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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: Ted T on November 08, 2024, 01:52:35 PM
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1st and 10 for A from the B's 40 yd line. Runner A2 breaks free and proceeds down the sideline for an apparent score. However, thinking he was in the end zone, he dropped the ball at B's 1 yard line. The ball then rolls into the middle of the end zone. B22, who is 5 yards deep in the end zone, thinks that it is an A score, picks up the ball and flips it ahead toward the LJ who is behind the goal line pylon. The heads-up LJ has not signaled touchdown nor blown his whistle and allows the now out of bounds ball to bounce past him. What's the result of this play?
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Illegal Forward Pass by B. This is a spot foul and since the flag is in the EZ this will result in a safety. 2 points for A with the free kick to follow from the 20-yard line. Rule 7-5-2 and 7-5-3
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Can you give me rule reference? The closest thing I'm finding in the Case Book (10.3.3 situation A; pg 103) is a foul (clipping) after a change of possession where B, after an interception, fouls behind the runner in A's end zone. The ruling there calls for the enforcement spot at the end of the run.
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Not to be pedantic, but are you sure this is an (illegal) forward pass? As described, very technically he pitched (threw) it forward, from 5 yards deep to the official behind the GL pylon (assuming when he let it bounce past him, it was out the side of the EZ, and not at the 1 or 2)?
What I'm getting at (thinking out loud here), let's assume that A runs a play from the one yard line. Snapped to the QB, who is 5 yards deep in the EZ, who then throws the ball to A22, who is 1) 2 yards in the EZ, or 2) 6 yards in the EZ. In both cases, A22 throws a long pass to A87 who catches it at the A35. 2 is definitely legal; but is scenario 1 a legal or illegal forward pass?
I've always assumed that anything behind the GL was treated as still behind the GL. That may not necessarily be true, the more I think about it.
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In the scenario I presented its B that is tossing the ball. If A throws an illegal pass from their own end zone, then it’s definitely a safety.
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In the scenario I presented its B that is tossing the ball. If A throws an illegal pass from their own end zone, then it’s definitely a safety.
Correct, it just got me thinking about IFP in general... sorry, not trying to threadjack.
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Not to be pedantic, but are you sure this is an (illegal) forward pass? As described, very technically he pitched (threw) it forward, from 5 yards deep to the official behind the GL pylon (assuming when he let it bounce past him, it was out the side of the EZ, and not at the 1 or 2)?
What I'm getting at (thinking out loud here), let's assume that A runs a play from the one yard line. Snapped to the QB, who is 5 yards deep in the EZ, who then throws the ball to A22, who is 1) 2 yards in the EZ, or 2) 6 yards in the EZ. In both cases, A22 throws a long pass to A87 who catches it at the A35. 2 is definitely legal; but is scenario 1 a legal or illegal forward pass?
I've always assumed that anything behind the GL was treated as still behind the GL. That may not necessarily be true, the more I think about it.
The rule references are in my original post. B "pitching" the ball forward by definition is still a forward pass. NFHS rules only deal with forward or backward passes, it's one or the other. This one is the very first one listed in Table 7-5 (1.a.)
1. It's an Illegal Forward Pass since B cannot throw a legal forward pass
2. The spot of the foul is "end of the run"
3. That's in B's own EZ
4. Enforcement results in a safety
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In the scenario I presented its B that is tossing the ball. If A throws an illegal pass from their own end zone, then it’s definitely a safety.
To be technically correct, either team can throw an illegal forward pass because either team can be the "team in possession." In this case, the team in possession is B. B can certainly throw an illegal forward pass from their own end zone. NVFOA is correct.
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One could look at this two ways.....
WALKING RULE BOOK WAITING TO HAPPEN : tR:oLl The LJ ^flag claps his hands above his head and yells saftey.
cOMMON SENSE CHARLIE : "B22'S fORWARD PROGRESS STOPPED WHEN HE GAINED POSSESSION OF THE BALL. THEREFORE, THE BALL BECAME DEAD. IT IS A tiphat:TOUCHBACK
:sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
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One could look at this two ways.....
WALKING RULE BOOK WAITING TO HAPPEN : tR:oLl The LJ ^flag claps his hands above his head and yells saftey.
cOMMON SENSE CHARLIE : "B22'S fORWARD PROGRESS STOPPED WHEN HE GAINED POSSESSION OF THE BALL. THEREFORE, THE BALL BECAME DEAD. IT IS A tiphat: TOUCHBACK
:sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
But question for Common Sense Charlie, doesn't an opponent have to be involved to have a forward progress call? ;D
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I am with Ralph on this one. Play is over when recovered. Makes no attempt to advance the ball. Forward pass is to an official, not a Team B player. Kid got the ball and treated it as the firm was over. Technically you can call the foul. Common sense officiating is play is dead when he recovers the ball and makes no attempt to advance.
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A touchback - That's the way I'm calling it. If he were throwing it to another B player that would be different. Basically, he's giving up on the play and the right to advance the ball (although he certainly didn't think he could advance the ball.) Being overly technical is likely to lead to far more problems.
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But question for Common Sense Charlie, doesn't an opponent have to be involved to have a forward progress call? ;D
Perhaps Charlie could have said ; "B22 gained possession of the ball AND ATTEMPTED NO PROGRESS. Ball is dead and touchback. tiphat:
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Our 2024 NFHS Football Rules Book holds 80 pages (13-93) of written rules. However, there are three unwritten ones that you won't find in any rules book that are very iimportant to working a good game.....
SAFELY,
FAIRLY,
SMOOTHLY,
In my 30+ years on the NFHS Football Rules Committee, I've had many discussions with both officials and coaches. Common sense Charlie's choice would satisfy the FAIRLY and SMOOTLY part. Most coaches and officials I've worked with would agree.
tiphat:
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I'll agree with Ralph in principle here but depending on the score and time of the game I would suggest that we be careful how we handle this. We know what we have by rule, how we use common sense and judgment are good things, but our supervisors have hi-def video of every play. ;D
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I'll agree with Ralph in principle here but depending on the score and time of the game I would suggest that we be careful how we handle this. We know what we have by rule, how we use common sense and judgment are good things, but our supervisors have hi-def video of every play. ;D
I’d be surprised if there were many supervisors who would want a foul called on this play.
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This would never happen if A's coach would have coached the player better...