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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: smojo44 on February 05, 2025, 12:28:24 PM
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1/10 @ A-40, :08 left in the 2nd quarter. A1 takes a shotgun snap, takes two steps backward and, briefly but obviously, simulates taking a knee @ A-33. A1 does not touch the ground with his knee. Instead, he stands upright and completes a forward pass to eligible receiver A87 who then steps out-of-bounds at the B-30 with :02 left on the clock.
I can't find anything in rule 4 that is similar to the NCAA rule which would make the A1 down when he simulates taking a knee and I can't find anything in rule 9 that makes this illegal, although 9-9-1 might apply. What should be the correct next down, distance and clock?
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Under FED what you've described is not illegal, under the doctrine that anything not specifically prohibited by rule is by definition legal.
Another good example of why officials should not say anything when a team tells you "We're taking a knee."
Now, if the QB called across the line to the defense that "We're taking a knee" and then did that, I think you could flag it under the unfair acts rule. I'd put in the same category as the "wrong ball" play.
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1/10 @ A-40, :08 left in the 2nd quarter. A1 takes a shotgun snap, takes two steps backward and, briefly but obviously, simulates taking a knee @ A-33. A1 does not touch the ground with his knee. Instead, he stands upright and completes a forward pass to eligible receiver A87 who then steps out-of-bounds at the B-30 with :02 left on the clock.
I can't find anything in rule 4 that is similar to the NCAA rule which would make the A1 down when he simulates taking a knee and I can't find anything in rule 9 that makes this illegal, although 9-9-1 might apply. What should be the correct next down, distance and clock?
As "player safety" is a PRIMARY concern, I would kill the play as soon I determined the intent was to end the play & avoid unnecessary contact. Should either the QB, or a member of the coaching staff object, and confirm their objective was a deliberate deception, I would advise them such behavior would constitute a flagrant UNS foul and either/both would be subject to spending the 2nd half in the locker room.
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Now, if the QB called across the line to the defense that "We're taking a knee" and then did that, I think you could flag it under the unfair acts rule. I'd put in the same category as the "wrong ball" play.
I'd be more inclined to kill the play because the QB "took a knee", even if his knee didn't touch the ground. Then I would warn both player and coach not to try that again. Not technically by the book, but a little preventative officiating to stop the shenanigans.
Now, if the QB doesn't simulate taking the knee, that's a little harder to do accidentally on purpose. You might throw USC flag on that, but I'm not the flag happy type. However, if at the end of the 4th quarter, that same team lines up to take a knee again and the defensive line plays hard anyway, I'm definitely giving them the benefit of the doubt.
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as soon as he starts kneeling, he's giving himself up so kill it. If he wines, then tell him its BS and you aren't going to allow it.
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Ralph, it seems like the sentiment is 100% to stop this action. Some say you have enough rule to support flagging it. Others maybe not so sure. Precisely why the NCAA identified it as a specific action to be stopped, so there is no guesswork or judgment needed. Sounds like you may need to propose identifying it specifically, or, at least, adding a ‘case play’ to clearly make this a action to be stopped, so your membership are all on the same page, paragraph, and sentence!
Couldn’t hurt.
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I agree with Lawdog on this one. IMHO, a solid reply could be: "Coach, your QB by begining to bring down his knee, his forward progress had stopped. For the saftey of your QB, I'm ruling the play dead." yEs:
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I’m on record that if this happens in my game, I’m gonna have an intentional IW. “Sorry, Coach, I screwed up.”
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I’m on record that if this happens in my game, I’m gonna have an intentional IW. “Sorry, Coach, I screwed up.”
Respectfully, rather than suggest your action might have been a breach of YOUR common sense, a more appropriate response to a Coaching objection might be, " I assessed the situation as an unintentional threat to player safety rather than a deliberate effort to commit a recklessly flagrant and deliberate UNS Conduct behavior, to hopefully assure such behavior should NEVER happen mistakenly again.
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I’m on record that if this happens in my game, I’m gonna have an intentional IW. “Sorry, Coach, I screwed up.”
Yo, 'Bama, you are more nice than me :) as an IW would give them a 'do-over' while my suggestion would cause them to waste a down and lose yardage yEs:. NOW, guys, what IF the QB yells as he rushes up to the LOS (for the benefit of his opponents) "I'M GONG TO SPIKE IT :laugh: ". He than fakes a spike and throws a touchdowen pass....
^good :puke: :puke: :puke: ^no ^flag :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
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Player safety is not a factor in this action. I'm not going to pretend that it is.
Deception is part of the game. The case book describes an unfair act as including "actions or verbiage to confuse the defense into believing there is a problem and a snap isn't imminent ..." This is a live ball. The offense pretended to do one thing but did something else. That happens many times every game.
This is not a foul. Just because the defense stops playing doesn't the offense must stop too.
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Sorry. Misspoke. Not a foul in NCAA, either. The ball is dead, by rule. No one has to guess or use judgment.
Personally, have never had to apply this rule. But, it is a good rule that allows us all to rule on it consistently.
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Player safety is not a factor in this action. I'm not going to pretend that it is.
Deception is part of the game. The case book describes an unfair act as including "actions or verbiage to confuse the defense into believing there is a problem and a snap isn't imminent ..." This is a live ball. The offense pretended to do one thing but did something else. That happens many times every game.
This is not a foul. Just because the defense stops playing doesn't the offense must stop too.
Well, I guess if any/all deception satisfies your interpretation (and your hat is white) it's your standard. However, there is a mountain of evidence that allowing "Pandora's Box" to swing open & closed, can be really problematic. Stopping play to eliminate "perception" of an inappropriate behavior doesn't automatically acknowledge a foul. It can, hopefully occasionally identify and prohibit an inappropriate behavior that pointing out, will, again hopefully, prevent repetition, which "possibly" then may well be subject to appropriate discipline.
Allowing such "deception" to go unchallenged may likely only encourage repetition, or other inappropriate tactics.
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Well, I guess if any/all deception satisfies your interpretation (and your hat is white) it's your standard. However, there is a mountain of evidence that allowing "Pandora's Box" to swing open & closed, can be really problematic. Stopping play to eliminate "perception" of an inappropriate behavior doesn't automatically acknowledge a foul. It can, hopefully occasionally identify and prohibit an inappropriate behavior that pointing out, will, again hopefully, prevent repetition, which "possibly" then may well be subject to appropriate discipline.
Allowing such "deception" to go unchallenged may likely only encourage repetition, or other inappropriate tactics.
I believe no part of the behavior or tactics is inappropriate.
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I believe no part of the behavior or tactics is inappropriate.
WOW!
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Player safety is not a factor in this action. I'm not going to pretend that it is.
Deception is part of the game. The case book describes an unfair act as including "actions or verbiage to confuse the defense into believing there is a problem and a snap isn't imminent ..." This is a live ball. The offense pretended to do one thing but did something else. That happens many times every game.
This is not a foul. Just because the defense stops playing doesn't the offense must stop too.
Agreed, not a foul, but I've got a DB the instant the "fake knee" happens. Taking a knee is universally accepted as a way to kill a play without contact. It has no place as part of a play fake.
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Agreed, not a foul, but I've got a DB the instant the "fake knee" happens. Taking a knee is universally accepted as a way to kill a play without contact. It has no place as part of a play fake.
Except contact is allowed on a play where the offense takes a knee and in a one score game should be expected.
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I wrote Case 9.9.1b back in 2001 when a member of the Editorial Committee. If I listed 100 trick plays that would be illegal, some creative coach would come up with play# 101. IMHO, to fake taking a knee or fake spiking the ball woud fall under this rule. While I don't feel an UNC ^flag would be needed, killing the play should surfice. The classic unfair act would be a big ole' Bubba coming off the bench to make a TD saving tackle. I think we all would agree that ^good would be the proper call, yet it occured during a live ball and is covered by the IP rule. IMHO, faking a "stopping the play act" would fall under "actions or verbage designed to confuse the defense into beleiving a play IS ENDING..."
A few years ago , I had the following situation...
SCENE : Late in a game, in a "taking a knee" situation
ACT I : QB goes under center and yells "I'M TAKING A KNEE."
ACT II : QB fades back and stops 5 yards behind the LOS.
ACT III : I tweet my tweeter.
ACT IV : QB sez' "BUT ,THEY WEREN'T COMING AFTER ME ???"
ACT V: I responded," They were being nice, and your forward progress had stopped. 8] "
ACT VI : QB took another knee, game ended , and we all lived to tell about it.
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Agreed, not a foul, but I've got a DB the instant the "fake knee" happens. Taking a knee is universally accepted as a way to kill a play without contact. It has no place as part of a play fake.
Well stated "common sense", that should minimize (avoid) any unnecessary/avoidable contact elsewhere on the field. However, in the remote possibility, should such deliberate behavior be repeated, stronger, additional, punitive action may be far more appropriate (USC).