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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: NVFOA_Ump on October 19, 2024, 07:49:27 AM
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K attempts an on-side kick but the ball is headed directly OB well before it goes 10 yards and R players back away to let the ball go OB. On the last bounce at the sideline the ball takes a right turn and is now bouncing just inbounds at the R49 yard line. A K player grabs the ball on the run and immediately after he first touches the ball his foot comes down on the sideline at the R47 yard line. What do we have?
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If K had possession of the ball before hitting the sidelings, 'tis his ball @ R49. If R was still juggling the ball as he touched the sidlines, R's ball @R49.
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If K had possession of the ball before hitting the sidelings, 'tis his ball @ R49. If R was still juggling the ball as he touched the sidlines, R's ball @R49.
So this is another one of those judgment calls that depends on when we judge that K actually has secured possession, before or after he steps OB? In either case this cannot be a foul for free kick OB unless we judge that K's first touch was after he stepped OB?
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If K had the ball in his hands with neither foot on the ground, and his next foot landed out of bounds, then he did not possess the ball in the field of play. The kick would be considered out of bounds, R's ball at the K48 (OOB spot + 5... or any of the other myriad options).
If he had possession of the ball in his hands with a foot down in bounds, and the next step was out of bounds, then it's K's ball at the R47.
Imagine it was a forward pass at the sideline and how you would rule possession in that scenario.
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If K had the ball in his hands with neither foot on the ground, and his next foot landed out of bounds, then he did not possess the ball in the field of play. The kick would be considered out of bounds, R's ball at the K48 (OOB spot + 5... or any of the other myriad options).
But he has touched a live ball in the field of play and caused it to be OB by his action. Isn't this more comparable to 1st touching vs a pass play?
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But he has touched a live ball in the field of play and caused it to be OB by his action. Isn't this more comparable to 1st touching vs a pass play?
Good morning Ump -- just throwing this in the discussion: If he's in the field of play, wouldn't he be considered an inbounds player until such time that his foot touches OOB? (like an airborne player who jumped from inbounds). If so then, he's inbounds when he touches the ball, but doesn't complete the recovery because he then lands OOB. In this case, I would think it's simply R's ball at the OOB spot, no foul for KOB.
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Good morning Ump -- just throwing this in the discussion: If he's in the field of play, wouldn't he be considered an inbounds player until such time that his foot touches OOB? (like an airborne player who jumped from inbounds). If so then, he's inbounds when he touches the ball, but doesn't complete the recovery because he then lands OOB. In this case, I would think it's simply R's ball at the OOB spot, no foul for KOB.
But isn't it still a kick, untouched by R, that went OOB? How is that not KOB?
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Good morning Ump -- just throwing this in the discussion: If he's in the field of play, wouldn't he be considered an inbounds player until such time that his foot touches OOB? (like an airborne player who jumped from inbounds). If so then, he's inbounds when he touches the ball, but doesn't complete the recovery because he then lands OOB. In this case, I would think it's simply R's ball at the OOB spot, no foul for KOB.
The KOB rule only excuses K if the kick is touched inbounds by R. Since there's no R player nearby, it's a foul for KOB.
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The KOB rule only excuses K if the kick is touched inbounds by R. Since there's no R player nearby, it's a foul for KOB.
Specific rule and/or case book reference?
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But isn't it still a kick, untouched by R, that went OOB? How is that not KOB?
Yep, my bad. Moron (me)
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Specific rule and/or case book reference?
5-1-5a.
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K attempts an on-side kick but the ball is headed directly OB well before it goes 10 yards and R players back away to let the ball go OB. On the last bounce at the sideline the ball takes a right turn and is now bouncing just inbounds at the R49 yard line. A K player grabs the ball on the run and immediately after he first touches the ball his foot comes down on the sideline at the R47 yard line. What do we have?
Just an FYI, I have read all the comments above, but am confused about what actually takes place. Specifically, Where is the first touching? If the ball is touched by K at the R47, (or even at the R49), it's gone the required 10yds, and has touched the ground, so K is free to touch or recover? If that's true, we would never have "first touching" in this scenario. What we would have if K "grabs the ball on the run" and his foot comes down on the sideline is a Free Kick out of bounds, with the appropriate options and/or penalty enforced. If by chance his foot came down inbounds, it would be K ball at that spot. I just don't see first touching in play here.
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5-1-5a addresses what happens if R touches the ball, so where in the rules is the statement that clarifies what happens if K touches the ball on a grounded free kick in the field of play before the ball then goes OB?
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ON MY SOAPBOX... tiphat:
In 2000, we changed the KOB rule to current. It was my proposal and the proposer needs to supply a lobster crate (ole'Mainer saying) of new cases. The former rule read foul if last touched by K. I felt this was unfair as the original kick could be muffed by several at midfield only to go OOB last touched by K. I submitted cases and illustrations stating if the ball was still in the field of play when touched by OOB R, it merely becomes R's ball at the spot the ball became dead by rule.
That's been my interpretation since and have been lobbying for that explaination to return to the case book. Watching a NFL player stepping on the sideline and touching the kick to draw a flag on K doesn't seem right.
:sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:(7-MAN CREW)
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5-1-5a addresses what happens if R touches the ball, so where in the rules is the statement that clarifies what happens if K touches the ball on a grounded free kick in the field of play before the ball then goes OB?
Try 6-1-9. A free kick shall not be kicked out of bounds untouched by R.
Doesn't say anything about being touched by K because it doesn't matter. If K kicks it and R never touches it, even if K touches it and it goes out of bounds, we have a flag for a free kick out of bounds. Of course, if it's touched by K before it goes 10 yards, and then goes out of bounds, then we have options. If it's grounded, we have a bag for first touching, and R can either take the ball at the first touching spot, or they can have the penalty for the free kick out of bounds enforced.
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Specific rule and/or case book reference?
6-1-9, where it defines the penalty for KOB.