD to win.
:sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
While the B players & coach entering the field created the IP, the coach (having a flashback to his soccer daze) kicking the ball caused it to be dead. Why ? ??? one might ask ???. Knowing a blocked PAT kick becoming dead may have caused their unfounded excitement. :puke:
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Signal a TD for A and head for the hills. I’m not bailing B out by declaring the ball dead.
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Call TD and heading for the hills is exactly what was done on field. This was not our game but a game in our state. From a study standpoint, we feel the correct call would be to call IP and declare the ball dead. Enforce the IP half the distance and have an untimed down.
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While I understand the tempation of ^good and racing toward the parking lot, IMHO, this ending would cause more controversy than enforcing IP and announcing that the ball became dead with the coach's kick. We have rule support for that....and remember, K had their original kick blocked.
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I’m tellin’ ya - mandatory electrical invisible boundary dog collars on all coaches would solve the problem.
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Where was the ball when A picked it up and ran with it?
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Where was the ball when A picked it up and ran with it?
Now, that IS an important question, if you allow the ball to remain alive. Beyond or behind the NZ?
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About 10 yards behind the LOS.
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A foul by B/R when the ball becomes dead behind the LOS = previous spot.
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About 10 yards behind the LOS.
So the coach beat the A players to the ball which was 10 yds behind the LOS and then kicked it?
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In my humble opinion these block field goal shenanigans will continue to occur as many mistakenly feel the ball is dead when a Field Goal is blocked (since a PAT is).
Some feel the fix is to allow the ball to remain live when a PAT is blocked with either only allowing K to advance, or allowing both K and R able to advance.
Via an NFHS approved experiment, Oregon experimented (for four years) with allowing the ball to remain live allowing either team to advance for 2 points.
Making this change does open up a box of worms as now you have to dispatch fouls which occur after a change of possession on a try.
The NFHS had issues with creating more exceptions AND extending the game during an untimed down as no time comes off the clock so it failed (albeit barely) both times it was submitted.
The proposal has not been resubmitted for roughly 10 years and I would be interested in others thoughts? ^good or ^no
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So the coach beat the A players to the ball which was 10 yds behind the LOS and then kicked it?
B did not make an attempt till the coaches started screaming at them to pick the ball up.
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...
The proposal has not been resubmitted for roughly 10 years and I would be interested in others thoughts? ^good or ^no
I like it being alive at other levels. But for the reasons that you stated, I think it's fine to leave it as is for high school.
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Call TD and heading for the hills is exactly what was done on field. This was not our game but a game in our state. From a study standpoint, we feel the correct call would be to call IP and declare the ball dead. Enforce the IP half the distance and have an untimed down.
OK, I can go along with that. At the point the ball was kicked, we just don’t know what the outcome would have been without the foul.
But let’s change the play just slightly.
While a coach is easily identifiable as a nonplayer, suppose instead it was a uniformed B team member who kicked the ball. We would (likely) have a foul for Illegal Kicking (as well as IP), leave the ball live, and A would still score a TD. But in all the confusion, who’s to know if the B team member was a player, or came off the bench?
Now what?
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OK, I can go along with that. At the point the ball was kicked, we just don’t know what the outcome would have been without the foul.
But let’s change the play just slightly.
While a coach is easily identifiable as a nonplayer, suppose instead it was a uniformed B team member who kicked the ball. We would (likely) have a foul for Illegal Kicking (as well as IP), leave the ball live, and A would still score a TD. But in all the confusion, who’s to know if the B team member was a player, or came off the bench?
Now what?
We would be sure of the IK but not the IP. The LOS was R's 20...the IK would bring the ball to R's 10. IP would also bring the ball to R's 10.Untimed down
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We would be sure of the IK but not the IP. The LOS was R's 20...the IK would bring the ball to R's 10. IP would also bring the ball to R's 10.Untimed down
Right, but if the IK was by a player and not a coach, the ball would remain live, and in either case (IK or IP), A would obviously decline the penalty and keep the score. Or, because it was a live ball foul and no change of team possession, A could keep the score and the penalty.
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Here is the play.
https://x.com/ndosports/status/1718842575358980334?s=20
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Here is the play.
https://x.com/ndosports/status/1718842575358980334?s=20
That ball lay on the ground motionless for quite a while. Sans the coach kicking it, I think it probably should have been declared dead. Regardless, A should not get a cheap TD from this. It really should've be dead when the coach kicked it.
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Here is the play.
https://x.com/ndosports/status/1718842575358980334?s=20
Read the comments...Good Grief! This is the ending to the 9th grade's perfect season. NINTH GRADE!!!! And some clown saying that he was a 7A official and there was roughing the kicker that should have been called? WHAT? #morons pi1eOn hEaDbAnG
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That ball lay on the ground motionless for quite a while. Sans the coach kicking it, I think it probably should have been declared dead. Regardless, A should not get a cheap TD from this. It really should've be dead when the coach kicked it.
Agreed. #1. When the coach kicked it the ball was immediately dead by rule and if enforced it would be treated under IW rules.
#2. Regardless of #1, the ball sat motionless for a long time after the "kick" and again by rule would also be dead as no one was attempting to recover and in fact no one was even near the ball for an extended period.
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#2. Regardless of #1, the ball sat motionless for a long time after the "kick" and again by rule would also be dead as no one was attempting to recover and in fact no one was even near the ball for an extended period.
WHAT? The ball literally was never motionless before coach kicked it. It was rolling and bouncing around on the field and he kicked it while it was still bouncing, in fact I'm not sure it wasn't airborn when he did. That is absolutely 100% still a live ball until he kicks it.
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WHAT? The ball literally was never motionless before coach kicked it. It was rolling and bouncing around on the field and he kicked it while it was still bouncing, in fact I'm not sure it wasn't airborn when he did. That is absolutely 100% still a live ball until he kicks it.
The "kick" was referring to the coaches "kick", and there is no question that after that "kick" the ball became dead by rule for at least two reasons.
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WHAT? The ball literally was never motionless before coach kicked it. It was rolling and bouncing around on the field and he kicked it while it was still bouncing, in fact I'm not sure it wasn't airborn when he did. That is absolutely 100% still a live ball until he kicks it.
Yeah, that’s not what I was talking about. I was talking about after he kicked it and before K picked it up. Even if it wasn’t dead by rule when the coach kicked it (which it was, but wasn’t called) it should have still been declared dead after laying motionless with no player from either team trying to recover it.
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Yeah, that’s not what I was talking about. I was talking about after he kicked it and before K picked it up. Even if it wasn’t dead by rule when the coach kicked it (which it was, but wasn’t called) it should have still been declared dead after laying motionless with no player from either team trying to recover it.
Ahhh, that I'd agree with.
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IMHO, having the entire R team out on the field = confusion = dead ball by applying 1-1-6 = either IP or Ik(you can't have IK with a dead ball) gives the ball to K with an untimed down @ R's 10. I agree with Calhoun, don't give K a cheap TD abid all the confusion just shut the play down and let K earn the results under an untimed down. When faced with cluster fudge :!# :o ::) like this, you best route is to shut the play down and sort it out ^talk ^talk yEs:
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Having now seen the play: IP on R, penalize half the distance and have an untimed down.
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Having now seen the play: IP on R, penalize half the distance and have an untimed down.
I agree.
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Just to throw another wrench in things, the R signals no good prior to the kick and probably simultaneous to the defense coming onto the field. In NCAA, a signal is as good as a whistle and would be treated as an IW, is this the same in NFHS? If so, I think it would be no foul, IW, replay the down.
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Just to throw another wrench in things, the R signals no good prior to the kick and probably simultaneous to the defense coming onto the field. In NCAA, a signal is as good as a whistle and would be treated as an IW, is this the same in NFHS? If so, I think it would be no foul, IW, replay the down.
The FED doesn't have such a rule, but it's a great point.
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IMHO - These travesty's shall continue to occur until the rules on the TRY are tweaked to (at least) leave a blocked kick to remain live for K to advance and score. The ball would remain live until it becomes dead by rule or R gains possession.
This is a half-step fix as allowing R to score on a TRY is an entire differing subject
Allowing R to score will get Ralph grumbling, mumbling, stumbling, and throwing his mouse at his computer.
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IMHO - These travesty's shall continue to occur until the rules on the TRY are tweaked to (at least) leave a blocked kick to remain live for K to advance and score. The ball would remain live until it becomes dead by rule or R gains possession.
This is a half-step fix as allowing R to score on a TRY is an entire differing subject
Allowing R to score will get Ralph grumbling, mumbling, stumbling, and throwing his mouse at his computer.
The only reason I think it's dead on a try is because R cannot advance the kick, so K should not be able to either.
I think changing this to be similar to FGs is a good compromise to get rid of inadvertent whistles. Just let K be able to advance their blocked kick. This keeps it consistent for players too.
Do not let B score, as that opens up a huge can of worms for penalty enforcement. I know it might be weird to ask Team B to block the kick and recover the ball to end the down, but they'd have to do that on field goals too.