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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: Ralph Damren on February 03, 2025, 01:42:59 PM
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They should be available at a nereby newstand shortly. A few equipment modifications' but the major change is a forward fumble OOB will be returned to the spot of fumble. Clock stops when ball goes OOB, but would start on RFP unless COP. Also, 10-4-4b is removed from 'the basic spot of the foul'. Guess the only thing we have to adjust is to beanbag all fumble spots.
:sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: (7-man crew)
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Big training thing is to make sure everyone distinguishes between a fumble and a backward pass.
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never mind, I misread your post. thanks
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What's the change to the IP rule?
The press release is far from helpful to true officials and coaches, but it rarely is.
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What's the change to the IP rule?
They probably haven't even decided what it is yet... The good ol "editorial committee" will likely change 7 or 8 things and claim it was this.
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Big training thing is to make sure everyone distinguishes between a fumble and a backward pass.
That was discussed, a backward pass OOB remains a the spot of OOB. A backward fumble OOB also remains the spot of OOB. Our general feeling was that a forward fumble OOB would be an unfair gain by the offense. Remember an INTENTIAL forward fumble can be treated as an IFP and ,if occured on 4th down, results in a COP.
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What's the change to the IP rule?
The press release is far from helpful to true officials and coaches, but it rarely is.
Treating IP as a spot foul for 9-6-4a (player entering during a live ball) or 9-6-4g (player continuing to play after losing hat) have situations that would be unfair. Don't worry,guys, the Editorial Committee will clairify.
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Don't worry, guys, the Editorial Committee will clairify.
hEaDbAnG :sTiR: ^flag ^no
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They should be available at a nereby newstand shortly. A few equipment modifications' but the major change is a forward fumble OOB will be returned to the spot of fumble. Clock stops when ball goes OOB, but would start on RFP unless COP. Also, 10-4-4b is removed from 'the basic spot of the foul'. Guess the only thing we have to adjust is to beanbag all fumble spots.
:sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: (7-man crew)
Question for ya Ralph...if the ball is fumbled behind the line and goes OOB, it returns to the spot of the fumble, correct? If so, if A fumbled the ball in its EZ and it went forward and OOB at the 2, then would the result of the play be a safety?
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Question for ya Ralph...if the ball is fumbled behind the line and goes OOB, it returns to the spot of the fumble, correct? If so, if A fumbled the ball in its EZ and it went forward and OOB at the 2, then would the result of the play be a safety?
Really looking forward to the actual rule wording. :sTiR:
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Question for ya Ralph...if the ball is fumbled behind the line and goes OOB, it returns to the spot of the fumble, correct? If so, if A fumbled the ball in its EZ and it went forward and OOB at the 2, then would the result of the play be a safety?
Word straight from NFHS : Result of that play would be a safety and will be supported by a case play.
THE PROPOSED WORDAGE.......
4-3-1 EXCEPTION: When a forward fumble goes out of bounds or is ruled out of bounds by touching between the goal lines, the ball shall be returned to the spot of the fumble, and unless another rule requires the clock to remain stopped, the game clock shall be started when the ball is ready for play.
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Word straight from NFHS : Result of that play would be a safety and will be supported by a case play.
THE PROPOSED WORDAGE.......
4-3-1 EXCEPTION: When a forward fumble goes out of bounds or is ruled out of bounds by touching between the goal lines, the ball shall be returned to the spot of the fumble, and unless another rule requires the clock to remain stopped, the game clock shall be started when the ball is ready for play.
Third and five at team A’s 20 yard line. A1 sweeps to his left, loss of 10 yards to the 10 yard line, and fumbles. The ball rolls out of bounds at the 15 yard line.
Ruling: Because the ball was fumbled forward and out of bounds it is returned to the spot of the fumble and belongs to team A at that spot, which is the 10 yard line. It will be fourth and fifteen at the 10 yard line. The clock starts on the ready.
What if A is winning 7-6 and this occurs with 22 seconds left in the game. Under the old rule, the clock is stopped until the snap and A is likely punting. B would get the ball back with some time left in the game.
Under the new rule, it sounds like the clock is stopped when the fumble went OOB. Then the ball is spotted and the game clock starts. Does A get a 25 second play clock? If so, would the game end with A running out the game clock? Or is a change being made to the timing rules as well ("unless another rule requires the clock to remain stopped ...") ?
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Good question ,Patrick, without making a second call to NFHS today here's my opinion :
Apply 3-6-1a-1: 25 seconds will be on the play clock and start on the ready-for-play signal:
(g) Following the stoppage of the play clock by the refereer for any other reason.
IMHO, unless you ruled an intentional fumble = IFP, ball on A's 5,LOD . Ref could then apply 3-4-6 and start clock on snap.If this occurred on 4th down, remember you can't have an untimed down on a LOD foul.
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Good question ,Patrick, without making a second call to NFHS today here's my opinion :
Apply 3-6-1a-1: 25 seconds will be on the play clock and start on the ready-for-play signal:
(g) Following the stoppage of the play clock by the refereer for any other reason.
IMHO, unless you ruled an intentional fumble = IFP, ball on A's 5,LOD . Ref could then apply 3-4-6 and start clock on snap.If this occurred on 4th down, remember you can't have an untimed down on a LOD foul.
No, I don't think this would be 25. Would we give a team 25 when we stop the clock for a first down? No. I see this as similar.
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Good question ,Patrick, without making a second call to NFHS today here's my opinion :
Apply 3-6-1a-1: 25 seconds will be on the play clock and start on the ready-for-play signal:
(g) Following the stoppage of the play clock by the refereer for any other reason.
IMHO, unless you ruled an intentional fumble = IFP, ball on A's 5,LOD . Ref could then apply 3-4-6 and start clock on snap.If this occurred on 4th down, remember you can't have an untimed down on a LOD foul.
Here's another one - (don't use up your call quota on my account)
B1 intercepts A's pass at the B 2-yard line and momentum carries B1 into the end zone. While in the EZ, B1 is running with the ball and then fumbles forward, the ball crosses the goal line into the field of play and the ball goes OOB at the B5-yard line. For momentum to apply the ball has to become dead in the EZ.
If the purpose of the new rule is:
1. to prevent A from fumbling forward OOB beyond the line to gain
2. to prevent A from fumbling forward OOB to stop the clock
then this new rule should only be applicable when:
1. there is no change of possession
2. there is a change of possession and A is next to put the ball in play (A-B-A)
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No, I don't think this would be 25. Would we give a team 25 when we stop the clock for a first down? No. I see this as similar.
I agree. Play ends, clock is stopped when the ball goes out of bounds. If it was in possession of the runner, we'd start the 40 -- we don't reset to 25 after spotting the ball back on the field. Additionally, the current rule where we spot the fumble at the OOB spot doesn't result in a 25 second play clock either.
The only consideration I'd give is if it takes a while to sort out the spot, and we have to reset to 25 if it wasn't ready by then. However, that's already a rule.
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Here's another situation, not clock related:
1/10 at the A35. A7 scrambling in the backfield, fumbles the ball at the A30 and the ball rolls backwards to the A26:
In attempts to gain possession of the ball:
a) A7 muffs the ball out of bounds at the A28
b) A7 muffs the ball out of bounds at the A32
c) B56 muffs the ball out of bounds at the A32
d) B56 has a foot on the sideline when he picks up the loose ball at the A32
I think A and B are simple, the A28 is behind the spot of the fumble, so it's A's ball there. A32 is ahead, so it is returned to the A30.
I think people will have issues and debates on C and D since the defense "caused" the ball to be out of bounds ahead of the fumble spot. However, since force is only relevant with the ball crossing the goal line into the end zone, the ball is still "A's fumble" when it becomes dead and should therefore be returned to the spot of the fumble (A30) if it's out of bounds at the A32.
While this is overall a pretty rare situation, I see this as the opening to restarting the clock after the runner goes out of bounds on "normal" plays like they do in college/NFL now. That sideline sure is a slippery slope...
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I have no issue with c and d returning the ball to the spot of the fumble. Don’t like it? Hold on to the ball.
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WOW !! You guys are coming up with some great situations. I'll do my best to respond without help from NFHS....
While I tend to agree now with Bossman's & NCwingman's suggestion of 40" playclock ,like a new series or OOB runner, my concern would be time to sort out the spot of fumble and spoting the ball properly may require 3-5-7j (For any unusal delay in getting the ball ready for play) to be applied.
Patrick, where NFHS said A fumble in own EZ with ball OOB in field of play = saftey, I feel your play under our new rule would return the ball to spot of fumble (own EZ) and apply mo'rule.
NCwingman, this was discussed on the floor and the concesus was that the OOB was last possessed by A the ball would be returned to spot of fumble even of the loose ball had traveled several yards downfield and last muffed by B. Note if B recovered A's fumble and then fumbled OOB , ball would belong to B at spot of fumble.
Hope this helps. tiphat:
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No, I don't think this would be 25. Would we give a team 25 when we stop the clock for a first down? No. I see this as similar.
How would the R handle restarting the game clock on the RFP? Does he blow whistle while the 40 is running already, or does he wind with no whistle? Curious how this would be handled.
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How would the R handle restarting the game clock on the RFP? Does he blow whistle while the 40 is running already, or does he wind with no whistle? Curious how this would be handled.
The same way you would handle gaining a first down in bounds today. The whistle/no whistle seems to be a state by state mechanic.
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OK, this is more for Ralph's edification, because we've already been through this (NCAA).
When any fumble goes OOB, unless affected by something else, the play clock is 40 seconds, and starts automatically when the ball becomes dead OOB.
For any forward fumble OOB (and Team A will continue to snap the ball), the game clock stops until the ball is spotted and officials are in position, when the R is to sound his whistle and signal for the game clock to start (including inside 2 minutes in the 2nd/4th periods). Yes, if the ball spotting/officials-in-place process takes us to less than 25 on the play clock, by official interpretation (A.R. 3-2-4-I) we need to pump the play clock to 25 and it should start automatically, without interrupting the game clock.)
(Now, that's the way it is SUPPOSED to be for any OOB condition, except inside 2-mins in the 2nd/4th periods. But TV has pressured the NCAA to have the R re-start the game clock almost as soon as it is stopped. So, you will see the R wind within 2-3 seconds after the ball goes OOB (in possession or loose) - LONG before the ball is spotted. When we first got the current timing rule, Redding issued written instruction (I still have that bulletin) that the R is to sound his whistle with his signal. But the 'cool kids' decided not to sound their whistles. So, today, the vast majority just wind within seconds of stopping the game clock. I always gave my whistle a short tweet with my signal.)
[Having said that, by UIL Exception for high school football in Texas, we do NOT re-start the game clock after out of bounds stoppages (in possession or loose, except forward fumbles OOB). So, there is your precedent, if y'all choose to keep the game clock stopped.]
Regarding the Momentum Exception, following possession of the ball in the field of play, a fumble by the defending team from their own end zone that goes OB (in the field of play or end zone) is, in fact, returned to the spot of the fumble in the end zone, and, officially, the ball is dead at that spot. If impetus is with the defending team, that's a safety. If impetus is by the opponent (via forward pass interception, backward pass interception/recovery, legal kick reception/recovery, fumble reception/recovery), the Momentum Exception applies, which gives the ball to the defending team at the spot where possession was gained in the field of play.
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I have no issue with c and d returning the ball to the spot of the fumble. Don’t like it? Hold on to the ball.
I agree that that's likely the correct interpretation, but I just foresee lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth at rule clinics. You know the guy that's been a white hat for 50 years, "knows" the rule book and hates change? But he's usually a blast at every rules clinic, so nothing really new there.
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The same way you would handle gaining a first down in bounds today. The whistle/no whistle seems to be a state by state mechanic.
Yep, thanks. Overthinking things.....
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Another thing to remember....IF the ball goes OOB BEHIND the spot of the fumble, the game clock DOESN'T start until the snap. yEs:
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Also on this, if the pass is intercepted by a B player in the B end zone who then fumbles from the end zone, where it goes forward into the field of play, and goes out of bounds, then the ball would be returned to the spot of the fumble and it would be a touchback.
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I agree with ncwingman that a forward fumble OOB is rare — I think I’ve seen it once in the last three years. A fumble going forward from the EZ and OOB in the field of play is certainly even more rare. I’ve never had that happen in one of my games.
Ralph, are you able to post the proposals that actually came up for a vote and didn’t pass as you have in the past?
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I agree with ncwingman that a forward fumble OOB is rare — I think I’ve seen it once in the last three years. A fumble going forward from the EZ and OOB in the field of play is certainly even more rare. I’ve never had that happen in one of my games.
No, not rare at all. We see it in our HS games probably a half-dozen times per year, and I see it in TV (NCAA) games about as many times. When I see it on TV games, I am verbalizing, “Bring it back to the spot of the fumble!” And they always do. As R, I don’t, personally, see the ball go OB, but my crew gets on the O2O and lets me know, and we bring it back to the spot of the fumble, and I start the game clock when it is spotted (with a short sound of my whistle :)).
Yeah, fumble from the EZ OOB in the field of play - rare. Fumble from the EZ OOB in the field of play WITH momentum - rarest of rare. Never had either of those.
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I agree with ncwingman that a forward fumble OOB is rare — I think I’ve seen it once in the last three years. A fumble going forward from the EZ and OOB in the field of play is certainly even more rare. I’ve never had that happen in one of my games.
Ralph, are you able to post the proposals that actually came up for a vote and didn’t pass as you have in the past?
There were two that made it to the floor but didn't pass. They were:
7-2-5d "At the snap,if team A is in SKF, any team B player on the line of scrimmage must be aligmned completely outside the frame of the body of the the snapper," Failed 9-41, my biggest grape was keeping B player over snapper to leap in attempt to block FG.
7-5-2e "A forward pass thrown from behind the neutral zone after the ball has been beyond the neutral zone." =IFP. Failed 19-31, my biggest gripe was it could make a flea-flicker illegal.
Rule 2 & 7 for six-player also passed. It clarifies that as long as there is a change of possession from the snap receiver to another player of , the ball can be advanced beyond the LOS. I sat next to a guy from a 6-player state. He voted yes, I voted yes ,too. ^talk. It passed 50-0.
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I agree with ncwingman that a forward fumble OOB is rare — I think I’ve seen it once in the last three years. A fumble going forward from the EZ and OOB in the field of play is certainly even more rare. I’ve never had that happen in one of my games.
Ralph, are you able to post the proposals that actually came up for a vote and didn’t pass as you have in the past?
It's probably less rare than we think, but rare that it has a significant impact. Last year, I had a play where a player managed to fumble forward OOB for a first down. I think that was the first time I'd seen that happen, but it was particularly notable because he fumbled it beyond the LTG. Every other time I can think of it potentially happening, it's either a very small difference gaining a yard or so (next play is 3rd and 6 instead of 3rd and 7) or it's in the middle of a muff scrum and ends up out of bounds before anybody gains possession, and you're more focused on somebody possessing the ball rather than keeping track of how far the ball went while loose (especially since, until now, that didn't matter).
The next Coach Complaint I'm expecting is to enforce this like the Holy Roller -- returning the ball to the spot of the fumble when recovered by A in advance of the fumble. That happens quite a bit, but I've never seen that done intentionally. However, since it's what they do on TV, I'd give it another two years.
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Again, maybe rare, but they happen. Just last season, I had a fumble recovered not only beyond the spot of the fumble, but by a player other than the fumbler, and during a Try. My wing didn’t really recognize what was happening, and allowed the BC to advance the ball into the end zone, and signaled TD. I had to immediately, and emphatically, rule NO SCORE. No field mic, or even radios. I got my wings to come in, reviewed the play and the ruling, and the light bulb went off in their heads, and were, then, to explain the ruling to their coaches.
They happen, and we must be prepared to make the proper ruling for our rule set.
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Again, maybe rare, but they happen. Just last season, I had a fumble recovered not only beyond the spot of the fumble, but by a player other than the fumbler, and during a Try. My wing didn’t really recognize what was happening, and allowed the BC to advance the ball into the end zone, and signaled TD. I had to immediately, and emphatically, rule NO SCORE. No field mic, or even radios. I got my wings to come in, reviewed the play and the ruling, and the light bulb went off in their heads, and were, then, to explain the ruling to their coaches.
They happen, and we must be prepared to make the proper ruling for our rule set.
Agreed, rare. And real good job getting it.
But let's be careful not to confuse anyone. The 4th down fumble rule (and the fumble during a Try rule) are NCAA, and as I understand it, the NFHS did not enact that.
They simply passed the fumble forward oob rule. And that's real easy to officiate. Just get a bag down as best you can. And then remember to wind the clock back up afterwards. If you have a field mic, be sure to announce what's going on with the fumble. People will get it because they're used to seeing it on Saturday.
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Again, maybe rare, but they happen. Just last season, I had a fumble recovered not only beyond the spot of the fumble, but by a player other than the fumbler, and during a Try. My wing didn’t really recognize what was happening, and allowed the BC to advance the ball into the end zone, and signaled TD. I had to immediately, and emphatically, rule NO SCORE. No field mic, or even radios. I got my wings to come in, reviewed the play and the ruling, and the light bulb went off in their heads, and were, then, to explain the ruling to their coaches.
They happen, and we must be prepared to make the proper ruling for our rule set.
Was this during a HS game?
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Texas uses modified NCAA Rules in high school.
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B26 intercepts A14’s pass at the B-4 yardline. His momentum takes him into the EZ, where he is hit and fumbles. The fumble goes OOB at the B-2 yardline.
Ruling?
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B26 intercepts A14’s pass at the B-4 yardline. His momentum takes him into the EZ, where he is hit and fumbles. The fumble goes OOB at the B-2 yardline.
Ruling?
Since the ball did not become dead in the EZ the momentum exception rule does not apply. We have a loose ball OB in team B possession at the B-2 yard line. I've got 1st & 10 for B at the B-2.
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Since the ball did not become dead in the EZ the momentum exception rule does not apply. We have a loose ball OB in team B possession at the B-2 yard line. I've got 1st & 10 for B at the B-2.
With the new rule, the ball goes back to the spot of the fumble. So B2 is incorrect.
NCAA treats this as if the ball never left the end zone. So this would be momentum. B 1/10 @ B4.
I'm sure the FED editorial committee will come up with a dumber ruling.
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Reading the Mo' Rule (8-5-2a EXCEPTION) : ".....where the ball remains in the end zoneand is declared dead in the end zone in his team's possession OR it goes out of bounds IN THE ENDZONE..."; my interp with our new rule if the fumble went OOB in the field of play, Mo' would apply. Have a call into NFHS to get the approved ruling.
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Was just informed that the Case Book is at the printers with several situations involving our new rule including our Mo' question.
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B26 intercepts A14’s pass at the B-4 yardline. His momentum takes him into the EZ, where he is hit and fumbles. The fumble goes OOB at the B-2 yardline.
Ruling?
Add a PF which caused on the runner, which contributed to the fumble…now it’s getting better
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With the new rule, the ball goes back to the spot of the fumble. So B2 is incorrect.
Cheap way to get a safety…which rule will override the other one? Or…an exception to the exception
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Cheap way to get a safety…which rule will override the other one? Or…an exception to the exception
If it follows the NCAA rule, momentum put the BC into the end zone, so the defending team gets the ball at the spot of possession in the field of play (the B-4, in this case). No cheap safety.
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This has been discussed over the last few weeks due to the new "the ball goes back to the spot of the fumble when ball is fumbled forward". Have had lots of opinions but the most prevalent one has been that we would have some form of exception here to use DB spot (B-2). Other options is an "exception" to use NCAA version (momentum exception). Still no formal word out of NFHS that we can find but looking like Ralph has the answer? :bOW
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This has been discussed over the last few weeks due to the new "the ball goes back to the spot of the fumble when ball is fumbled forward". Have had lots of opinions but the most prevalent one has been that we would have some form of exception here to use DB spot (B-2). Other options is an "exception" to use NCAA version (momentum exception). Still no formal word out of NFHS that we can find but looking like Ralph has the answer? :bOW
NOPE ???, no answer here pray:; . I was told that there would be a bevy of case plays covering all situations. Case Books should e out shortly. By FlAg1 Flag Day FlAg1 (6/14) we should have needed answers. We have the Lobster Bowl ,featuring graduated seniors, every July. We always play that by last year's rules.
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B26 intercepts A14’s pass at the B-4 yardline. His momentum takes him into the EZ, where he is hit and fumbles. The fumble goes OOB at the B-2 yardline.
Ruling?
The new Redding's has this as a Safety. Both of these are new additions so are highlighted in gray.
From page 124 - "K13's kick is caught by R18 at the R-3. His original momentum takes him into his end zone where he is hit and fumbles. The ball rolls out of bounds at the R-2.
Ruling: Safety. Although the ball is returned to the spot of the fumble and declared dead there, the ball did not remain behind the goal line.
On page 24 he notes that the Momentum would be off because the ball didn't remain in the end zone.
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With the new rule, the ball goes back to the spot of the fumble. So B2 is incorrect.
NCAA treats this as if the ball never left the end zone. So this would be momentum. B 1/10 @ B4.
I'm sure the FED editorial committee will come up with a dumber ruling.
LOL
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I can see a logical argument for both sides:
(1). B could have simply taken a knee in the EZ and been awarded the ball at the B-3. He chose to try to advance, and fumbled. Since the ball left the EZ, momentum is off and the result is a safety.
(2) By the new rule, the ball is returned to the spot of the fumble and declared dead there in player possession. The momentum rule applies and B is awarded the ball at the B-3.
I’m in favor of #2.
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From the Facebook group:
“Just received a 2025 Federation Rule Book. The forward fumble out of bounds rule change includes a modification to the 8-5-2a Exception - the momentum exception.
The following sentence has been added at the end of the 8-5-2a Exception paragraph....
This includes a fumble that goes from the end zone into the field of play and out of bounds. (4-3-1 Exception).
It appears that the added language clarifies that the momentum exception continues to apply if the ball is fumble from the end zone into the field of play and out of bounds after being carried into the end zone under the momentum exception.
B/R would get possession at the momentum spot (as if the ball had never been out of the end zone). The result of the play would NOT be a safety.”