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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: bmem66 on November 10, 2024, 04:00:22 PM
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Is there any hard fast rule about how the clock status should be after a delay of game on the offense? For example, the clock is running early in the first quarter and the offense takes a delay of game, should the play clock be started on the ready or on the snap? Or, late in the game, the offense of team is trying to run the clock out and takes a delay of game with the clock running, do we invoke consume/conserve in the situation?
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Is there any hard fast rule about how the clock status should be after a delay of game on the offense? For example, the clock is running early in the first quarter and the offense takes a delay of game, should the play clock be started on the ready or on the snap? Or, late in the game, the offense of team is trying to run the clock out and takes a delay of game with the clock running, do we invoke consume/conserve in the situation?
NFHS is easy. Always on the snap.
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3-4-3(i): The game clock shall start with the snap ... if the game clock was stopped because: the penalty for a delay of game foul is accepted.
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should the play clock be started on the ready or on the snap?
The play clock will always start on the ready.
Did you mean play clock or game clock?
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NFHS is easy. Always on the snap.
Due to my advancing age, I often “forget” this when the game is out of hand.
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When we are in the running time mercy-rule situation, we also 'forget' this part of the DOG rule. 8]
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When we are in the running time mercy-rule situation, we also 'forget' this part of the DOG rule. 8]
Where I am, when we hit mercy rule timing, the play clocks also seem to mysteriously malfunction at the same time. Calling a DOG foul with a running clock will earn you death stares from the rest of the crew.
Granted, we also don't stop the running clock for penalties (only SIT, not TIPS... I don't know why, it just is), so we might have to take 3 minutes to discuss and make sure it's enforced correctly as well, depending how out of hand things are.
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A's Coach, a Yale grad, with all his timeouts gone and a dire need to stop the clock; asks for a timeout for an discussion of the ref's previous call knowing he'll be charge with a DOG with clock starting at the snap (3-43i). The referee ,a Harvard grad, reminds his Yale buddy of 3-4-6 and cranks 'er after the markoff.
The A coach's question to R was : "Our prom queen's divorced mom just winked at me >:D, may I forgo the handshake line 8]"
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We had a running clock in our last game. With subs on the field, after taking a knee on 3rd down there were 56 seconds on the game clock when the visible play clock started. A lined up in a punt formation and deliberately took a DOG. After we walked off the 5 yards they wanted us to wind the clock.
Nope, not in Ohio.
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Along this line, here's a situation to consider:
K 4/7 @ R32. 4th quarter. Team K leads by 5 points. The game clock is running. Team K is in scrimmage kick formation. They purposefully allow the play clock to expire in order to increase their odds of being able to drop the punt inside the 10 yard line. The game clock is stopped at 2:21. Coach R wants to decline the penalty for delay of game because he knows what they were trying to do. So it will still be K 4/7 @ R32.
What would you do as to Snap or Ready?
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Along this line, here's a situation to consider:
K 4/7 @ R32. 4th quarter. Team K leads by 5 points. The game clock is running. Team K is in scrimmage kick formation. They purposefully allow the play clock to expire in order to increase their odds of being able to drop the punt inside the 10 yard line. The game clock is stopped at 2:21. Coach R wants to decline the penalty for delay of game because he knows what they were trying to do. So it will still be K 4/7 @ R32.
What would you do as to Snap or Ready?
Delay of game is always on the snap in NFHS. No choice here about clock status. Even in NCAA, it would still be on the snap, because DOG from a scrimmage kick formation is on the snap.
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R can’t decline the penalty, but they can decline the yardage mark off (FF X-1). Clock starts on the snap.
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R can’t decline the penalty, but they can decline the yardage mark off (FF X-1). Clock starts on the snap.
Semantics I'll admit, but R can most certainly decline the penalty. It's the foul that they cannot decline. The FOUL is Delay Of Game, the PENALTY is 5 yards.
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R can’t decline the penalty, but they can decline the yardage mark off (FF X-1). Clock starts on the snap.
Any penalty can be declined.
The clock starts on the snap only if the DOG is accepted. 3-4-3-i.
They can accept the penalty and decline the yardage walk off, 10-1-1. This is what the coach will want to do. We need to make sure we know the rule and that it gets explained correctly to the coach.
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Any penalty can be declined.
They can accept the penalty and decline the yardage walk off, 10-1-1.
Is that what 10-1-1 really says???
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A dead ball foul can always be declined, per 10-1-2 : "When a foul occurs during a dead ball....The designated representative may accept or DELCINE the penalty."
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Is that what 10-1-1 really says???
Yes.
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Yes.
You might want to read the rule again.
"The distance penalty for any foul may be declined" is the phrase used in 10-1-1 and FF X-1. You cannot accept the penalty and decline the yardage, because the yardage *is* the penalty.
ETA -- 3-4-7 allows for the offended team to have the clock start on the snap after any *foul* (under 2 minutes left in the half), but not accepted penalty. In this case, they can decline the penalty and the yardage but still hold the clock to the snap. However, outside of the last two minutes of the half, the clock would start on the ready if the DOG penalty is declined.
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Reddings - page 91 - play #27 says in a situation like this it’s possible to decline the yardage but still accept the penalty so that the clock will start on the Snap
And like ncwngman says, if this occurs under two minutes, 3-4-7 would allow Coach R to decline the penalty and retain the option to have it started on the Snap
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Reddings - page 91 - play #27 says in a situation like this it’s possible to decline the yardage but still accept the penalty so that the clock will start on the Snap
And like ncwngman says, if this occurs under two minutes, 3-4-7 would allow Coach R to decline the penalty and retain the option to have it started on the Snap
We can agree on 3-4-7 but the rule here is 100% clear (a rarity for NFHS) in that the penalty enforcement can be declined and that penalty enforcement in this case is 5 yards. If you decline the yardage, you in fact are declining the penalty. That was the original rational for adding 3-4-7 to begin with.
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We can agree on 3-4-7 but the rule here is 100% clear (a rarity for NFHS) in that the penalty enforcement can be declined and that penalty enforcement in this case is 5 yards. If you decline the yardage, you in fact are declining the penalty. That was the original rational for adding 3-4-7 to begin with.
If you approach it that way, would you consider using 3-4-6 and start it on the snap? Otherwise, Team K would run another 24 seconds off the game clock before the snap and get an advantage because of having fouled. R trails and time is critical for them.
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You might want to read the rule again.
"The distance penalty for any foul may be declined" is the phrase used in 10-1-1 and FF X-1. You cannot accept the penalty and decline the yardage, because the yardage *is* the penalty.
You might want to read Case Book 10.1.1 Situation B where it gives an example of when A can accept a penalty and decline the yardage.
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You might want to read Case Book 10.1.1 Situation B where it gives an example of when A can accept a penalty and decline the yardage.
So we get to the much repeated guidance to be very careful about expanding the application for a NFHS Case Book Play to other situations when the Case Book play at reference is very specific to a unique play in the game. Here, a try, which in fact may be the most unique play in our game, is the reference play. The entire Rule Book hinges on Rule 2 definitions, specifically 2-16 in this case, and make clear 2 things that are the entire basis for penalty enforcement. A foul is the specific act that is illegal under the rules, and a penalty is the statement of exactly what recourse the offended team has if they in fact wish to "penalize" the offended team. The penalty may be declined and the result of the play may therefore stand. I can find no other reference in the Rule Book, Case Book, the Redding Guide, or other instructional material that would make the Case Book 10.1.1 Situation B globally applicable to all fouls and all penalty enforcements. IMHO if that was to be the case that statement should/would be found in the Rule Book at the very beginning of Rule 10. If anyone can provide the reference contained in the actual Rule Book or explicit guidance from NFHS on this subject it would be greatly appreciated.
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I'm left-handed and sometimes get things bass-ackwards, but it seems to me that 10-1-1 : "....The distance penalty for any foul may be declined." And Fundamental X-1 :"The distance penalty for any foul may be declined" gives us allowance to accept the penalty sans yardage. Over the years I've had several encroachment fouls by R on PATs with K not wanting to readjust the holder's spot.
I've had many screwups over the years , but i don't believe thatis one. :o ::) I also don't believe that the Patriots will lose today. tiphat: (It's a bye-week)
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In addition to PATs, I’ve also had teams refuse the yardage when the opponent takes an intentional DOG to give their punter more room.
It doesn’t make sense to force a team to accept a penalty result that gives the fouling team a (perceived) advantage.
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In addition to PATs, I’ve also had teams refuse the yardage when the opponent takes an intentional DOG to give their punter more room.
It doesn’t make sense to force a team to accept a penalty result that gives the fouling team a (perceived) advantage.
But isn't the decision to "refuse the yardage" when a team takes a perceived intentional DOG, simply by rule declining the penalty? That's not what we're talking about here. If it's the intent of the NFHS rules masters to treat the "yardage penalty" as a separate entity to any other part of the penalty statement doesn't that belong in Rule 10 right at the beginning of penalty enforcement? Not buried in a single line in the Case Book tied to the single most unique play in the game? Oh, my bad, we know that Rule 10 is badly bungled and is being "fixed" virtually year. ??? And by the way, we already know of at least one specific instance where this does not hold true (See 3.4.3.i).
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In addition to PATs, I’ve also had teams refuse the yardage when the opponent takes an intentional DOG to give their punter more room.
It doesn’t make sense to force a team to accept a penalty result that gives the fouling team a (perceived) advantage.
Both of these situations involve dead ball fouls. To truly answer the question, we need a slightly different scenario:
4th and goal from the 3, 1 second on the (stopped) clock, K is lined up for a game winning field goal. K1 shanks the kick wide left, but R55 runs into the kicker's kicking leg (5 yard foul).
Do you let K accept the penalty to replay the down without accepting the yardage to move the ball to the 1.5?
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Both of these situations involve dead ball fouls. To truly answer the question, we need a slightly different scenario:
4th and goal from the 3, 1 second on the (stopped) clock, K is lined up for a game winning field goal. K1 shanks the kick wide left, but R55 runs into the kicker's kicking leg (5 yard foul).
Do you let K accept the penalty to replay the down without accepting the yardage to move the ball to the 1.5?
In a word, YES!
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In a word, YES!
Case 10.1.1B covers live ball fouls.
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Do you let K accept the penalty to replay the down without accepting the yardage to move the ball to the 1.5?
Sure.