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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: Ralph Damren on January 01, 2025, 02:18:00 PM
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Happy new year to all and, as always, here are the rule change proposals. I value your opinions highly and will bring your suggestions to our national meeting on January 12-14. Thank you in advance for your response :
(1) Can't attach stuff to mouthguard. 14-0
(2) Unaltered pants must cover knees. 13-2
(3) Sweatbands allowed anywhere. 14-1
(4) No high-tech stuff allowed on players in the game. 13-1
(5) Eyeshade can have have logo or trademark. 12-0
(6) Playcards can be worn on belt. 13-2
(7) RTP on a potential passer in a passing posture . 4-11
(8) W/I 3:00 of half for choice of clock on snap for penalty. 5-9
(9) Injured player can return if qtr. ends. 8-7
(10) 12 in game = IS. 11-4
(11) Any whistle = IW. 1-12
(12) Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble.8-6
(13) Inbounds FK dead by touch of OOB R = no foul R's ball there. 13-2
(14) R can't have player over snapper when in SKF. 4-10
(15) IG = spot of foul + LOD, no yardage. 5-9
(16) QB over LOS can't come back and forward pass. 8-7
(17) DPI = 15+AFD, OPI = 10 yards. 5-10
(18)Hurdle OK if tackle is below waist. 0-13
(19) Grabing helmet =15, no more 5 yd. FM. 7-8
(20) USC during TD = live ball foul from spot. 5-8
(21) FULL REWRITE OF IP ON OOB. 10-4
(22) USC on coach if player not with proper equipment. 3-10
:sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
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My thoughts. I usually am against rule changes unless there's a clear and present need, which there rarely is. That said, I'm surprised how many on your list I don't have a problem with.
(1) Can't attach stuff to mouthguard. - OK
(2) Unaltered pants must cover knees. -- YES! With this being a POE. Otherwise NFHS might as well surrender in this battle.
(3) Sweatbands allowed anywhere. - OK. Never have consider these a safety issue.
(4) No high-tech stuff allowed on players in the game. - YES, with states allowed to make exceptions for hearing- or vision-impaired players.
(5) Eyeshade can have have logo or trademark. -YES.
(6) Playcards can be worn on belt. - OK
(7) RTP on a potential passer in a passing posture . -NO. UNR is always available in this situation.
(8) W/I 3:00 of half for choice of clock on snap for penalty. -NO. 2 is fine.
(9) Injured player can return if qtr. ends. - NO.
(10) 12 in game = IS. - NO. Rule in place is fine. Not our job to make coaches understand something they can't seem to understand.
(11) Any whistle = IW. - NO.
(12) Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble. - NO. Has never happened intentionally in my 20 years of officiating. Rule in search of a problem in HS, and an example of a "let's adopt the NCAA rule 'cause it's cool."
(13) Inbounds FK dead by touch of OOB R = no foul R's ball there. - YES. Remove us having to determine if it's "intentional."
(14) R can't have player over snapper when in SKF. - YES.
(15) IG = spot of foul + LOD, no yardage. - NO. Current enforcement is fine.
(16) QB over LOS can't come back and forward pass. - NO.
(17) DPI = 15+AFD, OPI = 10 yards. - NO. Current enforcement is balanced and fair.
(18)Hurdle OK if tackle is below waist. - NO. Unsafe.
(19) Grabing helmet =15, no more 5 yd. FM. - NO. Flexibility of having 5 yd in our pocket useful.
(20) USC during TD = live ball foul from spot. - NO.
(21) FULL REWRITE OF IP ON OOB. - Not opposed to this, but past history indicates it will take 3 years of changes and editorial corrections to get it right.
(22) USC on coach if player not with proper equipment. - As much as I want to say yes to this, I'm gonna go no.
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(1) Can't attach stuff to mouthguard. OK
(2) Unaltered pants must cover knees. Yes
(3) Sweatbands allowed anywhere. OK
(4) No high-tech stuff allowed on players in the game. OK, but define "high-tech".
(5) Eyeshade can have have logo or trademark. OK
(6) Playcards can be worn on belt. OK
(7) RTP on a potential passer in a passing posture . NO
(8) W/I 3:00 of half for choice of clock on snap for penalty. OK
(9) Injured player can return if qtr. ends. OK
(10) 12 in game = IS. OK
(11) Any whistle = IW. ???? Example needed.
(12) Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble. OK, on 4th down.
(13) Inbounds FK dead by touch of OOB R = no foul R's ball there. YES
(14) R can't have player over snapper when in SKF. OK
(15) IG = spot of foul + LOD, no yardage. OK
(16) QB over LOS can't come back and forward pass. OK
(17) DPI = 15+AFD, OPI = 10 yards. OK
(18)Hurdle OK if tackle is below waist. OK
(19) Grabing helmet =15, no more 5 yd. FM. OK
(20) USC during TD = live ball foul from spot. NO
(21) FULL REWRITE OF IP ON OOB. OK
(22) USC on coach if player not with proper equipment. YES
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Ralph:
When is the Rules Committee scheduled to meet?
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Ralph:
When is the Rules Committee scheduled to meet?
January 12 (Sunday) to January 14 (Tuesday).
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For any rule set, how about requiring all players to have helmet comms, and all coaches - all coaches - are then positioned in the pressbox, with windows closed? 🤔
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Ralph, what is #11 (Any whistle = IW) about? Is this for a whistle from off the field that can be heard on the field?
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22 rules proposals.... One year leaving it pretty much alone and so everyone wants all their not needed changes pushed to make up for it? There are some that are OK here, but honestly none of these are really needed.
(1) Can't attach stuff to mouthguard. - OK Whatever but not a big deal.
(2) Unaltered pants must cover knees. -- That's already the rule isn't it?
(3) Sweatbands allowed anywhere. - OK Whatever not a big deal
(4) No high-tech stuff allowed on players in the game. - what does this even mean?
(5) Eyeshade can have have logo or trademark. - Big deal.
(6) Playcards can be worn on belt. - Whatever
(7) RTP on a potential passer in a passing posture . - NO.
(8) W/I 3:00 of half for choice of clock on snap for penalty. -NO. 2 is fine.
(9) Injured player can return if qtr. ends. - Lets rush the injured kid in as soon as possible because one play in a high school is that important....
(10) 12 in game = IS. - NO.
(11) Any whistle = IW. - HUH? So a ready for play is IW? We just aren't going to have whistles at all?
(12) Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble. - NO. Who's doing this?
(13) Inbounds FK dead by touch of OOB R = no foul R's ball there. - Ya I guess. Never seen it but refs sure talk about it a lot.
(14) R can't have player over snapper when in SKF. - Not needed already protect the snapper who cares if he stands there?
(15) IG = spot of foul + LOD, no yardage. - NO. Current enforcement is fine.
(16) QB over LOS can't come back and forward pass. - OK.
(17) DPI = 15+AFD, OPI = 10 yards. - No. still trying to fix a screw up from 15 years ago... Only change I'd support would be put auto first back on DPI.
(18)Hurdle OK if tackle is below waist. - Nothing wrong with current rule.
(19) Grabbing helmet =15, no more 5 yd. FM. - grabbing helmet? Not even an opening? And the 5 yard is an OK option.
(20) USC during TD = live ball foul from spot. - I like this one but its not been a problem I've ever had. All for punishing USC to the max.
(21) FULL REWRITE OF IP ON OOB. - Pretty hard to support or not without knowing what it would be and how bad NFHS would screw it up!
(22) USC on coach if player not with proper equipment. - You mean he isn't properly equipped or he isn't wearing it properly? If coach says they are all properly equipped in pregame and they aren't I'm already banging him. Not that I've ever seen it.
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Ralph, what is #11 (Any whistle = IW) about? Is this for a whistle from off the field that can be heard on the field?
Bandleader, dawg trainer, drunk fan and the like, blows a whistle that can be heard on the field would shut the play down and be treated as IW.
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Bandleader, dawg trainer, drunk fan and the like, blows a whistle that can be heard on the field would shut the play down and be treated as IW.
I can see a strong possibility for shenanigans if this is passed.
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(1) Can't attach stuff to mouthguard.
Ok?
(2) Unaltered pants must cover knees.
Isn't this the current rule? I'm for less uniform strictness, not more.
(3) Sweatbands allowed anywhere.
Yes.
(4) No high-tech stuff allowed on players in the game.
Yes.
(5) Eyeshade can have have logo or trademark.
Yes. No need to police this unless it's vulgar.
(6) Playcards can be worn on belt.
Yes!
(7) RTP on a potential passer in a passing posture .
Might need clarification. What exactly would constitute roughing in this scenario?
(8) W/I 3:00 of half for choice of clock on snap for penalty.
I'm fine with either.
(9) Injured player can return if qtr. ends.
Yes.
(10) 12 in game = IS.
Yes.
(11) Any whistle = IW.
Can you clarify?
(12) Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble.
I don't feel strongly either way. Sounds like a change "because college".
(13) Inbounds FK dead by touch of OOB R = no foul R's ball there.
I think that's what the intent has been. No foul unless the ball is on or over OOB territory.
(14) R can't have player over snapper when in SKF.
No. The current roughing the snapper rule is sufficient. I see no point in this rule in the college game either. One more thing for us to mess up.
(15) IG = spot of foul + LOD, no yardage.
No. Just creates confusion with IFP enforcement for no reason. Another "because college" change.
(16) QB over LOS can't come back and forward pass.
Yes.
(17) DPI = 15+AFD, OPI = 10 yards.
Ok?
(18)Hurdle OK if tackle is below waist.
No. I'm having trouble viusalising this exception too.
(19) Grabing helmet =15, no more 5 yd. FM.
YES
(20) USC during TD = live ball foul from spot.
NO
(21) FULL REWRITE OF IP ON OOB.
Yes! If anyone wants to see it...
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m03iN9klsQptpWvsIrUClDJXMfIxKxLv/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=115846223743828963000&rtpof=true&sd=true
(22) USC on coach if player not with proper equipment.
No
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For what it's worth, here's my current leanings......
1-6 : Removes us from being the fashion police. 'High-tech stuff' refers to helmet radios and such.= Strong YES.
#7 : RTP = potential passer in a passing posture. =Leaning NO, as it sounds like you can't sack the QB if he is set to pass. There is a game of two-hand touch, but it's not our game.
#8 : Last 3 minutes of half, ^flag choice of clock on snap. = Strong NO, 2 min. works fine.
#9 : Injured player can return if qtr. ends. = ??? Unsure ???
#10 : 12 in game is IS = Strong YES
#11 : Any whistle is IW. = Strong NO
#12 : Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble. Leaning YES, If remove our job of intent on 4th down and not allow A to gain yardage by fumbling.
#13 : FK dead by touching OOB R, no foul R's ball there. = Solid YES :thumbup
#14 : R can't have player over snapper during SKF. = Leaning NO, player over snapper may be there to attempt block of FG/PAT.
#15 : IG = spot of foul & LOD only. = Strong NO, benefits A, NCAA & NFL needs to sell tickets, NFHS doesn't.
#16 : QB over LOS to return to backfield and forward pass = Leaning NO, one more thing forusto watch for.
#17 : DPI =15=AFD, OPI =10. = Strong YES, we need AFD back in DPI.
#18 : Hurdle OK if tackle below the waist. = Strong NO, Hurdling is a dangerous act, not for NFHS.
#19 : Grabing helmet = 15, on more 5 yd. FM = Leaning NO, not in favor or removing 5 yd. FM.
#20 : USC during TD = live ball foul. = Leaning NO, when does celebrating become taunting ? This seems to be a rare call now, if we took the TD away it would probably become more rare.,
# 21 : Full rewrite of IP on OOB plays. = Strong YES, a concern that some may shy away because of complexity with visions of Rule 10 dancing in their head :o
#22 : Coach USC if player not with or wearimng proper equipt.= Solid NO, currently USC/coach comes if a player is wearing ILLEGAL equipment (nails tied to his gloves,etc). This would USC/coach if player had a dangling mouthpiece. I failed to add 'wearing' to my topic.
Thank, guys ,for your opinions and please keep them coming. I value them and often they tend to change my vote.
:sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: tR:oLl
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Happy new year to all and, as always, here are the rule change proposals. I value your opinions highly and will bring your suggestions to our national meeting on January 12-14. Thank you in advance for your response :
(1) Can't attach stuff to mouthguard.OK
(2) Unaltered pants must cover knees.YES
(3) Sweatbands allowed anywhere.OK
(4) No high-tech stuff allowed on players in the game.YES
(5) Eyeshade can have have logo or trademark.OK
(6) Playcards can be worn on belt.OK
(7) RTP on a potential passer in a passing posture .NO
(8) W/I 3:00 of half for choice of clock on snap for penalty.
(9) Injured player can return if qtr. ends.OK
(10) 12 in game = IS.NO
(11) Any whistle = IW.OK
(12) Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble.OK
(13) Inbounds FK dead by touch of OOB R = no foul R's ball there.NO
(14) R can't have player over snapper when in SKF.YES
(15) IG = spot of foul + LOD, no yardage.OK
(16) QB over LOS can't come back and forward pass.NO
(17) DPI = 15+AFD, OPI = 10 yards.YES
(18)Hurdle OK if tackle is below waist.OK
(19) Grabing helmet =15, no more 5 yd. FM.NO
(20) USC during TD = live ball foul from spot.YES
(21) FULL REWRITE OF IP ON OOB.YES
(22) USC on coach if player not with proper equipment. i LIKE THE IDEA OF A BUIILD UP LIKE BOX VIOLATIONS, WARNING, 5 YD, THEN 15.
:sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
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(1) Can't attach stuff to mouthguard. Yes
(2) Unaltered pants must cover knees. Yes
(3) Sweatbands allowed anywhere. Yes
(4) No high-tech stuff allowed on players in the game. Yes
(5) Eyeshade can have have logo or trademark. No
(6) Playcards can be worn on belt. No
These seem to be "Let them do it as seen on TV" or "We're not enforcing it anyway, so why not make it legal" stuff. I get not wanting to be the fashion police, but there's a safety reason for some of these rules. If we're not going to enforce pants covering the knees, then might as well remove the requirement for knee pads at all.
The high tech stuff should be kept out because of an equity concern -- I work a lot of schools that couldn't possibly afford extra expensive gadgets and gizmos, and let's not encourage making that divide worse. It's already awkward enough when the rural mountain school with barely enough pads for 20 players is across the field from the big city school with a home theater set up to have their offense look at plays during the game.
(7) RTP on a potential passer in a passing posture . No. If it's a personal foul, it's already a personal foul. No need to make extra rules for situations already covered.
(8) W/I 3:00 of half for choice of clock on snap for penalty. No. Rarely used under 2 minutes anyway, why make it 3?
(9) Injured player can return if qtr. ends. No. Don't poke holes to make exceptions. A play is a play.
(10) 12 in game = IS. No? Not sure the intent here. I wouldn't want to encourage letting plays go with 12 on the field rather than shutting down pre-snap.
(11) Any whistle = IW. This needs explained better. Like a whistle from the crowd?
(12) Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble. Maybe, but make it consistent. Don't add exceptions for "Only on 4th down" or "Only in the last 2 minutes" or some absurdity like that.
(13) Inbounds FK dead by touch of OOB R = no foul R's ball there. Yes, if the ball is over the field of play when touched by an OOB R player. I can see this being poorly written to have unintended consequences -- ball bouncing inbounds, still airborne when R's coach catches the ball well on the sideline
(14) R can't have player over snapper when in SKF. Yes
(15) IG = spot of foul + LOD, no yardage. Yes, the additional 5 yards always seems excessive
(16) QB over LOS can't come back and forward pass. No
(17) DPI = 15+AFD, OPI = 10 yards. No to AFD. OPI being 10, sure, might get called more often - blocking downfield gets ignored a lot.
(18)Hurdle OK if tackle is below waist. No. Don't encourage hurdling, it will only lead to injuries.
(19) Grabing helmet =15, no more 5 yd. FM. Yes
(20) USC during TD = live ball foul from spot. Maybe. I agree with the intent, but not convinced it will be implemented correctly.
(21) FULL REWRITE OF IP ON OOB. Yes, but I have no faith in the editorial committee to do so on their own...
(22) USC on coach if player not with proper equipment. Has illegal equipment, yes. Missing or improperly worn, only after warning.
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Questions on # 11, any whistle treated as IW. I have questions,too. As sounds as if anything such as Bubba whistling at the prom queen. 1-1-6 is available if something off the wall should happen and not adding the duty of us to listen for faint whistles and deciding if they effected the play.
:puke:
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The under 3:00 rule would come into play under the following condition:
A, leading 10-7, gains a first down with 3:00 remaining. On 1/10, Wideout A88 inadvertently jumps offsides with 2:22 remaining. The following play clocks would then occur.
0-1=25, 1-2=40, 2-3 = 40, 3-4=40
Total of 145 seconds, or 2:25. You may now knee it out as there is 2:22 remaining. The offense gains an advantage through penalty.
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(1) Can't attach stuff to mouthguard. Ok, I guess. Not sure what they mean or are trying to accomplish.
(2) Unaltered pants must cover knees. Shouldn't be needed, but ok if that reinforces things.
(3) Sweatbands allowed anywhere. Ok
(4) No high-tech stuff allowed on players in the game. Ok. But allow exceptions by state associations when needed for individual medical or legal reasons.
(5) Eyeshade can have have logo or trademark. No. Too many logos in football already.
(6) Playcards can be worn on belt. YES
(7) RTP on a potential passer in a passing posture. Yes. Won't happen often, but it's a Safety rule.
(8) W/I 3:00 of half for choice of clock on snap for penalty. No, not needed. Ref can already use 3-4-6 to correct any inequities above 2 mins.
(9) Injured player can return if qtr. ends. No. Why make an exception to a Safety rule, when this should rarely happen?
(10) 12 in game = IS. Yes. Make it simple and clean and an appropriate penalty to what is usually just a procedural mistake by a team.
(11) Any whistle = IW. NO. Let the officials continue doing what they deem fair if there is a whistle from outside the field.
(12) Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble. Yes. It's fair and it's easy to administer.
(13) Inbounds FK dead by touch of OOB R = no foul R's ball there. I don't care. Most people on here seem to be in favor, though.
(14) R can't have player over snapper when in SKF. Yes. Safety rule. Works fine in college.
(15) IG = spot of foul + LOD, no yardage. Yes. This is an appropriate penalty.
(16) QB over LOS can't come back and forward pass. I would change this to say if the ball has been beyond the LOS. Who cares if a player has been? But the ball should not be across and then come back and be thrown forward.
(17) DPI = 15+AFD, OPI = 10 yards. Agree with AFD. Disagree with OPI being only 10 yds.
(18)Hurdle OK if tackle is below waist. No. Don't complicate it in high school.
(19) Grabing helmet =15, no more 5 yd. FM. Yes
(20) USC during TD = live ball foul from spot. Yes. Although for consistency, wouldn't it be better to make any live ball UNS by a player a spot foul? And not worry about whether there was a score or not? A taunts at the B-20 and then a) scores a TD, or b) stumbles and falls at the 1. Seems more consistent to just mark off either penalty from the spot of the foul as long as it's behind the Basic Spot.
(21) FULL REWRITE OF IP ON OOB. YES! YES!! YES!!! I hate the current Fed rule for a receiver who accidentally goes OOB. It's a disproportionate penalty for what should basically just be a misdemeanor.
(22) USC on coach if player not with proper equipment. No. Not needed.
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For what it's worth, here's my current leanings......
#9 : Injured player can return if qtr. ends. = ??? Unsure ??? YES. The purpose is to give medical personnel time to evaluate the injury, which would happen during the qtr change.
#12 : Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble. Leaning YES, If remove our job of intent on 4th down and not allow A to gain yardage by fumbling. Solution in search of a problem in NFHS games.
#16 : QB over LOS to return to backfield and forward pass = Leaning NO, one more thing forusto watch for. I don’t see how this would be a problem to officiate. Plus, most coaches and officials already think this is the rule.
#20 : USC during TD = live ball foul. = Leaning NO, when does celebrating become taunting ? This seems to be a rare call now, if we took the TD away it would probably become more rare. We are still seeing this in our area. I’m in favor of this change.
Thank, guys ,for your opinions and please keep them coming. I value them and often they tend to change my vote.
:sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: tR:oLl
Other than the above, I concur with you, Ralph.
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Questions on # 11, any whistle treated as IW. I have questions,too. As sounds as if anything such as Bubba whistling at the prom queen. 1-1-6 is available if something off the wall should happen and not adding the duty of us to listen for faint whistles and deciding if they effected the play.
:puke:
I'd be for the following -- if there's some obvious external situation that occurs that causes one or both teams to stop playing because they were obviously distracted by whatever happened in the crowd, or parking lot, or wherever, we can kill the play and treat the situation like an inadvertent whistle. I don't want to necessarily invoke the God Rule, but that feels like it's already covered by the God Rule. I wouldn't want Creepy Uncle Steve wolf whistling at a cheerleader, that both teams ignored and continued playing, to make us shut down the play. It would have to be such an egregious, obvious, "What's going on over there?" distraction that it would need special application of the rules, which is already a 1-1-6 situation.
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Ralph:
When is the Rules Committee scheduled to meet?
apology for "Beating a dead horse". the growing practice, at both NCAA & NFL levels of "prolonged individual and/or groups of players engaging in pre-planned/individual or group "celebrations" after the results of play be subject to (1st time) DOG, repeat performances as USC. These antics, apparently accepted, at the higher levels of the sport, are increasingly likely to be repeated at the NFHS level, unless and until prohibited.
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Ralph, I agree with most of your thoughts.
Since you said you can be influenced, let me try and talk you off changing item #12 (Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble)
How many times have you seen a team in high school intentionally do this? IMO, it's a rule in search of a problem in high school.
Or worse, it's a "gee, isn't that NCAA rule cool?"
As for AFD on DPI, I must be in the minority who doesn't want this back.
And on #9, I join those who oppose, as there's no pressing need to rush injured players back in.
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apology for "Beating a dead horse". the growing practice, at both NCAA & NFL levels of "prolonged individual and/or groups of players engaging in pre-planned/individual or group "celebrations" after the results of play be subject to (1st time) DOG, repeat performances as USC. These antics, apparently accepted, at the higher levels of the sport, are increasingly likely to be repeated at the NFHS level, unless and until prohibited.
We've actually had this covered for many years with Rule 9-5 and it can be a USC 1st time.
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Ralph, I agree with most of your thoughts.
Since you said you can be influenced, let me try and talk you off changing item #12 (Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble)
How many times have you seen a team in high school intentionally do this? IMO, it's a rule in search of a problem in high school.
Or worse, it's a "gee, isn't that NCAA rule cool?"
As for AFD on DPI, I must be in the minority who doesn't want this back.
And on #9, I join those who oppose, as there's no pressing need to rush injured players back in.
Thanks, GoodScout, for your opinions.. On the forward fumble OOB rule, I initially felt it would remove our need to rule intent and possibly ^flag IFP., but we would still have that need if the fumble stayed inbounds on 4th down. We would also need to beanbag fumbles behind the LOS with this rule. YOU WIN.. I'm not 'leaning yes' anymore yEs:.
I'm strong ,and will stay, on returning AFD to DPI. While 15 yards creates a first down in 85% of the calls, inside B's 30 halving the distance doesn't always. We had a state championship where an intentional DPI occurred on 4th & goal from B's 8. On 4th & goal from B's 2 ,A failed to score. My phone rang off the hook shortly thereafter. ::)
On injured player returning after qtr. ended, I'm totally open.
You're opinions help. On Monday we are devided into 4 subcommittes where debate which proposals should come to a floor vote. After a final list is complied,, Monday night is dedicated to discussing and sharing opinions on the final list. The final vote and discussion occurs Tuesday. 2/3 are needed to pass. Thank all of you for your time taked to respond
tiphat:
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Thanks, GoodScout, for your opinions.. On the forward fumble OOB rule, I initially felt it would remove our need to rule intent and possibly ^flag IFP., but we would still have that need if the fumble stayed inbounds on 4th down. We would also need to beanbag fumbles behind the LOS with this rule. YOU WIN.. I'm not 'leaning yes' anymore yEs:.
I'm strong ,and will stay, on returning AFD to DPI. While 15 yards creates a first down in 85% of the calls, inside B's 30 halving the distance doesn't always. We had a state championship where an intentional DPI occurred on 4th & goal from B's 8. On 4th & goal from B's 2 ,A failed to score. My phone rang off the hook shortly thereafter. ::)
On injured player returning after qtr. ended, I'm totally open.
You're opinions help. On Monday we are devided into 4 subcommittes where debate which proposals should come to a floor vote. After a final list is complied,, Monday night is dedicated to discussing and sharing opinions on the final list. The final vote and discussion occurs Tuesday. 2/3 are needed to pass. Thank all of you for your time taked to respond
tiphat:
Thank you, for describing the extensive efforts you, and your fellow committee members expend, developing input prior to applying, and/or rejecting, rule modification suggestions for NFHS football rules, on an annual basis. I suspect, included in these multi-layer discussions, is considerable informed debate, on the merit or lack thereof, each proposed revision provides, subject to continuing review following application.
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How many times have you seen a team in high school intentionally do this? IMO, it's a rule in search of a problem in high school.
Or worse, it's a "gee, isn't that NCAA rule cool?"
I actually had this (almost) happen this year. Running back coming around the corner, is angled off by a defender, looks he's going to be contacted prior to the LTG... when out of nowhere, with no contact from the defender, the ball squirts out of the runner's hands, forward, out of bounds just across the LTG.
From my position as back judge, I had no clear view of the play other than "What just happened there?" ... The R and HL (with a much better view than I had) were adamant that it was not intentional, he took a high step/lowered his arm and somehow kneed the ball out of his own hands. It took a good minute to explain to the HC of the defense (which it was his sideline too) that the ball doesn't go back to the spot of the fumble, and it was a first down.
We all agreed after the game that the RB couldn't have done that again if he tried.
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If I were a coach, I would never coach my players to fumble on purpose for any reason. Oblong balls can bounce any direction, and anything can happen.
And I echo the appreciation for the thought and effort that Ralph and others on the committee put into these considerations.
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(1) Can't attach stuff to mouthguard. YES
(2) Unaltered pants must cover knees. I GUESS
(3) Sweatbands allowed anywhere. YES
(4) No high-tech stuff allowed on players in the game. I GUESS, a lot of the high-tech stuff the players are going to wear is going to be under jerseys I think so not sure how we would police this anyway.
(5) Eyeshade can have have logo or trademark. WHAT IS MEANT BY TRADEMARK? I’d prefer not to see eyeshade with a Nike Swoosh on it, okay with a school logo.
(6) Playcards can be worn on belt. YES
(7) RTP on a potential passer in a passing posture . NO
(8) W/I 3:00 of half for choice of clock on snap for penalty. NO, but there is a clear advantage that the team leading could gain outside of 2 minutes
(9) Injured player can return if qtr. ends. YES, the 1 minute between quarters is longer than the time between plays. Plus it reduces workload on the officials to ensure that the injured player doesn’t come out of what is typically a large huddle between quarters
(10) 12 in game = IS. NO. current rule seems to be proportional penalties
(11) Any whistle = IW. NO. Let the current rules do this work
(12) Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble. NO. Not a problem in high school
(13) Inbounds FK dead by touch of OOB R = no foul R's ball there. YES
(14) R can't have player over snapper when in SKF. YES
(15) IG = spot of foul + LOD, no yardage. NO, this would create a situation where there is effectively no penalty for the foul. If passer just gets sacked then it’s the same situation. The 5 yards is effectively punishment for not taking the sack.
(16) QB over LOS can't come back and forward pass. YES. Rarely seen it but allows us to officiate this play easier
(17) DPI = 15+AFD, OPI = 10 yards. YES
(18)Hurdle OK if tackle is below waist. NO. NO. NO
(19) Grabing helmet =15, no more 5 yd. FM. NO
(20) USC during TD = live ball foul from spot. NO. I don’t mind the idea, how it will work in practice I worry about.
(21) FULL REWRITE OF IP ON OOB. YES. Penalty doesn’t fit the crime
(22) USC on coach if player not with proper equipment. KIND OF. Have an equipment warning on the team and then next is USC on coach.
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One thing I can suggest, Ralph, is please, please let the editorial team's work be reviewed by those of you who voted on the rule changes before they're released. It seems way too often we start the season in a malaise of confusion, and sometimes it takes another year before editorial mistakes can be corrected or re-written.
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(1) Can't attach stuff to mouthguard. - Yes
(2) Unaltered pants must cover knees. - Yes
(3) Sweatbands allowed anywhere. - No
(4) No high-tech stuff allowed on players in the game. - Yes
(5) Eyeshade can have have logo or trademark. - No
(6) Playcards can be worn on belt. - Sure
(7) RTP on a potential passer in a passing posture . - Not sure what this would be for?
(8) W/I 3:00 of half for choice of clock on snap for penalty. - No
(9) Injured player can return if qtr. ends. - Indifferent
(10) 12 in game = IS. - Rather get rid of IP's 15 yards for accidentally stepping OOB (which I see is below). Probably support.
(11) Any whistle = IW. - No
(12) Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble. - Yes
(13) Inbounds FK dead by touch of OOB R = no foul R's ball there. - No, just another exception
(14) R can't have player over snapper when in SKF. - Yes
(15) IG = spot of foul + LOD, no yardage. - No, takes away any real penalty
(16) QB over LOS can't come back and forward pass. - Sure
(17) DPI = 15+AFD, OPI = 10 yards. - No
(18)Hurdle OK if tackle is below waist. - No
(19) Grabing helmet =15, no more 5 yd. FM. - Yes
(20) USC during TD = live ball foul from spot. - Yes
(21) FULL REWRITE OF IP ON OOB. - Yes please
(22) USC on coach if player not with proper equipment. - Need something more than "send off for a play", so yes?
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Happy new year to all and, as always, here are the rule change proposals. I value your opinions highly and will bring your suggestions to our national meeting on January 12-14. Thank you in advance for your response :
(1) Can't attach stuff to mouthguard.
Yes
(2) Unaltered pants must cover knees.
Yes
(3) Sweatbands allowed anywhere.
No
(4) No high-tech stuff allowed on players in the game.
Yes
(5) Eyeshade can have have logo or trademark.
No
(6) Playcards can be worn on belt.
Yes
(7) RTP on a potential passer in a passing posture .
Yes
(8) W/I 3:00 of half for choice of clock on snap for penalty.
No
(9) Injured player can return if qtr. ends.
Yes
(10) 12 in game = IS.
Yes. This would help get rid of IP.
(11) Any whistle = IW.
No
(12) Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble.
Yes
(13) Inbounds FK dead by touch of OOB R = no foul R's ball there.
Yes
(14) R can't have player over snapper when in SKF.
Yes
(15) IG = spot of foul + LOD, no yardage.
Yes. No double jeopardy'
(16) QB over LOS can't come back and forward pass.
Yes.
(17) DPI = 15+AFD, OPI = 10 yards.
Yes
(18)Hurdle OK if tackle is below waist.
Yes
(19) Grabing helmet =15, no more 5 yd. FM.
Yes
(20) USC during TD = live ball foul from spot.
Yes
(21) FULL REWRITE OF IP ON OOB.
Yes.
(22) USC on coach if player not with proper equipment.
Yes. Warn, then USC.
:sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
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whoops !!! pi1eOn
Upon recieving our questionairre results I noted that I've left off a very important proposal : " Clock to start on RFP if ball carrier or fumble goes OOB except in last 2:00 if each half." Please respond with your opinion. I've given all of you a 'cheer' for my screwup pi1eOn
MOST OFFICIALS' RESPONSES TO QUESTIONAIRE :
OHIO 911
PENN 778
ILL 709
RESPONSE TO ABOVE QUESTION :
COACHES 33% yes OFFICIALS 75%
AGAIN, SORRY FOR MISSING THIS IMPORTANT PROPOSAL ON INITIAL POST :-[ /color]
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I’m for it, but I doubt it will pass if only 1/3 of the coaches are for it. Coaches want to run as many plays as possible.
I’m really surprised that NFHS hasn’t gone to 15-minute quarters.
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I’m a NO on the RFP outside of 2 minutes in each half. With due respect to the professional clock operators on this board, there aren’t a lot of them working high school games. Quite a few high school clock operators are struggling now based upon the number of clock resets I call in my games.
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No we don't need another part of NCAA timing rules for no reason. High school games are not long. Ridiculous. Add a complication for no benefit. great idea....
HELL NO!!!!!
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High school games are not long.
Um . . .
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Clock to start on RFP if ball carrier or fumble goes OOB except in last 2:00 if each half." Please respond with your opinion.
NO!
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That's a no from me as well.
I'm with lawdog that I don't think games are too long as a rule. I'm also not a fan of those who feel we need to make the games as short as humanly possible -- I enjoy doing this and enjoy being out there as long as it takes, and don't think our goal is to try and get home ASAP. If your goal in officiating is collecting a check and getting back to your couch, I'd suggest you rethink why you're doing this.
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I only have two that I feel must happen. Please. Please.
#13 No rule change, JUST ADD DETAIL TO CASEBOOK PLAY Rule 6.1.9 situation C (b)
#21 IP when oob.
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whoops !!! pi1eOn
Upon recieving our questionairre results I noted that I've left off a very important proposal : " Clock to start on RFP if ball carrier or fumble goes OOB except in last 2:00 if each half." Please respond with your opinion. I've given all of you a 'cheer' for my screwup pi1eOn
MOST OFFICIALS' RESPONSES TO QUESTIONAIRE :
OHIO 911
PENN 778
ILL 709
RESPONSE TO ABOVE QUESTION :
COACHES 33% yes OFFICIALS 75%
AGAIN, SORRY FOR MISSING THIS IMPORTANT PROPOSAL ON INITIAL POST :-[ /color]
I gotta say this is really no different than the restart after a first down inbounds, so our timers would adjust.
Our games have gone from an average of 2:10 or so 15 years ago to over 2:30 today. We had 2 games last year over 3:00 and we work as fast as we can. There will still be long games when the forward passes hit the ground frequently, of course, but there's no reason to start on the snap on a run out of bounds early in a quarter/half other than "that's the way we've always done it."
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No no no no no no no!!!!!
Violates two precepts: 1) Let the kids play and quit trying to shorten game, and 2) Don’t ape NCAA rules just for the hell of it.
Count this official as 100% with a majority of the coaches.
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whoops !!! pi1eOn
Upon recieving our questionairre results I noted that I've left off a very important proposal : " Clock to start on RFP if ball carrier or fumble goes OOB except in last 2:00 if each half." Please respond with your opinion. I've given all of you a 'cheer' for my screwup pi1eOn
MOST OFFICIALS' RESPONSES TO QUESTIONAIRE :
OHIO 911
PENN 778
ILL 709
RESPONSE TO ABOVE QUESTION :
COACHES 33% yes OFFICIALS 75%
AGAIN, SORRY FOR MISSING THIS IMPORTANT PROPOSAL ON INITIAL POST :-[ /color]
RFP outside last 2 minutes = yes. This will significantly speed up games, especially those that are one-sided, but that do not fall under the mercy rule. This also disincentivizes officials from fudging whether a runner ended in or out of bounds (without this change, officials would treat a runner as inbounds to keep the clock running).
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RFP outside last 2 minutes = yes. This will significantly speed up games, especially those that are one-sided, but that do not fall under the mercy rule. This also disincentivizes officials from fudging whether a runner ended in or out of bounds (without this change, officials would treat a runner as inbounds to keep the clock running).
I've got absolutely no issue with officials "fudging" the OB/no OB in a game that is clearly non-competitive. I do have issues with trying to speed up the game unnecessarily. IMHO there is no need to try and shave another 3-5 minute of active play time off the clock. The players want to play and I'm good grabbing my 1st beer a couple of hours after opening kickoff. let's stop trying to shorten the game and do our job.
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Prior to the 1996 timing changes, my average game time was 1:45. It’s now 2:25.
(Admittedly, that was in the days when many teams still ran some version of triple option and halftime was 15 minutes with no mandatory warmup period.)
It got bad enough that our state had to mandate a 7:00 PM start time (rather than 7:30) so that local TV could get the highlights on their 10:00 news shows. Even so, most have now moved to a 10:30 package.
My biggest beef is that, with few exceptions, the sit-down restaurants all close at 10:00. eAt&
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Upon recieving our questionairre results I noted that I've left off a very important proposal : " Clock to start on RFP if ball carrier or fumble goes OOB except in last 2:00 if each half." Please respond with your opinion.
I'm ok with that.
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Happy new year to all and, as always, here are the rule change proposals. I value your opinions highly and will bring your suggestions to our national meeting on January 12-14. Thank you in advance for your response :
(1) Can't attach stuff to mouthguard. NO
(2) Unaltered pants must cover knees.YES & BRING BACK 5 YD PEN
(3) Sweatbands allowed anywhere.WHY?
(4) No high-tech stuff allowed on players in the game.DONT NEED IT
(5) Eyeshade can have have logo or trademark.NO
(6) Playcards can be worn on belt.OK
(7) RTP on a potential passer in a passing posture . NO,RULE GOOD AS IT IS
(8) W/I 3:00 of half for choice of clock on snap for penalty. 2:00 IS GOOD ENOUGH
(9) Injured player can return if qtr. ends. ONE PLAY
(10) 12 in game = IS. KILL AT SNAP OR ITS ON US
(11) Any whistle = IW. NO
(12) Forward fumble OOB = ball back to spot of fumble. PROVIDED A B-BAG IS DOWN
(13) Inbounds FK dead by touch of OOB R = no foul R's ball there. OK
(14) R can't have player over snapper when in SKF. YES
(15) IG = spot of foul + LOD, no yardage. OK
(16) QB over LOS can't come back and forward pass. ABSOLUTELY NOT
(17) DPI = 15+AFD, OPI = 10 yards. NO,ITS EVEN NOW
(18)Hurdle OK if tackle is below waist. NO
(19) Grabing helmet =15, no more 5 yd. FM. 15'S ONLY & THEY'LL ADJUST
(20) USC during TD = live ball foul from spot. YES
(21) FULL REWRITE OF IP ON OOB. HMMMM? IDK ???
(22) USC on coach if player not with proper equipment. SEE #2
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I begin my pilgrimage to Windy Indy on Saturday morn and will be tabuling and posting your pro/con results tommorrow. If you wish to voice/post your opinion please do it soon. I do take your responses seriously and often use some of your opinions in my debates.
AS A NOTARY -IN MAINE WE CAN MARRY - MAY I SAY:
"SPEAK NOW ,OR FOREVER (for a year) HOLD YOUR PEACE" tiphat:
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Via con Deus.
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(1) Can't attach stuff to mouthguard. NO
(2) Unaltered pants must cover knees. YES
(3) Sweatbands allowed anywhere. No Opinion
(4) No high-tech stuff allowed on players in the game. YES
(5) Eyeshade can have have logo or trademark. No Opinion
(6) Playcards can be worn on belt. YES
(7) RTP on a potential passer in a passing posture . NO
(8) W/I 3:00 of half for choice of clock on snap for penalty. NO
(9) Injured player can return if qtr. ends. YES
(10) 12 in game = IS - But must be DB B&T
(11) Any whistle = IW. NO
(12) Forward fumble OOB = Spot of Fumble if forward
(13) Inbounds FK dead by touch of OOB R = no foul R's ball there. YES
(14) R can't have player over snapper when in SKF. YES
(15) IG = spot of foul + LOD, no yardage. YES - and wind game clock if applicable
(16) QB over LOS can't come back and forward pass. NO
(17) DPI = 15+AFD, OPI = 10 yards. NO, no changes needed
(18) Hurdle OK if tackle is below waist. NO
(19) Grabing helmet =15, no more 5 yd. FM. NO
(20) USC during TD = live ball foul from spot. YES
(21) FULL REWRITE OF IP ON OOB. YES
(22) USC on coach if player not with proper equipment. NO - just sit down player until fixed
Regarding #22 - I would suggest something like:
1st occurrence - send out to fix, no penalty
2nd occurrence - send out to fix and DOG, TO charged to team
3rd occurrence - USC and eject for repeated failure to follow official's instructions
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Your penalty progression sounds practical &proper. The USC, I hope, would be levied against the Head Coach (which would put him One away from the lockerroom).
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I've tabulated your responses along with several PMs. It total 16 have offered their opinions, note not all had an opinion for each proposal. I've posted the results on my opening post. Thank you all very much for sharing your thoughts, I value them.
^talk ^talk ^talk ^talk ^talk ^talk ^talk ^talk
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Probably not gonna happen, but it would be nice if the Editorial Committee would allow RefStripes to vet the language before finalizing the changes. One more week wouldn’t make that much difference.
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Mtg was held. Great secret what results are....
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Mtg was held. Great secret what results are....
Next year, a grand slam during stoppage time will result in six goals, unless the defense plays an Uno Reverse. Checkmate!
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The meeting was held, we are all held to secrecy until the proposed changes become real. They need to past two other hurdles before official and will be announced via a press release. Ill let you guys know as soon as I'm given the OK. MY prediction : Grounhog Day,
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I’m betting that there will be at least one change that will take three years to get where the RC originally intended. Any takers? :sTiR:
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I’m betting that there will be at least one change that will take three years to get where the RC originally intended. Any takers? :sTiR:
My gambling daze ended several years ago when I purchased a $10 Maine Lottery ticket. A few days later I returneed to check the outcome :o. I discovered I had won $3 :!# until the cashier explained that I had really lost $ 7 :puke:
Notre Dame VS Ohio State : This is the first championship game with both teams above the Mason-Dixon Line since________________ ?
Who will win_________________?
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The press release is usually a Valentines Day gift.
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Notre Dame VS Ohio State : This is the first championship game with both teams above the Mason-Dixon Line since________________ ?
Since last year? Michigan vs. Washington?
Prior to that, 2014, Ohio State vs. Oregon.
Prior to that... never, going back to the Bowl Coalition days in the early 90s. There seemingly is always an SEC team involved, or Florida State/Miami.
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My gambling daze ended several years ago when I purchased a $10 Maine Lottery ticket. A few days later I returneed to check the outcome :o. I discovered I had won $3 :!# until the cashier explained that I had really lost $ 7 :puke:
Notre Dame VS Ohio State : This is the first championship game with both teams above the Mason-Dixon Line since________________ ?
Who will win_________________?
Since the 2023 playoff...washington and michigan. I think ND takes it...they're playing out of their minds
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To me a no brainer for years is not so much to the rules but why are DEFENSIVE personal fouls not automatic first downs?? Facemask, horse collar tackle, BSB, BBW, Dpi and etc.
This one has always puzzled me
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To me a no brainer for years is not so much to the rules but why are DEFENSIVE personal fouls not automatic first downs?? Facemask, horse collar tackle, BSB, BBW, Dpi and etc.
This one has always puzzled me
We have discussed this several times (not this year) and the majority feeling that by awarding AFD on personal fouls involving a defenseless player( passer,kicker,snapper,holder ) places those fouls at a more severe level. Also, we try to keep an even balance between the offense and defense and am unable to add any strength to PF's by the offense as LOD & AFD are not compatible.