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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: peteacher on October 01, 2008, 12:28:31 PM
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::) Would like some feed back on a situation we encountered during a JV. game. Time was running down about 45 sec left on the clock and the offensive team had a 8 pt. lead. Coach informs us he will take a knee and we in turn informed the defensive players of their intent. The ball is snapped and the QB takes a step back and waits for the defense to move, about 8 - 10 sec went by before the QB took a knee and and the opposing coaches are upset because the QB didn't take a knee right a way. I was the R and held the whistle until the knee touched the ground. Is there a rule that states QB must take a knee right away? I have mix feeling about informing the defense, they could have a bad snap.
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You are going to find a number of philosophies to this.
1. Dont tell the defense anything. It is still a game (especially with only an 8 point lead). Tell the offense to protect the quarterback. Tell the quarterback to go down and come right back up and give you the ball. If someone does something dumb (like diving over the line and drilling the kneeled quarterback, he will likely be ejected).
2. Tell the defense either to play smart or that "IF HE TAKES A KNEE....." That way you aren't as much of an influence on the play.
3. Whistle as soon as the ball is snapped and the quarterback shows he ISN'T taking a knee immediately. Technically, this is an IW but it also might prevent the kind of outrage you had in your game.
4. Flag a team that doesn't take a knee for unsportsmanlike conduct (if, for example, they run a play instead of taking a knee).
I personally subscribe to philosophies #1 or at most #2 depending upon the level, the lead, and the tone of the game.
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Tell the coach that if his kid is going to take a knee, he'd better get on the ground as soon as he gets the snap. Otherwise, we'll just stand back like it's any other play.
I never have understood why the QB doesn't take a knee with his knee already on the ground. ???
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REPLY: Here’s my “take-a-knee” rant…
The offense doesn’t get to unilaterally determine when competition stops—especially when the difference in score is fairly small. If the QB (or coach) tells me he’s taking a knee, I tell him: “Do it immediately after the snap.” There's no rule that makes him do it, but there's also no rule that prevents the defense from cleaning his clock if he's just standing there.
I tell the defense, “Be smart. Play the whistle.” Don’t ever, ever tell them to let up. That’s not your right. What if you tell them to ease up and the QB muffs the snap? You will have taken away an opportunity for them. Don’t do it.
Now, by far the most important communication you can have is with the offensive line. You need to tell them, “Continue to play football and protect your QB.” They need to know more than anyone that the game’s not over. Nine out of ten ‘problems’ in these situations arise from the offense just standing up figuring the whole world’s is resigned to the QB kneeling down and some defensive end comes through untouched and nails the QB (legally) just as he gets the snap and as he begins to kneel.
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We got caught in this trap two years ago. QB announced that he's taking a knee, but the Offensive Co-Ordinator sees something he likes and yells in an audible. White Hat had closed in to cover the QB. Defense had been told that the QB was dropping then the dang QB drops back and launches a 50 yard completed pass. White Hat had to scrammble to get out of the pass rush, he drops a flag for USC, Umpire drops a flag for a hold ..... We go with the USC. All hell breaks loose on my sideline. End of first half. Head Coach really chews my butt for the USC. I get with the crew and learn what took place .... so before the half starts I go back to the team and discuss the situation with the Head Coach and the Offensive Co-Ordinator. They bring the QB into the conversation. QB acknowledges that he informed the White Hat that he was taking a knee. Once everyone understood what had taken place, I then explain. From this point forward we will not close in when the QB announces his intent to take a knee. We also will not inform the defense that the QB intends to take a knee. The QB's announcement to the White Hat will afford him some additional protection, but your offensive line had better block. The QB needs to drop right away, no delayed dropping to the knee ...
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1. I'm not telling anybody anything other than "Be Smart so you can play next week". (At the same token, I am against any certain of "silent" signal to the crew. They should have enough football sense to know what is about to happen.)
2. There was 45 seconds left. Assuming it was a dead clock, he wanted to run some time off so he could pretty much assure he would not have to snap it again. Smart play on QB's part.
3. It was a live ball. Defense could have crossed the line and made a legal tackle. That's a risk the QB takes. The game is not over. Keep officiating.
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2. Tell the defense either to play smart or that "IF HE TAKES A KNEE....." That way you aren't as much of an influence on the play.
That's my M.O. It's the same as telling the defense to "lay off the snapper" on scrimmage kick formation plays.
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There is no "rule support" for many of the "take a knee" precautions most officials apply in the vast majority of "take a knee" situations. However, the consistent results of the vast majority of these precautions validate the common sense applicatiuon of these precautions.
As many have offered, what you say, if you choose to say anything is very important. Bear in mind, HS football is not the NFL nor a BCS bowl game regardless of the hype applied even to rivalries or key league games and we're dealing, almost exclusively, with teenagers who often have a slightly different sense of what they think is appropriate, or funny.
For every 1,000 "take-a-knee" situations that turn out exactly as anticipated because of officials taking a unique positioning near the QB, and offering some level of caution either by something said, or just a stern look, there might be a single situation where something unexpected, or stupid, happens.
The choice we make is to either allow all the unnecessary potential problems with those 1,000 situations, by doing nothing, or taking prudent precautions and electing to deal with those rare unexpected or, stupid situations, when they might actually occur.
Game situation makes a big difference, so how you handle things when there's a 6 point spread is a lot different than when the spread is 15 points of higher. Relying on the judgment of teenagers, when there's even a remote possibility of unnecessary injury, is not what we're on the field for, neither is worrying about some wrong minded interpretation of the "letter" of an existing rule by a frustrated coach who may have momentarily allowed emotions to cloud his better judgment.
In almost ALL take-a-knee situations, the outcome of the game has been established, there is nothing more to accomplish, for either team, and the danger caused by frustration may be at a peak. We get to choose to allow a situation to develop, or prevent one from happening needlessly.
Sometime the job does require that we be "the Sheriff", and our primary concern, above all, is that everybody standing on the field, at that moment, gets to walk off on their own. The "Game" expects us to rise above the emotion of the moment, regardless of the frenzy anyone else may be experiencing, and to do what is right and makes sense, even above what may be the letter of some rule. How we specifically accomplish the desired result varies, but as long as we're successful it really doean't matter.
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In almost ALL take-a-knee situations, the outcome of the game has been established, there is nothing more to accomplish, for either team, and the danger caused by frustration may be at a peak. We get to choose to allow a situation to develop, or prevent one from happening needlessly.
No, it is common at the end of the first half, no matter what the score is.
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We had a youth game last weekend where the QB was told to take a knee by his coach with about 15 seconds left, but us officials said nothing. The whole crowd knew what was going to happen. But on the snap the QB very slowly stepped back a couple steps and never went down. His line gave up blocking really fast (expecting him to take a knee) and let some d-linemen through who drilled him (legally) as he stood there not getting on his knee. I was nervous (as WH) when coach started yelling, but then I realized he was yelling at the QB telling him he deserved it. Funny situation, but a good reason you can't just kill it and tell the D to lay off; you never know what they'll do.
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This came up in my association last night. Team A announced that they were taking a knee to the officials and Team B coaches. The ball was snapped and the runner ran a sweep down the sideline. The refs blew it dead. Team A coaches said the kid made a mistake. No one bought it.
The consensus was that if A announces that they are taking a knee and they don't, kill the play.
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The consensus was that if A announces that they are taking a knee and they don't, kill the play.
Why?
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I have to concur with Al 100% with this issue.
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If a coach has his QB tell me he's taking a knee, he expects me to tell the other team and protect his linemen and QB. Otherwise why tell me? If one of the defensive players blows up the center or blitzes and nails the QB before (or after) he goes down, there's going to be a flag. In exchange for that protection he better take the knee. If he doesn't, he using me to help deceive the other team.
I believe there's an almost universal etiquette among coaches that faking taking a knee is highly unethical. I've never seen it done at any level. This isn't "deceiving the opponents" within the intent or spirit of the rules.
If this ever happened in one of my games, I suspect the fake would be so good that it would fool us too and there would be an inadvertent whistle.
AB -- you're the coach. Would you ever do something like this in a game? How would you view a coach who did?
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AB -- you're the coach. Would you ever do something like this in a game? How would you view a coach who did?
I wouldn't tell you I was taking a knee, I would just do it. I see the officials job to protect the QB by the rules, not "proactively" tell the defense not to play.
If an official tells my defense not to play, don't expect them to listen. Nowhere in the rules or interpretations does the official have any right to tell a team not to play.
If a QB tells you he's taking a knee, tell him to make sure his line is still blocking for him!
If you are going to tell the defense not to play, then why are we going through the charade of even having the play and taking a knee? Just end the game. Then you are certain no one is going to hit the QB.
But you can't do that, so taking the knee is a play, and if there is a play, then everyone gets to play.
Suppose the QB says he's taking a knee, but then backs up and stands there until pressured, and THEN takes a knee. Well, if you told the defense not to play, then the QB could stand there all day. And the coach didn't lie to you, the QB IS taking a knee, he's just not doing so right away.
I don't tell you when I'm running a 5 step fade, nor do I tell you when I'm running a toss sweep. Why should I tell you I'm taking a knee?
Call the game the way it comes to you, don't go proactively changing it. If QB says he's taking a knee, maybe he is and maybe he isn't. He doesn't need EXTRA protection from you, he needs the protection granted by the rules, and the rules assume the defense will continue to play, so the offense had better.
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If one of the defensive players blows up the center or blitzes and nails the QB before (or after) he goes down, there's going to be a flag.
What happens if the snap is muffed? Doesn't the defense get a chance to get the ball? Why are you stopping the defense from getting in the best position possible to recover a muffed snap?
You might as well just end the game and not even make the team snap the ball. You seem to think that nothing either team can do will matter. The defense can't end up with the ball and if the QB tries to run a play you will just blow it dead. Why not just save everyone some time and declare the game over with 1:20 left?
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Why?
Because they are deceiving the opponent.
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Because they are deceiving the opponent.
The only reason the defense 'knows' that the offense is taking a knee is because you interjected yourself into the game and told them. It's no different than a team lining up for a scrimmage kick you telling the defense to stay off the snapper. If K runs a fake are you going to penalize them for deception?
When you tell the defense to give up and not make a play when the offense declares that they're taking a knee you're allowing the offense to dictate that the game is over. Bad snaps happen. Fumbles happen. Just take a look at the fiasco surrounding the end of the Sayville game under General Discussions.
If the coach of A tells you he's taking a knee you would be best served to tell him to make sure his offensive line does what they're supposed to do to protect his QB. You shouldn't expect one team to stop playing because the other team wants to stop competing. My instructions to the teams in this situation are simple - Defense, if the ball carrier is down the play is over. Be smart. Offense, protect yourself.
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The only reason the defense 'knows' that the offense is taking a knee is because you interjected yourself into the game and told them. It's no different than a team lining up for a scrimmage kick you telling the defense to stay off the snapper. If K runs a fake are you going to penalize them for deception?
When you tell the defense to give up and not make a play when the offense declares that they're taking a knee you're allowing the offense to dictate that the game is over. Bad snaps happen. Fumbles happen. Just take a look at the fiasco surrounding the end of the Sayville game under General Discussions.
If the coach of A tells you he's taking a knee you would be best served to tell him to make sure his offensive line does what they're supposed to do to protect his QB. You shouldn't expect one team to stop playing because the other team wants to stop competing. My instructions to the teams in this situation are simple - Defense, if the ball carrier is down the play is over. Be smart. Offense, protect yourself.
No, in the play I posted, the coaches announced it to the officials and the other teams coaches.
The way I have seen taking a knee handled in my short career is that Team A announces it. If they just line up in a tight formation, there's no telling what they are going to do.
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There are no special rule coverages for, "taking a knee" and a lot of what transpires depends on "local custom", specific game circumstance and common sense. As many have suggested, what a Referee chooses to say to players, in these situations, is critical and appears to vary.
Aside from the written rule, or lack thereof, we might consider who we are working with, for the most part teenagers whose emotions tend to rise and fall above, or below, normal standards. "Taling a knee" is normally an indication that the game has essentially been decided, but for the clock running out. One team is dissappointed, perhaps even frustrated and possibly angry all of which can produce foolish actions. The other team is happy, perhaps even giddy and sometimes prone to being overtly condescending which can create a volatile combination of emotions.
Each "Take a knee" situation is unique and should be handled as such. Handling each unique situation is a decision the field Referee must make based on what he sees, and feels, knowing full well he's pretty much on his own and will be second guessed and criticized if something goes wrong whatever he decided to do.
Personally, I will not allow myself to be part of any deception by the offense. If they suggest they will take a knee, I will stop play the instant the snap is successfully completed. If that is deemed a "mistake", it's likely not the only mistake I've made that day and I'm willing to deal with whatever consequences that may bring. I stand much closer to the QB and advise both teams, "If he takes a knee don't do anything stupid" and thus far, thank God, the tone and expression have conveyed the proper message and nothing crazy has happened and more importantly everybody was able to walk of the field on their own power.
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Player safety is always at the fore front of officiating. My take on the situation is that if the QB is going to take a knee that it would be smart for him to do it right away. Let's just say in this situation the coaches start yelling at there players to tackle him and one of the players sacks him, Do you have a foul? My answer in that situation is no. What would you do? Great topic for discussion.
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REPLY:
Atlanta Blue ..... ^good
waltjp ..... ^good
You guys said it as well as anyone could.
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I simply tell the defense IF he takes a knee, stop on the whistle, I then look at the offense and tell them to protect themselves, we are still playing football.
I don't do anything unless the QB or coach tells me they are taking a knee. If they tell me that, I repeat my message above before every snap.
Sometimes a kid will look at me after he gets knocked on his rearend (by a legal hit) and throws his hands up in the air....I just reply with, "What? I told you we are still playing football."
I've yet to have a kid take off and run an actual play. And if they did, I'm not sure I'd throw a flag, as I've told them IF he takes a knee....and we are still playing football.
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We talk to players all the time to avoid throwing flags in other situations, what makes this one different? What happened to "preventive officiating".
IF a coach tells me they are taking a knee, ( and there's no rule that says he has to, obviously) I will respond to the coach and the qb that he should do so immediately after receiving the snap. I will also tell the defense that ONCE THE QB TAKES A KNEE, he is down, and the play is over.
I suppose I treat it like a kicker. A kicker does not become a kicker until he actually kicks the ball. The qb is fair game until he takes a knee.
I don't know that this way is right or wrong, it just seems consistent with how we work at other times of the game, so why should it change at the end of the period?
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If the coach is yelling "take a knee" and the offensive does not, it is deceptive, but not as much as implying to the defense that a snap is not imminent. I think you cause more problems than it's worth by telling the defense that a knee is coming. Personally, I would say nothing.
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Just don't say anything...until he takes a knee.
It ain't brain science.
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Just curious what your take is on taking a knee. In the NFL, the Bucs were critisized for hitting the qb after he took a knee. I support that. They were down by less than one score and they have as much right to win the game then the offense. Now, I understand that in the NFL, there is a "gentleman's agreement" that if there isn't enough time left in the game, then you allow other team to take a knee and finish the game. I have also spoken to other fans who hate the "take a knee" play and feel it is cheating the fans. I have also seen at the high school and youth level where the officials will tell the defense not to hit if the offense is taking a knee. Again, I'm okay with that if the defense is more than two scores away, but I feel that is unfair to the defense if they can get the ball back. What do you guys do and please reference any rules that may support your stand.
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You tell them not to hit the QB, then the QB fumbles the snap. Now what?
NEVER tell the defense not to hit the QB. My first preference is that the officials stay out of coaching and not say anything. But if you can't help yourself, tell the defense not to do anything stupid IF the offense takes a knee.
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I never say anything (I might say something like "play smart"), just have the officials to pinch in a lot and have their whistles ready in their hands (not in their mouths).
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Oh no, not again.....
<headsmack thingy>
http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=4398.0
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Oh no, not again.....
<headsmack thingy>
Agree. Wettstein, this topic has been addressed in numerous threads, which we all welcome you to consult.
Here's a brief summary:
Some officials try to enforce their own vision of how the "victory" play should go down and flag any deviation from their opinion as UNS.
Some officials think they have no business coaching and say nothing, officiating play as usual.
Some officials will tell the offense to "protect yourselves" and the defense "don't do anything stupid," then officiate the play as usual.
Some officials think their way is the only proper/legal/traditional/historical/defensible/reasonable way to officiate "victory."
Nobody has gotten much traction on this issue, AFAICT.
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Some officials try to enforce their own vision of how the "victory" play should go down and flag any deviation from their opinion as UNS.
Some officials think they have no business coaching and say nothing, officiating play as usual.
Some officials will tell the offense to "protect yourselves" and the defense "don't do anything stupid," then officiate the play as usual.
Some officials think their way is the only proper/legal/traditional/historical/defensible/reasonable way to officiate "victory."
I don't know about officials, but coaches prefer #2, but can live with #3. Those following #1 are going to have to respond to a report filed with the state.
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but coaches prefer #2, but can live with #3.
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I call BS here AB. Team B may prefer # 2 but I guarantee you Team A's coach is livid and wants PF, USC, ejection and maybe death by hanging.
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You tell them not to hit the QB, then the QB fumbles the snap. Now what?
NEVER tell the defense not to hit the QB. My first preference is that the officials stay out of coaching and not say anything. But if you can't help yourself, tell the defense not to do anything stupid IF the offense takes a knee.
First, I usually tell the offense to protect themselves and I tell the defense, "Don't do anything stupid."
I don't see anything wrong with telling the defense, "Told hit him if he takes a knee."
That's not coaching, it's preventive officiating, trying to keep someone from getting hurt and someone else from getting ejected.
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I have also spoken to other fans who hate the "take a knee" play and feel it is cheating the fans.
I completely agree.
I absolutely hate the 'victory formation' of taking a knee. If you're up by 17, fine, but not if you're up by only 1 score.
I love how Canadian Football handles this. Sitting on the ball is basically illegal. Near the end of the game, the offense must gain at least 1 yard or the clock stops. This forces the offense to play the game until the end.
Why can't we add this to American Football?
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Near the end of the game, the offense must gain at least 1 yard or the clock stops. This forces the offense to play the game until the end.
Why can't we add this to American Football?
They did, in Arena League football. In the last minute (maybe 2 minutes, can't recall), if the team that is ahead is on offense, and they don't gain yardage on the play, the clock stops and starts on the snap.
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I don't get the complaints. Clock management is part of every game with a clock. The notion that managing the clock is somehow cheating someone is risible.
If you don't want your opponent to run the "victory" formation, then take the lead.
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I completely agree.
I absolutely hate the 'victory formation' of taking a knee. If you're up by 17, fine, but not if you're up by only 1 score.
I love how Canadian Football handles this. Sitting on the ball is basically illegal. Near the end of the game, the offense must gain at least 1 yard or the clock stops. This forces the offense to play the game until the end.
Why can't we add this to American Football?
Suggest it as a rule change to your state assoication.
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For what it's worth, the psyche/procedure round these parts is if QB tells R they are taking a knee, R will tell B, "guys, he's taking a knee. dont do anything stupid."
B doesnt do anything.
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Apparently that philosophy only holds true for the amateur ranks in your area, eh Steve? :D
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Apparently that philosophy only holds true for the amateur ranks in your area, eh Steve? :D
Seemingly true at most every level but the bush-leaguers in this town.
Perhaps if they worry more about playing for the other 59 minutes then going all-out in victory formation or trying to draw K offsides by yelling signals (ala dick butkus) they might be winning a little more.
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Seemingly true at most every level but the bush-leaguers in this town.
Perhaps if they worry more about playing for the other 59 minutes then going all-out in victory formation or trying to draw K offsides by yelling signals (ala dick butkus) they might be winning a little more.
Ouch!
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"Be aware, They are taking a knee"
Seems pretty simple to me. Whatever happens before and after the ball is snapped is called as it needs to be. No need to overthink something that doesn't need to be!
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If you don't want your opponent to run the "victory" formation, then take the lead.
That's not it. I don't like my OWN TEAM doing it either.
It's just a boring play, and if we're not allowing the defense to rush in, why not just end the game when the offense gets the ball with 1:15 left (:25 x 3)? Why go through this 'formality'?
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I love how Canadian Football handles this. Sitting on the ball is basically illegal. Near the end of the game, the offense must gain at least 1 yard or the clock stops. This forces the offense to play the game until the end.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's not quite right. After the three-minute warning, the clock stops AFTER EVERY PLAY.
The clock starts on the RFP if the ball is downed inbounds on the previous possession, but starts on the snap if the previous possession was
a) a change of possession
b) incomplete pass
c) ballcarrier downed out of bounds
d) accepted penalty by either side
and starts on the snap if preceeded by
e) a timeout
Note that the play clock is only 20 seconds, by the way. The RFP is held until both sides have reasonable chance to make substitutions.
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Some officials will tell the offense to "protect yourselves" and the defense "don't do anything stupid," then officiate the play as usual.
:thumbup
I'm not in the business of coaching, and I'm darn sure not in the business of calling plays. Telling both teams to "be smart" is as far out on that ledge as I'm stepping.
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During the last game of the season, with playoff implications on the line, the coach of Team A, who was losing by 6 points, yells to us that his team is taking a knee. There is 45 seconds to play in the first half. We relayed this to Team B. Team A breaks the huddle and lines up in their formation and the Team A coach begins yelling they aren't taking a knee. This caused confusion with our crew, so R blew his whistle for an official's timeout to let B know that A was not taking a knee. In the future, we will handle this play differently . If the score is lopsided and the game is decided, we will continue to communicate with the linemen. If the game is still in the balance, we will not say anything and let the play run its course. There are coaches out there (AB is not one of them) who will try to use the confusion from the "take a knee - don't take a knee" to their teams advantage.
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There are coaches out there (AB is not one of them) who will try to use the confusion from the "take a knee - don't take a knee" to their teams advantage.
Around our parts, we have had the same issues.
We tell the defense to lay off, that that offense is taking a knee. If the offense does anything other than take a knee, our chapter has been told to blow the play dead immediately and issue a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct.
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That's not it. I don't like my OWN TEAM doing it either.
It's just a boring play, and if we're not allowing the defense to rush in, why not just end the game when the offense gets the ball with 1:15 left (:25 x 3)? Why go through this 'formality'?
Some people find a dive play boring. De gustibus non est disputandum.
You go through the "formality" because the game is not over until time expires.
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Around our parts, we have had the same issues.
We tell the defense to lay off, that that offense is taking a knee. If the offense does anything other than take a knee, our chapter has been told to blow the play dead immediately and issue a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct.
And what rule allows a USC call?
Why not just officiate the game you have?
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And what rule allows a USC call?
Why not just officiate the game you have?
Because our local chapter tells us this is the way we must officiate the 'take a knee' play. Only following instructions.
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And what rule allows a USC call?
Why not just officiate the game you have?
Similar to the "wrong ball" play. Illegal deception.
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Some people find a dive play boring. De gustibus non est disputandum.
You go through the "formality" because the game is not over until time expires.
And I think a majority of us would find the (in)action of a soccer game boring, but it is by far the most loved game in the world.
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Around our parts, we have had the same issues.
We tell the defense to lay off, that that offense is taking a knee. If the offense does anything other than take a knee, our chapter has been told to blow the play dead immediately and issue a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct.
I can't seem to find that in the list of FED "by state adoption" options.
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Similar to the "wrong ball" play. Illegal deception.
Do you flag the offense for USC if the QB in the huddle loudly says "#33 sweep right" and then they throw a long pass to #80 on the left? If not, why throw a flag for running a play from an apparent take-a-knee formation?
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I have no problem with a team looking like they are going to take a knee and then run a play out of it.
I do however have a problem with Team A telling the officials they are going to take a knee and then running a play out of it.
In the first situation, Team A is just fooling Team B through a unique method (I have no problem with this as it goes on all the time). You formation can sometimes say "pass" and you instead run out of it. I am not sure I see any difference between setting up in this "victory formation" with 20 seconds left and running a play out of it compared to going "5-wide" with 20 seconds left and running out of this set. Having said all of that, how does this situation differ from faking a "spike"? Someone smarter than me needs to explain the difference.
The second situation is something completely differant however. Team A has brought a third party (The officials) into this deception. This is when their is potential for a problem. If I tell the defense that they are taking a knee and they run a play out of this formation than I have helped them deceive and that is not alright. Basically, for that one play, it was 12 vs 11.
It is for this reason that it might be best to not say a word unless you feel like their is impending problems that await. Meaning, do you expect the Defense to get in one last "cheap shot" as time expires? How do you believe that the Offense will respond? If your answer is "poorly" than saying something may be considered good preventative officiating which I am always a big fan of.
Hard to come up with a blanket statement on this one!
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Similar to the "wrong ball" play. Illegal deception.
No, it is not similar enough, nor illegal deception. The "wrong ball play" is specifically prohibited because it deceives the defense into thinking that "a snap isn't imminent." That rationale is not available with regard to "victory."
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No, it is not similar enough, nor illegal deception. The "wrong ball play" is specifically prohibited because it deceives the defense into thinking that "a snap isn't imminent." That rationale is not available with regard to "victory."
Exactly right.
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not saying it's 'right' or 'wrong' but round these parts:
QB tells R he's taking a knee; B is informed 'they're taking a knee - nothing stupid.'
if A does not take a knee - USC.
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not saying it's 'right' or 'wrong' but round these parts:
QB tells R he's taking a knee; B is informed 'they're taking a knee - nothing stupid.'
if A does not take a knee - USC.
OK, I'll say it: it's wrong.
Simple answer: A shouldn't tell the officials or B anything, just play.
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Do you flag the offense for USC if the QB in the huddle loudly says "#33 sweep right" and then they throw a long pass to #80 on the left? If not, why throw a flag for running a play from an apparent take-a-knee formation?
It's not about the formation, it's about informing the officials and using the officials communication to the defense to put the defense at a relaxed position.
If you and/or your crew have the philosophy of not getting involved, and the offense is in 'victory' formation, but runs a play, that's not a penalty.
But if you choose to tell the defense that the offense is taking a knee, you can't let a regular play be run.
To me, that's an argument to not get involved at all, other than maybe a "be smart" warning.
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Team A has brought a third party (The officials) into this deception. This is when their is potential for a problem.
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Hard to come up with a blanket statement on this one!
I agree.
There are many times we say things to try and prevent injury. For example, the R and U use the illegal formation signal on kick-plays and tell the defense 'lay off the snapper', as the snapper has protection on these plays. We have one team who uses this to their advantage by lining up the snapper at the end of the line and throwing to him.
We say 'ball is gone' when the kick or pass is gone. This is to let players know they can let up, and quit going to the quarterback, in order to protect both the QB from being hit late, and the defense from getting a foul. What if we were fooled, and say 'ball is gone', but it isn't, and the QB still has it? I can't imagine this happening, but anything is possible.
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We say 'ball is gone' when the kick or pass is gone. This is to let players know they can let up, and quit going to the quarterback, in order to protect both the QB from being hit late, and the defense from getting a foul. What if we were fooled, and say 'ball is gone', but it isn't, and the QB still has it? I can't imagine this happening, but anything is possible.
I've actually once or twice started to vocalize "g" before realizing that it was a very good pump fake... fortunately I haven't got as far as actually yelling "gone" with the ball still being with the QB/punter.
I don't know what I would do if I really did yell out "gone" too early. Now that I think about it, I probably would have to follow it with an "inadvertent" whistle and go with the IW provisions. I can't think of any other way out of it.
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For example, the R and U use the illegal formation signal on kick-plays and tell the defense 'lay off the snapper', as the snapper has protection on these plays.
And that's wrong, too, since the prohibition is against charging directly into the snapper. They can still make contact if they shoot the gaps.
We tell 'em "Don't rough the snapper." It's quick, concise, and correct.
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I probably would have to follow it with an "inadvertent" whistle
Good idea, but then it's not an 'inadvertent' whistle, it's an INTENTIONAL whistle enforced as an inadvertent whistle. LOL
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I'm a little annoyed that some people are so adamant that it is wrong to relay the information, or call a foul when it is.
As far as I understand, every association or state have some exceptions or changes to some aspect of the rules.
Mine have decided - since the discipline of the players is weak and they might use unnecessary plays to injure an opponent at the end of a game, that the offense is allowed to register the 'Take a knee' and they will be allowed to run down the clock and conclude the game. I expect some semi-pro leagues in the US are similar (in the lack of discipline).
If they don't they will be penalized.
Should my association simply enforce an option that they don't have to snap if the time/time-out/down combo means that they can run out the clock? Maybe, but they haven't. The teams know what is expected of them, and we will try to close out the game without any ugly incidence.
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If the time/time-out/down combo means that O can run out the clock and they tell us they're planning to take a knee we give D the option to just call the game there.
If D opted not to take it and make O go through the motions then I’d let O run whatever play they want, to date however the option to call the game has never been turned down.
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has anyone considered the liability issues that could arise from officials informing the defence that 'taking a knee' is imminent only to have a defensive player getting seriously injured after the offence fakes a knee and runs a dive play because he took the officials advice and 'layed off' and played nice?
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can an Administrator lock this? Certainly there are 2 sides to this fence and perhaps we all can agree to disagree, no matter what side of the fence we are on.
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can an Administrator lock this? Certainly there are 2 sides to this fence and perhaps we all can agree to disagree, no matter what side of the fence we are on.
Done!