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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: fencewire on November 24, 2009, 07:20:32 PM
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Are there any other options visible at this point in time?
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I'm not sure "strike" is appropriate. I plan to stay with TASO and work games as usual. The uil cannot keep me from working games, they may attempt to prohibit the schools from hiring me, and may be successful, maybe not. If they are, I will be happy to works TAPPS high school games and my college schedule.
If they are successful in keeping the schools from hiring me and others, I am not sure there will be enough uil registered officials to cover all the varsity and sub-varsity games. I don’t call this a “strike”. Timmons said if necessary he will get 2 basketball and three volleyball officials to work the games. It’s a shame the kids will pay for the sins of the uil.
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My gut feeling is there are enough basketball, volleyball, softball, baseball, etc folks that they could get enough warm bodies to fill the needed slots. Many of those "lesser" sports officials have probably secretly longed for the "Friday night lights" but did not want to go through the 3 - 5 year period it might take in some Chapters to get on the varsity field. With the "thinning of the herd" that seems about to happen, that waiting period may be reduced to 0. Those 1A-3A schools who thought they were gettong less than the cream before are in for some "fun" times.
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Have they even gotten ultimate approval for this yet? I know it was expected to be rubber stamped but has that even occured? I am of the same thinking as Mike, they will find some warm bodies and in those areas where roundball is already UIL, there is their primary focus. If the change goes through if I understand it, if you aren't "registered" with them, then 1204 would exclude you from doing any varsity UIL game.
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When is the Commisioner of Education supposed to approve or disapprove these changes? Anyone know when D day is?
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A thought occurred to me in reading some of this...
Have any of the college supervisors chimed in to their folks about this matter? I know that several of them have been very loyal to TASO over the years. Several of these supervisors have been very active in TASO.
Will they let their guys assist in training of UIL officials?
Will they support UIL as they have TASO?
Will some of the DII & DIII superviosrs even let their officials work for them if they work UIL games?
Just a random thought!!
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I would not use the word strike either. We are being locked out. I still plan on calling TAPPS and sub varsity as needed. Things should work out once the Texas High School Football Coaches Association gets into the offseason. I am sure that between a basketball guy running everything, and being forced to use a pre-determined site for state championships, and our issues they could put pressure on the drivers ed instructor that we could never imagine. As set in our ways as we are it is nothing to how good ole boy and set the THFCA is.
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((()))
It would be neither a strike nor a lockout, since this is not a union / management thing. It is a supply & demand thing. As independent contractors, we have the right to accept or decline assignments. TASO folks should simply decline to join the UIL; decline to accept assignments from the UIL; and decline to work with anyone that does join the UIL. When the supply of capable officials doesn't meet the demand, the UIL will have to re-open a good-faith, two-way dialog with TASO, at which point progress can be made.
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Doc I thought that was teh legislative council meeting.
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Thanks TexDoc.
So maybe strike isn't the most appropriate term.
As an independant contractor, you definitely have the right to join whatever group you wish, but you decline to register with UIL, then as it stands currently, you won't be calling any varsity UIL games next year.
That is fine if you feel like that the majority of your career is behind you, but I think if you asked the folks that were just getting into it, or maybe they have been in 5-10 years, I would guess a large majority of those folks aren't ready to hang up the stripes yet. Also, as Mike alluded to, I think that in places where UIL already has a basketball chapter, that will be their primary recruting base should there be a lack of supply in a given area.
Fortunately, maybe, we will have the position where we can watch this unfold with Baseball and see how that shakes out prior to us being put in the position to do anything, I believe.
This pretty much sucks no matter how you slice it.
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Thanks TexDoc.
So maybe strike isn't the most appropriate term.
As an independant contractor, you definitely have the right to join whatever group you wish, but you decline to register with UIL, then as it stands currently, you won't be calling any varsity UIL games next year.
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You're not getting it.
If the UIL has no pool of folks to draw from next fall, they'll be forced to re-open a dialog with TASO. Then TASO will be able to, at the very least, get things back to the way they were (if not improve the situation). You will be working varsity games, if TASO folks hold their individual grounds. Keep the faith.
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Perhaps if we hold our ground and only work TAPPS, that would obviously be to TAPPS advantage as they would be gaining a lot of experienced officials. UIL would be stuck with folks they went out and recruited. UIL member schools may then choose to join TAPPS so they could get also have experienced officials. What benefits do the schools actually get from being UIL?
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((()))
I strongly recommend to all TASO folks that they not work any UIL football until the UIL abandons this takeover effort. By that, I mean don't work varsity or sub-varsity - period. The greater the headache for the UIL, the quicker they'll reach for the TASO aspirin.
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Fortunately, maybe, we will have the position where we can watch this unfold with Baseball and see how that shakes out prior to us being put in the position to do anything, I believe.
This pretty much sucks no matter how you slice it.
fencewire.....we are going to be the first to experience this mess. The "mandate" goes into effect beginning with the '10-'11 school year (aka Football season).
Elvis, I am with you 100%. Stand strong and we will all be back working next fall.
Have a blessed Thanksgiving everyone.
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Maybe dallas and houston can chime in here but I think they have their pickd in the Spring don't they? So let's say they and a few other chapters do that. They do everything as they always have. They do not require their members register with UIL. As the season is about to start in August they tell the schools the crews they selected are not UIL members and they are happy to work the game but UIL might not count the games for the schools. Let's watch the telephone lines light up then!
What I think will happen though is there will be groups of guys in ea area who will form UIL chapters and then set up their own picks. They will tout their UIL affiliation and warn the schools re use of nonUIL refs. They may have enough to cover the varsiTy schedules and will not have to prove they can handle subvars until mid-august. By then they may be able to bring in some more members.
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Call me old fashion, but I'm still concerned for the players and the integrity of the game. Our high school careers are the some of the greatest memories we share, and last a lifetime. I would hate to see these young players memories be blemished by something out of their control. And even worse that I'm a part of it.
Lets all just pray that an agreement can be reached for the sake of these young athletes.
Gary
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And the UIL cares about them too. They will not let this get to the point of no games. There will be a season. What is not as clearcut is what the UIL//TASO relationship will be.
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OK..I will begin these comments by saying that I am a TASO member and prior to that an SFOA member (18 years). At the present time I side with TASO and our arguments regarding this unfortunate situation we find ourselves in. But it does cause me to think a little......
Why did we begin officiating High School football? Many reasons I am sure but high on many lists will be "for the love of the game", "to give back and stay involved in the game" and "for the love of working with young athletes". You don't officiate for money or loyality to anything other than the rules.
The way this whole thing is going down leaves a bad taste in my mouth. By refusing to officiate next season we are harming the game we all love. As I said, at present I am leaning WAY towards not working. I will work a few sub-varsity games, work my college schedule and be happy.
Maybe we need to reflect on why we do this, not who we do it for. Just something to think about.
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Nobody is refusing to officiate. All that is being refused is the arbitrary useless unfair tax that is being proposed on us.
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I sent Mr T an e-mail last week (unanswered) reccomending the UIL just charge us football officials $20, since membership in the Fed costs $30. We'll get zero benifit from being members of the Fed. His silence tells me its all about the $$$.
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((()))
You're not getting it.
If the UIL has no pool of folks to draw from next fall, they'll be forced to re-open a dialog with TASO. Then TASO will be able to, at the very least, get things back to the way they were (if not improve the situation). You will be working varsity games, if TASO folks hold their individual grounds. Keep the faith.
Oh, I definitely get it. Here is the rub, you are betting on the fact that they will be forced to re-open dialog. My point is, what if we roll craps and they don't?
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Guys it really comes down to the fact. Do we want to call football. I say that we do. Whether it be TASO or UIL, we just all want to call football. TASO has screwed up big time over the years (thanks Ray) and the UIL is tired of it. No matter who wins this thing we all just want to call football. If you pay your dues to UIL, you will call football, and nothing changes. If you pay TASO, you sit at home. What does TASO give us that the UIL wont. Not much frankly. If the UIL wants to go to Federation (I pray they dont) they can and will and TASO cant do a thing about it. Now the pay scale is a concern, but if they cut it, whether you are a TASO guy or not they have the right to do it and just like we are now, you can choose to call football or not. Its really like a rule change, every year they change something. Does TASO have a say about it? NO and they never will. But we accept the rule book as is and we adapt. This is truly another rule change. TASO screwed up and we officials WILL ADAPT. A wise man told me years ago, DON"T EVER THINK YOU CAN'T BE REPLACED. TASO is betting we can't be replaced, but that wise man was correct, WE ALL CAN BE REPLACED AND WILL BE EVENTUALLY. Even you Houston guys. Happy Thanksgiving to all.
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If you are for real and not just a troll, you are clearly biased and have a gripe with Ray. Well Ray hasn't been in charge for "years" so don't use him as a scapegoat. And why do you feel the continued need to fire at Houston? What did they do to you???? And TASO did not bring us here. A few TASO baseball and basketball chapters did
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TxDoc is spot on with his assessment. The game will go on. It becomes an individual choice. Do you want to work under the UIL or not. I chose not. I am not bigger than the game. I can be replaced. I know that. I love officiating and will greatly miss the Anthem next August, however, after 20 years on the field, I am excited about a Friday night date with my wife and no missed family activities for sub-varsity games. Thank you Mr. Timmons and Mr. Breithup for finally showing me the important things in life are not football related. Without you, I would still be under the influence of calling high school football. Thank you for giving me the incentive to hang up the cleats.
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What does TASO give us that the UIL wont. Not much frankly.
just to name a few:
- Mechanics Manuals
- Training
- Advocacy
WHat will the UIL give us that TASO does not:
-Membership to the NHSF, what does that mean to you black and white?
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and i would add to the list of what TASO does:
1 - a certification system (even if flawed it is a system for identifying with some degree of accuracy a ref's level of experience and preparation)
2 - a system for facilitating consistency in officiating across the state
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Brad it means I'm working football next year. We will get training, mechanics manuals (not the TASO owned ones) and a certification system that is currently in the works. Its just another rule change. Life goes on.
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Brad it means I'm working football next year. We will get training, mechanics manuals (not the TASO owned ones) and a certification system that is currently in the works. Its just another rule change. Life goes on.
Any of you Texans thinking about taking this shallow-thinking character out behind the woodshed?
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Any of you Texans thinking about taking this shallow-thinking character out behind the woodshed?
Maybe that is why he won't post his name and Chapter?
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For those of us in the dark. As a member of Taso am I a member of a Union.?.Or is it an Organization of like minded individual Contractors. and If so do we have to choose one over the other? can we Dieon Sanders it and choose both...and if we do Tapps games won't we have to still be TASO members. In my area TAPPS is growing and has as many games on a Friday night as the public schools. Is this all about dues paid to UIL vs TASO. ? for most of us we just pay dues and never think about what that gets us aside from the right to call games. We need an education of what either group will offer. Will UIL give the officials protection from lawsuits. Will they pay for injury's obtained during a game like they do for players? etc. We are Uninformed what either group has to offer. For some they do have a dog in this fight they just don't know who the opponent is. Wish we could have a debate presidental style where both groups can present thier cases side by side.
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For those of us in the dark. As a member of Taso am I a member of a Union.?.Or is it an Organization of like minded individual Contractors. and If so do we have to choose one over the other? can we Dieon Sanders it and choose both...and if we do Tapps games won't we have to still be TASO members. In my area TAPPS is growing and has as many games on a Friday night as the public schools. Is this all about dues paid to UIL vs TASO. ? for most of us we just pay dues and never think about what that gets us aside from the right to call games. We need an education of what either group will offer. Will UIL give the officials protection from lawsuits. Will they pay for injury's obtained during a game like they do for players? etc. We are Uninformed what either group has to offer. For some they do have a dog in this fight they just don't know who the opponent is. Wish we could have a debate presidental style where both groups can present thier cases side by side.
((()))
No, you are absolutely not a member of a union. You are an INDEPENDENT contractor.
The real heart of the issue is that officiating must be completely independent of the UIL. The UIL are the schools & coaches. And to be under their thumb would be like literally letting inmates run a penitentiary. I'm not comparing the UIL to criminals, but the relationship of lawbreakers to a society's justice system is the same relationship that teams have with officials. Officials are the entire justice system for sporting events, and officials simply must be free of any possible influence from the participants. Sadly, this has never been the case with UIL sports. The UIL's system of selecting officials for contests has always left the door open for influence. But, at least there was somewhat of a separation between schools and officials with the UIL supporting TASO, mitigating the conflict-of-interest of schools/coaches selecting officials. If the UIL absorbs officiating, there will no longer be any sort of separation, and the conflict-of-interest will be 100%.
Apparently, the UIL is expecting TASO chapters to serve as their assignment agencies (because they damned sure don't have the infrastructure to make assignments), either as an intact (but powerless) organization, or with chapters abandoning TASO and switching affiliation to UIL (and directly answering to the UIL). I am confident that the vast majority of TASO members and chapters are more intelligent than the UIL thinks they are, and will simply decline to join the UIL or assist the UIL in making assignments. When the UIL are unable to fill even a fraction of the assignments for the first week of the 2010 season, they will be forced to recognize their foolishness, and re-open a dialog with TASO.
If they want TASO officials, then the UIL needs to abandon this attempt to absorb officiating within the UIL, and discuss in good faith how we can mutually resolve the conflict-of-interest issue, the "accountability" issue, and the compensation issues.
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Since we are getting down to time for the TASO (Dec. 6) and UIL (Dec. 18) meeting, how many Chapters have had a vote on whether to go or stay? At this time, East Texas has not had a vote.
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Why do FB Chapters have to have such a vote at this early moment? Did someone mandatethat?
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No, no mandate set. I was just curious, with all the talk, if any chapters had voted.
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Received this from a volleyball official.
You need to find out how bad the volleyball officials were treated at the State Play-offs in San Marcos. Officials were actually asked to leave the UIL's hospitality room, told where to sit in the stands and actually told not to mingle with other officials in the stands.
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Brad it means I'm working football next year. We will get training, mechanics manuals (not the TASO owned ones) and a certification system that is currently in the works. Its just another rule change. Life goes on.
Actually, UIL suggest theys did not intend to change any of the training or mechanics manuals that TASO produces. They still want TASO to do all that stuff.
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Received this from a volleyball official.
You need to find out how bad the volleyball officials were treated at the State Play-offs in San Marcos. Officials were actually asked to leave the UIL's hospitality room, told where to sit in the stands and actually told not to mingle with other officials in the stands.
Why would they not allow them in hospitality room? its for coaches and Officials.. No mingle is absurd why would they say that... Anyone know a Vollyball official willing to comment on this board??? Why such strongarm tactics.
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^flag
What is all this talk of of "how certain chapters are going to vote?" In essence, they are TASO chapters but a lot of them feel that they have the "right" to defect to the UIL if they so choose. Where they are severely missing the boat is that "they are TASO chapters" and to that end, all property, records, computers, cash, bank accounts, tangible and intangible assets remain the exclusive property of TASO or to the members who want to continue representing TASO.
Several UIL Chapters in the other sports are getting prepared to be slapped over this in a local court of jurisdiction. Once that happens, is the UIL going to bail them out with contributions, loans, property, etc? With the serious financial shortfall prevalent with the public schools on a statewide basis, exactly where does the UIL expect to come up with the revenue to help the UIL Chapters to overcome these legal challenges and ultimate rulings?
I'm afraid that the UIL and the Superintendents came to a rash decision based on little to no legal precedence. Which ultimately goes to prove that this is nothing more than a "power play" on the part of the UIL. Those who conspired within the UIL ranks to bring about such drastic changes should ultimately lose their jobs for having exercised so little rational judgement and to blatantly promote a power play without having truthfully advised the state legislative or executive branch of their heavy-handed tactics!
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^flag
What is all this talk of of "how certain chapters are going to vote?" In essence, they are TASO chapters but a lot of them feel that they have the "right" to defect to the UIL if they so choose. Where they are severely missing the boat is that "they are TASO chapters" and to that end, all property, records, computers, cash, bank accounts, tangible and intangible assets remain the exclusive property of TASO or to the members who want to continue representing TASO.
Several UIL Chapters in the other sports are getting prepared to be slapped over this in a local court of jurisdiction. Once that happens, is the UIL going to bail them out with contributions, loans, property, etc? With the serious financial shortfall prevalent with the public schools on a statewide basis, exactly where does the UIL expect to come up with the revenue to help the UIL Chapters to overcome these legal challenges and ultimate rulings?
I'm afraid that the UIL and the Superintendents came to a rash decision based on little to no legal precedence. Which ultimately goes to prove that this is nothing more than a "power play" on the part of the UIL. Those who conspired within the UIL ranks to bring about such drastic changes should ultimately lose their jobs for having exercised so little rational judgement and to blatantly promote a power play without having truthfully advised the state legislative or executive branch of their heavy-handed tactics!
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Wow Arbitrator, Did Ray Parker approve your message? That reply and the fact that you have only had 1 previous message on this board, tells me this is TASO's response to all of this. The thing that strikes me kind of funny is how everything TASO says or distributes is negative, and everything the UIL says and promotes is positive. Seems to me TASO knows they have screwed up big time and is desperately trying to save face. Time to move on!!!
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Spoken by one who has "only" 22 posts here, many of which are just on this one topic. What have you ever contributed to the education of others here? If you are the future of officiating under UIL then it will be much easier for me to get over missing officiating.
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Just curious - did some research on UIL - I too was wondering how they would take on such an ambitious undertaking - especially with the cost they would obviously have to front - This is as much a question as a statement, but isn't UIL also the University of Texas? The University of Texas is the single largest land owner in the state of Texas due to donations in kind - they are also one of the largest recipients of oil revenue due to said land ownership. I don't see them not being able to mount a very formidable attack - if you are counting on them not having the resources, as some posts have implied, it doesn't make sense.
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This was sent by the Dallas Chapter to all the members.
There has been a considerable amount of information, misinformation, and discussion concerning the relationship between the University Interscholastic League (UIL) and the Texas Association of Sports Officials (TASO) during the month on November.
As Secretary of the Dallas Football Officials Association (DFOA), I have been in communication with the TASO-Football Board of Directors throughout this period of time as efforts have been undertaken to attempt to resolve any differences. We should make no mistake; this is a serious matter which is not going to go away by simply doing nothing.
In October of this year, the UIL unilaterally changed the wording in Section 1204, which deals with officials, to remove TASO officials from working UIL varsity sports. A major factor in making this change according to the UIL was to seek "an alternative with more accountability". This is an insult to every official and officiating chapter in the state, and particularly to TASO-Football, which is recognized as the most effective organization in the nation with respect to training and development of football officials.
Texas has been a shining example of how schools and officials should interact. This was accomplished through the efforts of the UIL and TASO working together. Officials need to be represented by an organization that understands officials and is administered by officials. We have never demanded anything, but have always been willing to discuss what makes football better for all involved - never forgetting that the student athletes are the ultimate beneficiaries.
The DFOA President, Vice-President, Secretary, and District 7 Representative are in agreement that the DFOA should continue to operate as we have in the past with the expectation that reason will eventually prevail. We will pay our TASO dues as we have done in the past, contact schools for their schedules, and offer our services to the school districts as we have always done. This is the same approach that will be taken by the other large chapters in the state, such as Houston, Austin, Fort Worth, and San Antonio, with the desire that this will be the approach taken by all chapters.
We will meet with the TASO-Football Board of Directors on December 6th as we continue to explore various options. Many of you received a letter from the UIL indicating that they would have a registration meeting in San Antonio on December 18th. Our officers do not plan to attend that meeting unless there have been discussions with the TASO Football board, and they indicate that they would like for us to attend.
It is our interpretation that the UIL has not acted in good faith. The things that were said to us in the spring at the Presidents / Secretaries work shop have been violated over and over. As questions have arisen, their explanations change as in becomes obvious that problems have not been adequately addressed. A look at how they have acted with the other sports will tell you their intentions. At the present time, they indicate that they want the TASO chapters to continue, do all the training, administration, and other work as they have done in the past - but we should send dues to them.
The DFOA is a proud organization which believes that we have always operated openly and with integrity. We will continue to do that with the expectation that our customers appreciate the product that we are able to provide to them.
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This was sent by the Dallas Chapter to all the members.
There has been a considerable amount of information, misinformation, and discussion concerning the relationship between the University Interscholastic League (UIL) and the Texas Association of Sports Officials (TASO) during the month on November.
As Secretary of the Dallas Football Officials Association (DFOA), I have been in communication with the TASO-Football Board of Directors throughout this period of time as efforts have been undertaken to attempt to resolve any differences. We should make no mistake; this is a serious matter which is not going to go away by simply doing nothing.
The Dallas Chapter (and all the State for that matter) have truly been fortunate to have Charles Stephenson all these years. His experience, knowledge, and sense of the game are exactly what we will be losing (and what will be the most significant loss) if we lose TASO. Anyone who ever heard CS speak and did not learn something has to be dumber than a rock.
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Just curious - did some research on UIL - I too was wondering how they would take on such an ambitious undertaking - especially with the cost they would obviously have to front - This is as much a question as a statement, but isn't UIL also the University of Texas? The University of Texas is the single largest land owner in the state of Texas due to donations in kind - they are also one of the largest recipients of oil revenue due to said land ownership. I don't see them not being able to mount a very formidable attack - if you are counting on them not having the resources, as some posts have implied, it doesn't make sense.
((()))
No doubt about it, UT has an enormous financial foundation. And, yes, the UIL is an entity under the Vice President for Diversity & Community Engagement at UT. But, between now and next September, no amount of money can train and give the years of experience, to the level of the current TASO membership, to the some 3,000 people that the UIL will need for the first week of the 2010 football season. With their resources, they might be able to recruit 3,000 people between now and then, but what kind of officiating will they be able to offer? The student athletes that will take the field that week, regardless of class, deserve better.
Keep the faith.
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For those of us not in Texas, but interested in this situation would it be possible to get a brief synopsis of what is going on?
Am I correct in my understanding that UIL is the state association to which the schools belong and that TASO is the association of officials in Texas - and that the schools in UIL contract with different TASO chapters to have their games offiiciated?
In La., we are all registered with LHSAA and all of the regular season assigning is done through our local (10) associations for the regular season and for playoffs LHSAA assigns games to the individual associations and then the association assigner assigns the individual officials. The assigner reccommends officials for the state championship games, but the officials assigned must be approved by the asst. commissioner of LHSAA who is responsible for officiating.
How does TASO handle this differently now and what are the advantages of doing it that way.
Thanks.
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One point of major correction to your post (and not at all taking sides here). The chapters are their own entities and most, if not all, are registered non-profit orgs (501-(c)-3). They do not "belong" to TASO, nor is their money or their tangible property owned in any way by TASO. The money those chapters have in the bank and the computers and other equipment they own are property of the chapters (and their membership).
That being said, all a chapter would have to do is change their bylaws to exclude any mention of TASO. The chapter could then move in whatever direction they wished, continue mandating members be a member of TASO or any other organization in order to be a member in good standing.
One point of major correction to your post (asnd not at all taking sides here). The chapters are their own entities and most, if not all, are registered non-profit orgs (501-(c)-3). They do not "belong" to TASO, nor is their money or their tangible property owned in any way by TASO. The money those chapters have in the bank and the computers and other equipment they own are property of the chapters (and their membership).
That being said, all a chapter would have to do is change their bylaws to exclude any mention of TASO. The chapter could then move in whatever direction they wished, continue mandating members be a member of TASO or any other organization in order to be a member in good standing.
It is very important that for everyone to realize that TASO (the state organization) does not own local chapter property or bank accounts. But, any money collected at the end of this year for state dues for TASO is TASO money that cannot be diverted to any other entity.
If a chapter wishes to move away from TASO, all they have to do is change their bylaws to remove any mention of TASO or requirements that their members also be members of TASO.
I'm certainly not saying they should, but that they indeed can do this. TASO would have no footing to stop this.
What cannot happen is a chapter deciding to have everyone register with UIL instead of TASO while their bylaws state otherwise.
It is very important that for everyone to realize that TASO (the state organization) does not own local chapter property or bank accounts. But, any money collected at the end of this year for state dues for TASO is TASO money that cannot be diverted to any other entity.
If a chapter wishes to move away from TASO, all they have to do is change their bylaws to remove any mention of TASO or requirements that their members also be members of TASO.
I'm certainly not saying they should, but that they indeed can do this. TASO would have no footing to stop this.
What cannot happen is a chapter deciding to have everyone register with UIL instead of TASO while their bylaws state otherwise.
^flag
^flag In response to TexDoc, and with all due respect; with some TASO Basketball Chapters that were coerced by the good UIL Dr. and his Hurdy-gurdy monkey disquised in the form of the UIL Director of Officiating~ if the TASO Chapter continue's to operate under its original by-laws with a representative membership, then that group is entitled to the assets of the organization. The defecting members should have summarily resigned and started to organize their own new Chapter with allegiance to any entity that they so desire. I still believe that that is pursuable in the proper legal jurisdiction. If you can provide legal precedents that support your argument, then I too might become convinced. In any event, I don't feel that the University of Texas or the State of Texas, in good conscience, can allocate revenues toward fighting this issue for the UIL when there are so many school districts that are hurting and begging for revenues to functionally operate. The UIL accomplished all this by telling each representative group what it is that they wanted to hear through misleading statements and untruths. To that end, they have led a "bad faith" effort to get their way.
The agenda of the UIL ultimately calls for the abolition of the gate system for varsity football games and will soon be implementing a flat fee system that is prevalent in the other states. They will offer token lip-service in saying what they will do for the officials in Texas, but will not even begin to be the advocate for officials that TASO already is.
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I can see that if the large chapters hold their ground, the UIL will have to give in. There is no way to cover the games in Houston, Dallas, Austin, Fort Worth, and San Antonio with out those chapters as members. That being said, after the fact, Timmons has to go. There will be no way to have a working relationship between him and TASO.
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Are there any football chapters in the state of Texas who have decided to go with UIL? Or, is it too early for that type of vote??
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In response to TexDoc, and with all due respect; with some TASO Basketball Chapters that were coerced by the good UIL Dr. and his Hurdy-gurdy monkey disquised in the form of the UIL Director of Officiating~ if the TASO Chapter continue's to operate under its original by-laws with a representative membership, then that group is entitled to the assets of the organization. The defecting members should have summarily resigned and started to organize their own new Chapter with allegiance to any entity that they so desire. I still believe that that is pursuable in the proper legal jurisdiction.
I think you're correct that the chapter cannot vote to be a non-TASO chapter when their bylaws state otherwise. That was my point. A more important point is that the chapter belongs to the dues paying members of a given chapter, not to TASO, not to UIL, not to mother goose. They can change their bylaws and align with whomever they wish.
Please do not misunderstand my statement as saying that I believe any chapter should do this. If a chapter votes to change their bylaws, then no longer pay dues to TASO and to pay them only to UIL, there's really nothing that can stop them. The members of a chapter have that right, if it is done correctly.
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They can change their bylaws and align with whomever they wish.
I am not a lawyer and do not play one on TV, but if the Chapters had filed anything to be designated as a not-for profit (or any other legal entity) I suspect they did it saying they were part of TASO. So if they chooser to be something else now, wouldn't they have to redo that process as well as their internal by-laws?
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Here is your UIL Registration Form.
http://southtexasrefs.com/UILRegForm.pdf (http://southtexasrefs.com/UILRegForm.pdf)
Inquiring minds want to know....
1 - Says $25 fee for new members. I thouight they wanted $50 Are they backing off?
2 - says we will take test through the NFHS online testing system Since when does NFHS have NCAA football (with UIL exceptions) rule tests available?
3 - Apparently you can be a convicted murderer, or terrorist, or fraudster and still officiate for UIL. But if you have been convicted for having a joint in your ash tray, forget about it?
4 - If you do not have an email address you cannot officiate ??
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Interesting, especially #2.
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I would say that http://southtexasrefs.com/ is pretty much a site for a basketball chapter judging by the graphics, etc, granted there is a spot to select football, it is pretty safe to say that this stuff was thrown together, there is no way that nfhs would have an ncaa test with uil exceptions.
They also have a link discussing taso/uil http://www.southtexasrefs.com/TASOUIL.htm
Anyone have a UIL basketball chapter nearby that you could ask how the new regime has impacted their day to day officiating?
How about posting the one version of the TASO basketball test, shouldn't be to tough.
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Basketball Chapters are not "officially" registered with UIL yet. That does not go in effect until next school year. The link I posted is to the UIL form. It is not just for that chapter (which is a basketball chapter). i could have attached the form itself to the posting here except the danged form is over 3 Mb in size so cannot be attached to posts here.
I know the guys in that Chapter and so far it is business as usual for them (but they have not had to pay a dime to UIL yet)
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on the Basketball chapters, are you sure?
Permian Basin http://pbboa.org/index.htm there is a link there for an exam and it links to nfhs??
Abilene's by-laws http://abilenerefs.homestead.com/ABC-UIL_By-laws.mht
amarillo seems to be UIL, only registration doc is UIL doc. http://www.amarillorefs.com/index.htm
lubbock http://www.spczebras.org/basketball/forms.htm only form is uil and they have a link to the nfhs test on main page.
I couldn't find any in East Texas, maybe it is a West Texas thing?
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Apparently the UIL is forcing some basketball folks to register with them this year if they want state tourney games (even though this is all not supposed to start until next year)
This is what I received from a b-baller:
Our Basketball chapter voted to align with the UIL for the 2010/2011 season, however, all of our new members, some dual members, and re-instatement officials plus all of our Top 25 (if they want to be considered for 2009/2010 Regional and/or State assignments by the UIL) must be registered with the UIL this year. Although, our Chapter will be registered as a group, we do have a few that may have to submit individually. Our Chapter and a couple of others fell into a particular category, in that we had already submitted our fees and paperwork to TASO for this year, but have to register with UIL as well.
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here is another, north texas (denton) "membership" link goes to UIL form, even though still displaying taso on front page.
http://www.ntboa.org/
It looks like Abilene at least is fully UIL as their by-laws already state as such.
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^flag Regarding Houston Basketball Chapters: Houston has two chapters; a vote was taken and the leadership of the old TASO chapter took the chapter and its board members to the UIL by a vote of less than 100 of its members(for a 700 member chapter). This occurred over several meetings because the quorum requirement could never be reached and per the chapter by-laws, it kept getting cut in half with each ensuing meeting.(FYI, the president of the Houston UIL Chapter played basketball for Dr. Breighaupt when he was in high school.)
The TASO loyalist faction is still running the Houston TASO Chapter and is working games primarily on the North side of town. The Fort Bend Chapter(Sugar Land) still remains aligned with TASO.
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Just wondering if Arbitrator just might have a last name of Parker, Coit or Alexander. Either way guys, the name calling makes you look really stupid.
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Reminded of something about a kettle and a pot....
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Just wondering if Arbitrator just might have a last name of Parker, Coit or Alexander. Either way guys, the name calling makes you look really stupid.
I would rather look stupid, and be honorable, then be greedy and a turncoat.
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Yeah, Abilene has rolled and are UIL. I've already called and cussed a buddy of mine I do NCAA ball with. He's none too happy about it. I'm sure it'll be a good point of discussion over beers this Friday.
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Since we are getting down to time for the TASO (Dec. 6) and UIL (Dec. 18) meeting, how many Chapters have had a vote on whether to go or stay? At this time, East Texas has not had a vote.
I may be new here but I thought that the TASO meeting was December 18th and the UIL decided to have their meeting the same day. Can anyone give me details if the TASO meeting has changed dates AND I have to be in San Antonio THIS WEEKEND?
Thanks
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The TASO football board meeting is this weekend in Dallas. The uil meeting is s still December 18 in San Antonio.
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Are you sure, I didnt save the Email, but I swear that I got something from TASO about a President & Secretary meeting in San Antonio on December 18th and it was mandatory. Maybe I'm losing it in my old age.
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You might have, but it was changed to this weekend.
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I gotta find out whats going on. Does any one have the particulars of this so-called meeting in Dallas?
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Call your district director if your Chapter leaders do not know.
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Yeah, Abilene has rolled and are UIL. I've already called and cussed a buddy of mine I do NCAA ball with. He's none too happy about it. I'm sure it'll be a good point of discussion over beers this Friday.
I assume you are referring to thump-thump. The football chapter has made no commitment either way. For now, it's TASO.
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It is this weekend, with the title of the email, "Special TASO Football Board of Directors Meeting" I assume it went to all the Chapter Presidents and Secretaries and the board. This meeting is by nontransferable invitation only. If you have an invitation, you know where it will be held.
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Right our guys are going Saturday and we have a board meeting the following Tuesday.
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The Tyler Football chapter has a meeting with the UIL this next Monday.
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The Tyler Football chapter has a meeting with the UIL this next Monday.
Why are you doing this if the UIL meeting in San Antonio is the same Friday? Just curious.
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TASO board with pres and sec this weekend
Monday UIL rep talks to Tyler chapter (also invited East TX and NE TX chapters)
After UIL talk, same day Tyler chapter will have a meeting (Board will talk about TASO meeting as well as UIL meeting before)
Dec 18 (planned UIL with pres. and vp and sec) The chapter meeting will talk about if we are sending reps.
Going to have fun Monday pi1eOn
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Will this be a question and answer session.? Will TASO Reps be present also?
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I will be at the meeting on Sunday. I hope the meeting proves insightful. I also hope the meeting doesn't become a UIL Bash Party because this would be totally unproductive. I hope the meeting will give us some insight on what the Football Leadership plans to do. Face it. We, who want to call football in 2010 and beyond, will have to register with the UIL. It's a fact. However, will our Football Leadership have a plan to work with the UIL in making the 2010 and beyond seasons, "business as usual"?
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I will be at the meeting on Sunday. I hope the meeting proves insightful. I also hope the meeting doesn't become a UIL Bash Party because this would be totally unproductive. I hope the meeting will give us some insight on what the Football Leadership plans to do. Face it. We, who want to call football in 2010 and beyond, will have to register with the UIL. It's a fact. However, will our Football Leadership have a plan to work with the UIL in making the 2010 and beyond seasons, "business as usual"?
((()))
You are absolutely correct about not "bashing" the UIL in a meeting with them. Best to just listen. If anyone needs to ask a question, don't precede it with a bunch of war stories or opinionated comment - just ask the direct question. Listen to the answer - don't get into a debate. It will serve no purpose to agitate by being critical or abusive, because they have chosen a path and are not going to change their plan until they absolutely have to. And that reality won't strike them until about August 25, 2010, if TASO folks don't get fooled into following the UIL's path.
Keep the faith.
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Doc I agree completley. I have been high disappointed at both ends of this mess.
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Hot off the presses:
Below is a message received from TASO today.
The Texas Association of Sports Officials (TASO) today filed a lawsuit against the University Interscholastic League (UIL) to stop the UIL from arbitrarily taking over sports officiating in Texas and imposing an unauthorized tax on sports officials.
The lawsuit, filed in Travis County state district court, seeks a temporary restraining order blocking the UIL from implementing and enforcing rules it adopted on Nov. 6, 2009. The new rules prevent officials from calling sports contests unless they register and pay a $50 "fee" to the UIL.
We filed this lawsuit reluctantly. After it became clear the UIL is dead set on taking over sports officiating and creating a monopoly for itself, it was decided TASO has a responsibility to the Texas officiating community to file this lawsuit.
We will not stand idly by while the UIL threatens to destroy a system that has proudly and effectively served the students athletes, parents, fans and school districts of Texas for more than 75 years.
The key issue in the lawsuit is whether the UIL has the authority to regulate and tax sports officials, who now contract with and are paid directly by independent school districts. Further clouding the issue is the UIL's legal status; is it a private entity or a state administrative agency?
Previous court rulings concluded the UIL is a voluntary, member association of Texas public schools and noted there is nothing in state law that creates the UIL or authorizes the University of Texas to create the UIL.
Although the UIL portrays itself as a non-profit organization, there is no record of the UIL ever filing any organizational documents with the Texas Secretary of State, something all non-profits must do.
The lawsuit also asks the court:
Ř To prevent the UIL from coercing or encouraging any person to register with the UIL instead of TASO as a sports official.
Ř To bar the UIL from collecting any fee or tax from any sports official as a condition for officiating games.
This lawsuit was filed because we are hearing a lot of troubling things about what the UIL is telling our members and we would like the court to determine exactly what power the UIL has.
A copy of the complete press release will be posted in the Members Portal by Monday.
Sincerely,
George Coit
Chairman, TASO Board of Directors
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This should have been done long ago.
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Tyler you ought to have a fun meeting this weekend.
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On Monday, I sent the attached "open" letter to Tony Timmons. It is just my opinion of the state of affairs between public school sports officials (TASO and otherwise) and the UIL. Feel feel to share it with others, or dismiss it.
I am glad to see the Houston Chapter take the stand they have taken.
I am glad to see the proactive measure that TASO has taken. I only hope they won't stop on the outskirts of Baghdad, and will get to the root of the problem with the UIL - the official selection process. Yes, do what it takes to stop the UIL takeover attempt. But simply returning to staus quo won't solve anything. End the selections by schools/coaches, get the sub-varsity pay back to simple and fair (as it was in 2007); and work with the UIL to bi-laterally develop an "accountability" system that works both ways. The opprtunity is there, even if the lawsuit goes nowhere. All TASO folks have to do is decline to join the UIL; decline any UIL assignments; and decline to work with any UIL registered officials. When the UIL can't field officials to cover games in 2010-2011, they'll have no choice but to seek help from TASO. Then they'll have to agree to terms and conditions, if TASO has the courage to do what is right for all officials at all levels, in all parts of the state
Have a great holiday season. Best wishes to everyone, and best of luck to all TASO folks.
Farewell.
Robert Cameron
Lubbock, Texas
[attachment deleted by admin]
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You need to sit blackandwhite down up there and teach that boy!
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TASO has screwed up big time over the years (thanks Ray) and the UIL is tired of it..... TASO screwed up and we officials WILL ADAPT.
I have read a couple posts by you about TASO screwing up. Give some specific examples.
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Have you heard that TASO has file a lawsuit toward the UIL ^good
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I have read a couple posts by you about TASO screwing up. Give some specific examples.
I agree please give specifics as a TASO due paying official I have the need to know. If you have more than TASO screwed up. That maybe true but WHAT did they do ? If I am expected to vote, or decide to stay or Go how can I or anyone decide unless YOU give your secret information.. Heck the UIL has screwed up too. Like the Hats they gave the crew calling the Last Years State Championship Game to wear .. LOL LOL
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Under the heading of things I'd like to see but know I won't....UIL gives crews those hats this year and guys come out wearing TASO hats.
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Under the heading of things I'd like to see but know I won't....UIL gives crews those hats this year and guys come out wearing TASO hats.
:thumbup
Now, that would be great!
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Under the heading of things I'd like to see but know I won't....UIL gives crews those hats this year and guys come out wearing TASO hats.
And the TASO logo be on a regualtion referee uniform cap, not the lousy open back adjustable baseball cap that UIL gives them.
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Guys it really comes down to the fact. Do we want to call football. I say that we do. Whether it be TASO or UIL, we just all want to call football. TASO has screwed up big time over the years (thanks Ray) and the UIL is tired of it. No matter who wins this thing we all just want to call football. If you pay your dues to UIL, you will call football, and nothing changes. If you pay TASO, you sit at home. What does TASO give us that the UIL wont. Not much frankly. If the UIL wants to go to Federation (I pray they dont) they can and will and TASO cant do a thing about it. Now the pay scale is a concern, but if they cut it, whether you are a TASO guy or not they have the right to do it and just like we are now, you can choose to call football or not. Its really like a rule change, every year they change something. Does TASO have a say about it? NO and they never will. But we accept the rule book as is and we adapt. This is truly another rule change. TASO screwed up and we officials WILL ADAPT. A wise man told me years ago, DON"T EVER THINK YOU CAN'T BE REPLACED. TASO is betting we can't be replaced, but that wise man was correct, WE ALL CAN BE REPLACED AND WILL BE EVENTUALLY. Even you Houston guys. Happy Thanksgiving to all.
Agree with Doc here,,, If you don't know Ray you don't know he has worked pretty hard representing you. In all these posts there's a hint of criticism towards TASO leadership without an appropriate look at the UIL group. I hardly think the UIL could change up their leadership, institute these kinds of changes, and not be held accountable for their decisions, which is what this action has had to do.
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. Heck the UIL has screwed up too. Like the Hats they gave the crew calling the Last Years State Championship Game to wear .. LOL LOL
I can't think of one official, who wouldn't give their left nut to say " I got a Finals game and I had to wear this goofy hat". Who cares!!!!!!!!
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I am going to the meeting in Tyler tomorrow night and I'll make my decision after hearing what Timmons says, and what my chapter leadership has to say. I will say this right now. I signed up to referee in Oklahoma in 1995 and I registered with the OSSAA. They kept track of my points, my ratings, and they made a circuit around the state for annual rules clinics. They also sent out and required that their officials take both parts of the NF test in each sport. They graded them and sent our results to us in the mail. It wasn't that bad. Of course, assignments were contracted between referees and coaches...solicitation was the name of the game. I would hate to see Texas go to that type of system--although our draft system works very similarly.
If the UIL ultimately wins their way, a model like the OSSAA system would not be the end of the world. It would not discourage me from doing this activity which I love. If this simply is a tax, I will probably protest for a while. I don't see myself paying $$$ to both. I already feel like I'm giving to the UIL when I work scrimmages for free.
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blind, could you post what you hear and don't hear from your meeting tomorrow?
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I can't think of one official, who wouldn't give their left nut to say " I got a Finals game and I had to wear this goofy hat". Who cares!!!!!!!!
golly gee whiz b/w lighten up. What is your beef with TASO specifically. Do you any evidence of screw ups or do u just want change hoping or thinking you will get more or better games.
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Any news from the meeting yesterday, or is that secret and by invitation only too?
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The meeting wasn't secret. It was open. All you had to do is ask to go and you could.
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I'll be in Tyler too it is my understanding that an invitation was extended to surounding chapters.
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Link to the full lawsuit filing:
http://www.datafilehost.com/download-dd7e6a86.html
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looks like we have a good ace in the hole. i think now that the gloves are off we need to stick to our guns and stick togather on this one. yes there has been some shortcomings with in taso, but they did their homework in preparing this suit. hats off to you guys.
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Last night, the new 1204 was read to Timmons and the loophole that allows schools to use non-UIL referees was pointed out to him. He jumped around and hollered and screamed that the loophole would not stop his department. He hinted or laid out a thinly veiled threat that the loophole could go away if it caused his department too much of a problem.
It is apparent that this loophole is going to create some controversy. It, along with the pending lawsuit are TASO's only form of life support at this time. All indications are that most of the chapters across the state are not going to send their top 2-3 representatives to the meeting in the Alamodome next weekend. This will force the UIL's hand in forming new chapters statewide, thus making Timmons' job a huge challenge.
Many good questions were asked last night. The UIL plan is not going to be the end of the world and Tony makes a good point about how the professional leagues hire, train, and evaluate their officials within the same organization. The same system works in most other states and it would work in Texas if the lawsuit was struck down, or if the "organization" were broken by the guys that cross the line. Tyler has at least 3 guys that will register as "Martians" if that is what they have to do to call football next year. However, 10 crews can't call 23 ball games in Week 0 next August. Push is going to come to shove. Maybe the arbitrator will solve it, maybe the lockout will solve it, or maybe cooler heads will prevail.
I'm more confused than I was this time yesterday. TASO has not been a good organization since they left Mesquite and moved to Austin. They need a complete re-birth. UIL with Mr. Yeller in charge of officials doesn't settle my heartburn either. Maybe I'll just play more golf and take my boy to more games.
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What loophole?
I think you mentioned having been in Oklahoma previously? It is my understanding that Oklahoma officials are currently trying to change their system to get out from underneath the HS association and to form their own version of TASO.
What has TASO done wrong since the move?
As for the comparison between us and a professional league..............that is just bizarre.
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TASO has not been a good organization since they left Mesquite and moved to Austin. They need a complete re-birth. UIL with Mr. Yeller in charge of officials doesn't settle my heartburn either. Maybe I'll just play more golf and take my boy to more games.
You are correct. So far, TASO is not coming forth and offering anything new. TASO needs to get off this "Business as Usual" mentality, and start working on making things better too. They need poll the membership and see what changes we would like to see. Neither side has presented themselves well at this point.
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Many of the leaders routinely view this boaerd even if they do not post. What changes would you suggest?
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Mike,
You know how I feel about the other sports, so we're just talking football. Up until all this started with the UIL, we had no communication with the membership. An example would be the website. A great form of communication, that basically never says anything new. Even the pictures are are from 2007. There are tons of very good powerpoint training presentations, composed mostly by the membership, but whats on the website? More on-line training should be available to all officials. Last weekend I was at a quarterfinals game, and the crew was using outdated mechanics. I realize there should be better training at the chapter level, but more stress should be taken to make sure all chapters are using the same mechanics.
Bottomline, and just my opinion, I believe football should separate themselves from the other sports. Afterall, that is where the problem started.
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What exactly is the "loophole"? I am not seeing it when I read 1204.
Just curious when we ask questions about TASO, was there not a time they let us go on the field with out insurance coverage? I seem to remember back when I started conversations at the 1st of a year when our board advised us of this.
Outside of that I agree the website is one of the single best places to start making TASO better.
Also years ago they promised more around film and they had all this new equipment. This was stated at the Frisco meeting. Nothing ever came out of it.
I think ths lawsuit and ask for injunction is the last possible step. I am affraid if that fails then TASO needs to find a way to work with UIL.
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Mike,
You know how I feel about the other sports, so we're just talking football. Up until all this started with the UIL, we had no communication with the membership. An example would be the website. A great form of communication, that basically never says anything new. Even the pictures are are from 2007. There are tons of very good powerpoint training presentations, composed mostly by the membership, but whats on the website? More on-line training should be available to all officials. Last weekend I was at a quarterfinals game, and the crew was using outdated mechanics. I realize there should be better training at the chapter level, but more stress should be taken to make sure all chapters are using the same mechanics.
Bottomline, and just my opinion, I believe football should separate themselves from the other sports. Afterall, that is where the problem started.
Agree 100% with the "separation of powers" proposal.
Your other recommendations are equally good. I have seen websites of various chapters around the state and some are really incredible. Definitely worth borrowing some ideas from for the Statewide site. We could do a much better job of provisding training opportunites although I think we would all admit, the number of folks who will take advantage of same is going to be rather miniscule
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I tried to post the new 1204 on here (.pdf file) and it said it was too big. I'm at work now and don't have access to it, but if someone will tell me how to share it, I will be glad to post it tonight.
In a nutshell, there is a phrase in the new CONSTITUTION that says that if two schools mutually agree to use not UIL officials, they can do so as long as they file a report within 5 days of the game.
TASO believes that if we force their hand and they have no other choice, they will have to do this. They further speculate that if the UIL were to discipline a school for using TASO officials instead of UIL officials, the schools involved would take up the torch for us.
When the TASO office was in Mesquite and run by Blackwood, he took care of problems. The points were updated, the insurance was in place, the training by him and his staff was properly and actively disseminated. When the office was moved, there were 3 executive directors in about 5 years time. Instability at the head of the snake was the downfall of TASO. Football continued to run fairly smoothly, but the other sports did not do so well. The orgainzation, in order to survive needs to hire an executive director to lead during this battle. We need a general...someone to unite everyone and get things done.
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This part of 1204 which would have TASO out?
(b) TEXAS ASSOCIATION OF SPORTS OFFICIALS. Unless mutually decided otherwise, participant schools
shall use officials registered with the Texas Association of Sports Officials (hereafter referred to as TASO) or
the UIL in all varsity contests. If non-TASO officials are used for varsity contests, a report shall be filed with
the League office (within seven days of the contest, if possible). Exceptions:
(1) In soccer and softball and wrestling, a school must contact the UIL athletic staff and receive prior
approval before selecting and using non-TASO referees for varsity contests.
(2) It is recommended that schools use TASO registered officials for non-varsity games.
(3) Officials assigned to the playoffs shall be TASO or UIL-registered officials
If it mentions non UIL officials in the new wording then I see what you are saying.
What are the implications for the schools in this case if they use non UIL folks?
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http://uil.utexas.edu/policy/pdf/LCAmendments2009.pdf
http://www.houstonreferee.com/documents/uilpassed.pdf
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From what I have learned around here is that the coaches are siding with us. With all the statements coming from the UIL about going door to door and getting 3 mailmen and 2 Walmart greeters to work their game, it has the coaches scared. The problem is when push comes to shove the coaches don't have any power with the UIL. The power lies with the Superintendents and most of them are clueless with all this. We have to go above them and start pushing the issue with local school boards. Most of the boards around here are die hard football fans and if they become aware that they may be experiencing a lot less officiating or the thought of not having football at all you can be sure they will start getting involved with this. We just all have to stick together. Football in Texas is a huge part of the economy. With the economy already facing problems of its own, imagine if there was the threat that there won't be any games next season. Once this lawsuit gets passed around and lands on the emails of the politicians you will soon start to see some scrambling going on. Rumor has it that a canidate for Texas Governor has learned of this situation. When this all started out the UIL was firm. But I'm sure everone has seen the same "pulling back" that the UIL is having. I'm confident that they'll pull back even more as the lawsuit is in full swing. I really believe we'll be working UIL football under the guidance of TASO. The comparison of the NFL hiring its own officials is funny. NFL officials may be hired by them, but they also have a voice in matters that affect them. They have their own organization and are trained by experienced officials.
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My questions is just how united are we? Does anyone know the number of chapters that are reportedly leaving TASO? Are we working on them to get them back?
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My questions is just how united are we? Does anyone know the number of chapters that are reportedly leaving TASO? Are we working on them to get them back?
The report I received from our reps that went to Dallas was that all chapters are united. From what they gathered all chapters were in attendance. They stated it was a professional meeting and not a UIL bashing event.
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What I got from the meeting(s) last night.
Basically UIL wants to be the exec director for TASO. And Mr. Timmons is it. Now Mr. Timmons says he wants a board for each sport and will try to do what the boards says. But there is nothing to make him do so because "he is in charge." The problem I see with this is at least in TASO we can decide who our leader is. But what we get in exchange of the current system is that we have a paid UIL staff in charge. Do we get any say on who that is or someone on the legislative council? Even in a non-voting member? The TASO board does have 2 UIL members on the board (not that they stay around for meetings.)
So the choice is. Stay with TASO and be able to have a say in the leadership or go to UIL and have someone else in charge that might be able to help us with problems with schools?
One other thing I got from the meeting is that no one wants to talk about the problems with TASO or UIL that brought this about. And I for one don't know of them. Some talk about accountability issues. But why is this a problem. If there is a problem with a crew STOP picking them. The crew will fix the problem or go away, the coaches have all the power they need to fix this issue now. And according to Mr. Timmons coaches picking officials will not change.
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My view on the "accountability" deal, based on listening to Timmons, reading some material on various discussion sites, and talking to folks is that it is related to basketball....surprise, surprise. Too many coaches were being ejected in the minds of some folks and the officials who ejected them did not "answer" for the ejection while the coaches had to go to Austin. The way I read and hear what the UIL is saying they want to be able to slap down an official who ejects a coach who argued about a rule interp that is later determined to have been ruled incorrectly by the refs. This is NOT a football problem.
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Do football coaches actually get ejected in Texas? ;D
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Not like basketball, softball and baseball (and soccer) coaches.
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I've never ejected one at any level in 23 seasons. I have flagged one for a UC.
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I know it is not common in football compared to other sports but it didn't seem that uncommon to have our association in California eject a few per year, especially at the subvarsity level.
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You ain't in Callyfornia padnuh. We take the "abuse" and grow thick skins in these parts.
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I am well aware I am in another part of world believe me. Is there anything a coach can say to merit a flag here or are the officials pretty much free game? Do you give a varsity head coach more leeway than sub-varsity or assistant coaches? Chalk up another reason I like working umpire...no coach in your ear. ;D
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Ea guy has his own limit line. Nobody has ever crossed mine.
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I really did not get much new information last night. Timmons is definitely selling his product . I just don't know how many buyers he has!
The coaches and AD's may be our best bet at getting this solved as they will have a vested interest in the quality of officials.
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The report I received from our reps that went to Dallas was that all chapters are united. From what they gathered all chapters were in attendance. They stated it was a professional meeting and not a UIL bashing event.
I know that all the representatives at the meetings were united, but how they can say ALL chapters are united, when in most cases it hasn't been presented to the chapter membership?
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Was the subject of the lawsuit brought up to Mr. T during his infomercial?
I agree with a LOT of what TexDoc wrote and he said it much better than I could have, but one of my main issues with TASO is the lack of educational materials available through the TASO web portal. There is a reason that the Aloha Clinic videos attract so much attention each year that they are posted on this site, because they are GREAT learning tools, even though you have to weed through the Fed stuff here in Texas, they are still great.
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I know that all the representatives at the meetings were united, but how they can say ALL chapters are united, when in most cases it hasn't been presented to the chapter membership?
Maybe that was poor choice of words, but the feeling they got is that those in attendance, as individuals were united. It really isn't a chapter decision. Each individual can make their own choice if they want to register with UIL or not. This isn't something that the chapter votes on. Each chapter needs its leaders to provide leadership and guidance to stay firm and keep the members informed. On our chapter website we have provided all the emails that have been going out from both TASO and UIL. Being a small chapter it is quite easy to tell what the opinions of our chapter is. I do know that there are some large chapters that are already moving forward with the coaches in their area to prepare for next years drafting of the crews for their games. They are just waiting for the realignment to come out and they will continue business as usual. The coaches will use TASO regardless of what UIL says if that is their only option to have someone officiate their games. The UIL cannot prevent two teams from playing each other and they will play their games with or without the blessings of the UIL.
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I also agree that the general "accountability" problems is with baseball, softball, and soccer. With Baseball it is a simple supply and demand issue. I can work 3 little league games 5 miles from my house for food and $55 cash a game or work 2 TASO games for $90 50 miles away from my house. I will stick with Little League. PeeWee football is approaching those levels. I can call Peewee just about every night of the week in Houston for $50 cash. I am at the point now where I do not do it for the money, but 15 years ago when I started I was doing it for the money.
TASO Problems
Website is horrible (houston has a great website, San Antonio, and South plains has a great website). How hard is it to put a Forum on a website. The HUDL video was really stupid. They can do all of that for free over Youtube.
Retention of Officials is horrible. I stood up at the state meeting in College Station when they were talking about retention and said, "There is not a single 1 of you up there that will be officiating in 10 years, why are you in charge of coming up with a retention plan?" Then their great idea for increasing involvement was allowing 16 year olds to be members of the chapter but only allow them to work chains.
I will take all of TASO's issues every day of the week and twice on sunday before dealing with the UIL. To put a drivers ed instructor in charge of officials that has never officiated is a slap in our face.
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Was the subject of the lawsuit brought up to Mr. T during his infomercial?
I agree with a LOT of what TexDoc wrote and he said it much better than I could have, but one of my main issues with TASO is the lack of educational materials available through the TASO web portal. There is a reason that the Aloha Clinic videos attract so much attention each year that they are posted on this site, because they are GREAT learning tools, even though you have to weed through the Fed stuff here in Texas, they are still great.
Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the leaders at TASO wanted to put together training video of games all across Texas but none of the officials or chapters (or very few) sent any in. I've learned more about officiating on these forums and forming local study groups. That is much more than what any state organization can provide to me.
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I am well aware I am in another part of world believe me. Is there anything a coach can say to merit a flag here or are the officials pretty much free game? Do you give a varsity head coach more leeway than sub-varsity or assistant coaches? Chalk up another reason I like working umpire...no coach in your ear. ;D
A buddy of mine that uses "You gets you 15" as a rule of thumb. If they don't personalize it to the specific official they are talking to/yelling at he lets it pass. If it goes to "Ed...You suck" or "Jim...You are an idiot" they earn a UNS. If its "This crew sucks" or "This is the worst officiating I have ever seen" he ignores them.
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Ea guy has his own limit line. Nobody has ever crossed mine.
Shoot, as a B you might as well be the U...insulated ;D
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I've learned more about officiating on these forums and forming local study groups. That is much more than what any state organization can provide to me.
Jason, you, TXMike, me, DK Louie, Blue, Elvis and many others started bantering around rules situations probably over ten years ago on sites like this. I've learned so much more from these sites than from anywhere else.
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To put a drivers ed instructor in charge of officials that has never officiated is a slap in our face.
Somebody should ask him if he considers someone with a learner's permit qualified to teach Driver's Ed. Don't laugh.....I'm serious.
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A Good question a fellow chapter member asked.. A what If... What if A Coach gets ran over by an Official because the coach was in the way where he wasn't supposed to be and gets hurt and decides to sue an an official. Will the UIL defend the UIL Official or the UIL Coach.....Great question what will happen ? Is the Official gonna get the same type representation the Officials recieved in San Antonio??
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And while we are asking questions like that, let's ask where was UIL in THAT incident? Even NASO ( much as I criticize them even though I am a member) filed a brief in the case on behalf of the officials. UIL ? cricket, cricket, cricket
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What I got from the meeting(s) last night.
Basically UIL wants to be the exec director for TASO. And Mr. Timmons is it. Now Mr. Timmons says he wants a board for each sport and will try to do what the boards says. But there is nothing to make him do so because "he is in charge." The problem I see with this is at least in TASO we can decide who our leader is. But what we get in exchange of the current system is that we have a paid UIL staff in charge. Do we get any say on who that is or someone on the legislative council? Even in a non-voting member? The TASO board does have 2 UIL members on the board (not that they stay around for meetings.)
So the choice is. Stay with TASO and be able to have a say in the leadership or go to UIL and have someone else in charge that might be able to help us with problems with schools?
One other thing I got from the meeting is that no one wants to talk about the problems with TASO or UIL that brought this about. And I for one don't know of them. Some talk about accountability issues. But why is this a problem. If there is a problem with a crew STOP picking them. The crew will fix the problem or go away, the coaches have all the power they need to fix this issue now. And according to Mr. Timmons coaches picking officials will not change.
^flag QAfta has pretty much spelled out what Mr. T's intent is and that is to be the good UIL Dr.'s dictatorial ruler in absentia and it is apparent by his arrogance that he is not going to give that moniker up without some kind of fight. It would be an insult to my 30+ years of football officiating experience to have someone as shallow as Mr. T is in an executive leadership role and I firmly believe that we should let the TASO lawsuit take care of things on its own merits. There appear to be enough legal conundrums addressed within the filing that, given the lengthy amount of time that it would take it to come to trial and the subsequent number of years that the appellate process would likely take, that TASO could be well-functioning for the forseeable future. The bottom line is that TASO offers us true representation and Dr. Breighthaupt and Mr. Timmons do not. It's really that elementary! The UIL's aim is for nothing more than total control and money! That would be their definition of "accountability!"
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here and take a shot at this one - the chapter president, or at least some of the secretaries where Timmons spoke last night, are probably going to call a playoff game this friday - They have probably had a playoff game every Friday AND/OR Saturday throughout the playoffs - you were probably all told it was "coaches choice." They are going to protect their dynasty - no different anywhere else in the World - UIL/University of Texas will not lose a court battle - not enough money in Texas to beat them - watch your backs new guys - these same officials WILL be on the field next year - regardless of what smoke they are trying to sell.
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My complaint is that we are closing communication with an organization that we must work hand-in-hand with. The UIL is the governing body for Texas Jr. High and High School sports. Yes, TASO is the standard by which all high school officiating associations are measured. I just want to know what the UIL is planning before we close the door. But, I guess we just need to stay quiet and let those in the power positions tell us what to do. Treating us like "mushrooms".
I guess when everyone goes out this weekend and works a semi-final or final that these are all TASO games and not UIL.
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here and take a shot at this one - the chapter president, or at least some of the secretaries where Timmons spoke last night, are probably going to call a playoff game this friday - They have probably had a playoff game every Friday AND/OR Saturday throughout the playoffs - you were probably all told it was "coaches choice." They are going to protect their dynasty - no different anywhere else in the World - UIL/University of Texas will not lose a court battle - not enough money in Texas to beat them - watch your backs new guys - these same officials WILL be on the field next year - regardless of what smoke they are trying to sell.
Basketball officials are already starting to see the smoke Timmons is blowing. There were 89 some odd officials who were promised trips to the state tournament and apparently there are only enough spots for 40 something. Not sure on the exact numbers but it was clearly more promises than there were games. Rest assured you can take all the chapters and they can all go UIL, but if there is even one that does not who will cover those games. My chapter alone has around 30 schools. I don't even know of a single official who is going to register with UIL. None of the surrounding chapters will be able to cover our schools. UIL will get some officials in and what do you do if you are displeased with the leader. You can't vote him out. According to the lawuit the UIL doesn't even exist according to Texas law.
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Got my Honigs Holiday 2009 catalog in the mail yesterday. On page 40 under Special Programs they are only selling TASO hats now. And those are for sale "While Supplies Last". Looks like I will be taking my business elsewhere from now on.
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here and take a shot at this one - the chapter president, or at least some of the secretaries where Timmons spoke last night, are probably going to call a playoff game this friday - They have probably had a playoff game every Friday AND/OR Saturday throughout the playoffs - you were probably all told it was "coaches choice." They are going to protect their dynasty - no different anywhere else in the World - UIL/University of Texas will not lose a court battle - not enough money in Texas to beat them - watch your backs new guys - these same officials WILL be on the field next year - regardless of what smoke they are trying to sell.
Well that crew, you mention also worked tha 5A State Championship game last year so I guess just maybe they might be a pretty good crew and have coaches wanting repeat performances.
After last years state final, one crew member retired and that crew replaced him with a second year official. Alas, these new guys just don't have a chance in our horrible system. ;D
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Everyone has a chance RickWts - (such as the 2 year guy on that crew) thats the point I'm trying to make. Why would the 5A championship caliber crew you describe throw all that away over $50? I know the argument has been made its about principle, not money - but, in my opinion, I just don't get it. And yes, I have principle, yes I don't think UIL handled this well as far as football goes, and yes Timmons comes across as a blow hard on YouTube. This crew has obvioulsy worked very hard, are very good, and have standing and respect in your chapter. Do you honestly believe that they will not sign with UIL IF that is the ONLY way they will be able to call a varsity contest? The point I was trying to make with the "watch your back" comment was that the new guys look up to these veterans - as much as you might think they do not - they will follow their lead. If they are told to boycott, strike, work stop, whatever - by these veterans, some will listen and do as told. If the same folks saying this are going to register with UIL - the new guys get screwed.
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Well in fact you would be wrong. One of the crew in fact told all of the members after our meeting with Timmons that this was an individual decision that we all should make.
That being said, I do not think UIL is right and I do not think TASO is 100% right on this deal. I hate being told I have to do something, kinda goes against my grain. I also am not real crazy about the UIL approach and spokesman. On the other hand, I do not believe for a minute that TASO is the end all, be all.
I sincerely hope that some type of compromise can be reached where TASO football ( or whatever the hell we want to call it) and UIL work together for what is best for the schools ( the kids), the officials and the coaches. Perhaps TASO football registers, trains, and keeps records for accountability to UIL. UIL provides the insurance, background checks, etc. Dues are split accordingly through UIL.
If we do reach some type of compromise, then the next week I would like to see a statewide meeting, not a convention, of TASO football where we the members tell the board to get their act together on training. I am the training officer for our chapter and you know what i got from TASO about training........ zero, zip, nada. Everything I got was scrounged from another source. TASO is supposed to be about training, if that is so, they need to do it!
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Well in fact you would be wrong. One of the crew in fact told all of the members after our meeting with Timmons that this was an individual decision that we all should make.
That being said, I do not think UIL is right and I do not think TASO is 100% right on this deal. I hate being told I have to do something, kinda goes against my grain. I also am not real crazy about the UIL approach and spokesman. On the other hand, I do not believe for a minute that TASO is the end all, be all.
I sincerely hope that some type of compromise can be reached where TASO football ( or whatever the hell we want to call it) and UIL work together for what is best for the schools ( the kids), the officials and the coaches. Perhaps TASO football registers, trains, and keeps records for accountability to UIL. UIL provides the insurance, background checks, etc. Dues are split accordingly through UIL.
If we do reach some type of compromise, then the next week I would like to see a statewide meeting, not a convention, of TASO football where we the members tell the board to get their act together on training. I am the training officer for our chapter and you know what i got from TASO about training........ zero, zip, nada. Everything I got was scrounged from another source. TASO is supposed to be about training, if that is so, they need to do it!
Excellent post Rick. You sound like a reasonable person and a benefit to your chapter. Both sides need to compromise - flaming letters and emails will get you nowhere. Good luck.
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I think Rick makes a point and I like his thinking football is such a different animal than the other sport. Texas does use NCAA with UIL exceptions. As far as i know the other sports use federation rules. The issues as I see it came about due to issues with the other sports more so than football. I hope that UIL and TASO Football can organize men without an agenda our personal pride to come together and present what is important to their group and compromise for the betterment of all. If its about accountability Officials have no problem with that. The ejected coach doesn't have to go to Austin. Why can't we do like the Unemployment Office does Have the Coach(s) and Official(s) have a conference call with whomever is on the disciplinary board ideally comprised of equal numbers of UIL and TASO members have both sides give their side of the story if witnesses are needed in extraordinary cases they can be called and questioned too. This would take around 30 minutes or less in most cases. Then that board decide on the action needed. That would be fair to all. This may be far fetched but we need men/women with open minds to come together and fix something that is not so broke. And yes it is time for TASO members to take the actions stand up and be heard to improve our side just as UIL must do the same to improve there side..
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Going to Austin is a myth.
I personally know a baseball coach who got tossed from a game. He went to his Regional Service Center and sat before a board of Sups. They scolded him, backed the umpire who was very aggressive and unapproachable (I SAW THE VIDEO), and sent him away with his official UIL reprimand. His name was in The Leaguer once and life proceeded as normal. It drives me bananas to hear coaches pull the "full time" vs "part time" card and talk about their careers being ruined with a trip to Austin. It's mythical!
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Dr B and Mr T are both coaches (b-ball no less). Don't know about Cliff O but not sure he is as involved as the other 2 in this.
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What is the Leaguer? I have heard that term before but have no clue what it means.
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Uil's newsletter
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Where we you?
It's interesting to read all of the comments about how bad or good or whatever TASO "is".
My question to all of you is "where were you when we needed you?".
As a volunteer organization, we work to change mechanics, apply for new UIL exceptions, manage the TASO office, look for opportunities to train, look for ways to make things better, and/or just try to make it through the year with officials that call EVERY foul or officials that won't enforce the rules.
Where were you when we asked for training material?
Where were you when we asked for suggestions for the mechanics manual?
Where were you when we held the State Meeting in McAllen?
The simple point is, 98% of the football officials in my chapter, or yours, don't give a damn about anything other than their schedule. They don't get involved in the Chapter, and they damned sure don't get involved in the state organization.
So, B&W go ahead and complain about Ray and the TASO Board. It doesn't matter. In the end, when football starts in the spring or in August, the officials will ask "what's my schedule" and won't know that the UIL took over; or failed in a take over. Nor will they care.
If you want to help, get involved. Ask how you can help and help.
If you don't, just get the hell out of the way.
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Where were you when we asked for training material?
>I have always supplied training/mechanics inputs when asked, and sometimes when not asked. I held the umpire sessions at a state meeting several years ago. I applied to be a TASO clinician but never received a response. At least I applied.
Where were you when we asked for suggestions for the mechanics manual?
>I have provided input.
Where were you when we held the State Meeting in McAllen?
?Wasn't there. I had a conflict with the date. This is the first one I've missed in a long time.
I think you're preaching to the choir with most of the folks here.
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Gee EX, I missed those emails from the TASO leadership crying for help. If it weren't for Refstripes.com (Doc & TXMike), many of us wouldn't have even known there was a process for submitting suggestions. I did submit suggestions, they were rejected--nothing was ever communicated as to why my idea was bad or why the current mechanic was better. Had there been good communication from the TASO leadership, these committees that aim to serve as an arm of the board might have been full of good ideas. Somehow, only certain district directors and their cronies get those calls to serve I guess. Many good ideas are out there in the hearts and minds of officials who don't know the system or have certainly no realistic chance to get elected to a TASO director position...so they die on the vine because there isn't and hasn't been a two-way pipeline for change in this organization. Every year, new people run for office in the local chapter and don't win. You can't change the constitution and put in term limits because it requires an unreal number of members (75%) who are way to spread out to actually show up at the same time for a meeting. The political system at every level is locked down by the good ol' boy network. It isn't very friendly to new people or new ideas!
I work a lot of 2A football for $75 game checks (thats $750 over the course of a season for the mathematically challenged). A plane ticket to Harlingen, a weekend rental car and a $75/night hotel room was a little more than I could bear. Maybe it was a dumb decision to hold the meeting in McAllen! Of course, if you just wanted the "good ol boys" to get together for their annual golf game and pow wow, the $500 trip is only a couple of game checks for the big dogs that run the show. Maybe El Paso next year?
I really want there to be a TASO, but I'm not giving TASO any more of my money to be a status quo organization. The UIL guys are formulating a plan...it's not perfect and probably never will be, but as TASO is now fighting for their lives, I'd like to see them more on Offense than Defense. What is TASO 2011 going to look like guys? It's only 1 month until I have to make a decision. Convince me please!
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Where we you?
It's interesting to read all of the comments about how bad or good or whatever TASO "is".
My question to all of you is "where were you when we needed you?".
Lets see now where was I... I doubt anyone in my chapter has brought in more young officials then I have over the past 5 years. I am personally responsible for atleast 22 new members joining the association, and retaining 17 of them as of this past season.
As a volunteer organization, we work to change mechanics, apply for new UIL exceptions, manage the TASO office, look for opportunities to train, look for ways to make things better, and/or just try to make it through the year with officials that call EVERY foul or officials that won't enforce the rules.
I too have sent in many suggestions on Mechanics changes, I got up and spoke at the College Station state meeting about the joke of a retention program TASO state has.
Where were you when we asked for training material?
Where were you when I asked for a suggestion on setting up the website to accept evaluation cards on-line to keep track of the coaches that actually turn them in and to track crews
Where were you when we asked for suggestions for the mechanics manual?
Where were you when we held the State Meeting in McAllen?
I was no where near McAllen thats a fact jack.
The simple point is, 98% of the football officials in my chapter, or yours, don't give a damn about anything other than their schedule. They don't get involved in the Chapter, and they damned sure don't get involved in the state organization.
I suggest you find higher quality of men to become officials if that is all you have. Don't get me wrong in Houston it is only about 35% but that is a lot more then 2 %
So, B&W go ahead and complain about Ray and the TASO Board. It doesn't matter. In the end, when football starts in the spring or in August, the officials will ask "what's my schedule" and won't know that the UIL took over; or failed in a take over. Nor will they care.
If you want to help, get involved. Ask how you can help and help.
What makes you think we don't ask to get involved. This is your first post but I bet you have watched from the shadows for a while. Why did you not get involved before tonight? I learn more on here and the old gmcgriff site then I learn off of the TASO state website that is for sure.
If you don't, just get the hell out of the way.
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Gee EX, I missed those emails from the TASO leadership crying for help. If it weren't for Refstripes.com (Doc & TXMike), many of us wouldn't have even known there was a process for submitting suggestions. I did submit suggestions, they were rejected--nothing was ever communicated as to why my idea was bad or why the current mechanic was better. Had there been good communication from the TASO leadership, these committees that aim to serve as an arm of the board might have been full of good ideas. Somehow, only certain district directors and their cronies get those calls to serve I guess. Many good ideas are out there in the hearts and minds of officials who don't know the system or have certainly no realistic chance to get elected to a TASO director position...so they die on the vine because there isn't and hasn't been a two-way pipeline for change in this organization. Every year, new people run for office in the local chapter and don't win. You can't change the constitution and put in term limits because it requires an unreal number of members (75%) who are way to spread out to actually show up at the same time for a meeting. The political system at every level is locked down by the good ol' boy network. It isn't very friendly to new people or new ideas!
I work a lot of 2A football for $75 game checks (thats $750 over the course of a season for the mathematically challenged). A plane ticket to Harlingen, a weekend rental car and a $75/night hotel room was a little more than I could bear. Maybe it was a dumb decision to hold the meeting in McAllen! Of course, if you just wanted the "good ol boys" to get together for their annual golf game and pow wow, the $500 trip is only a couple of game checks for the big dogs that run the show. Maybe El Paso next year?
I really want there to be a TASO, but I'm not giving TASO any more of my money to be a status quo organization. The UIL guys are formulating a plan...it's not perfect and probably never will be, but as TASO is now fighting for their lives, I'd like to see them more on Offense than Defense. What is TASO 2011 going to look like guys? It's only 1 month until I have to make a decision. Convince me please!
OK, let's go back. TASO FB has asked for training tapes/dvd etc for four straight years. If you didn't get that message, go back and talk to your President, Secretary, and/or District Director.
McAllen? My flight cost me $178 round trip. Share a room or not, there and back for under $300 all tax deductible.
Go to the UIL. Spend your money like you want. Follow your conscious. Everyone else will follow the money.
TexDoc, you're right, some of it is preaching to the choir, but of all the posters here, only a couple give enough of a damn to help. But, they'll damned sure bitch and moan.
And that's at the chapter and state level.
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oh yeah. mcallen was the only spot that offered to have the meeting.
AND it was a damned good meeting.
no good old boys. no golf. no drinking. just an offer for a meeting, a viable venue, and a willing chapter.
if you don't like it, take it up with your chapter leadership. they could've bid on it and we could've been in wherever you are.
damn. that's an idea! get involved!!
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UT-Ex.........Keep posting.....you are making the UIL look better and better after everyone of your posts. TASO does not give a damn about the little guys (chapters) and they never will. Its about keeping the good ole boy system running and helping the TASO leaders get to the next level or conference.............period.
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UT-Ex.........Keep posting.....you are making the UIL look better and better after everyone of your posts. TASO does not give a damn about the little guys (chapters) and they never will. Its about keeping the good ole boy system running and helping the TASO leaders get to the next level or conference.............period.
Now that's funny right there.
TASO Football President, Immediate Past President and the President before him are all past the prime of their careers, all 30+ years of service to Texas high school football, none of them ever worked above the ASC/Lone Star level, two of them only work on the field part time. Yes sir, the hundreds of hours each of them has given to TASO has really fueled their careers. You don’t have a clue.
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UT-Ex.........Keep posting.....you are making the UIL look better and better after everyone of your posts. TASO does not give a damn about the little guys (chapters) and they never will. Its about keeping the good ole boy system running and helping the TASO leaders get to the next level or conference.............period.
Blackandwhite1 It really seems to me that the reason you think your chapter (and TASO) doesn't give a damn about you is probably because you don't give a damn about it (them).
You really sound really similar to a couple of enlisted guys in my AF unit who used to bitch and moan about not get promoted, yet didn't study for promotion tests, showed no motivation to learn their jobs to the next level, no esprit de corps or pride in their unit, volunteered for nothing, and yet were the first to complain about anyone who got what they thought was a 'good deal' while not wanting to recognize it as a reward for service above self. Yeah, you sound exactly like you are one of those guys.
If you want to walk to UIL, then do it. After all, everything is all about you.
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UT-Ex.........Keep posting.....you are making the UIL look better and better after everyone of your posts. TASO does not give a damn about the little guys (chapters) and they never will. Its about keeping the good ole boy system running and helping the TASO leaders get to the next level or conference.............period.
^flag
blackandwhite1: You are the stereotypical type of official that the good UIL Dr. and his Dancing Monkey wants in order to further their goals; someone who hasn't really achieved that much in their career that they can "use" in their quest to disassemble TASO by pitting the small chapters against the large chapters, the less experienced officials against the highly seasoned veteran officials, and if need be, by racial profiling. All this is being done in the name of ultimately lowering our game compensation to the rediculously low levels found in the Federation states. I have loved every moment of my 30 year career in Texas and I would absolutely love to see all the younger officials be able to exceed my accomplishments. Just as I was once a young official, I tried my best to surround myself with as many of the hard-working veterans that I could. I even emulated what they did for me: I worked as many subvarsity games that I could to try to teach them as best I could, about the rules, mechanics, and the other intangible lessons of calling football. SOA and TASO offered me that medium. In a sentence, what happened to the good old-fashioned work ethic?
I fully expect you to be with Mr. T at his Invitational December 19th Soiree in San Antonio. Enjoy the games and the UIL fellowship, blackandwhite1; I really believe that the UIL has you squarely where they want you!
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Dr B and Mr T are both coaches (b-ball no less). Don't know about Cliff O but not sure he is as involved as the other 2 in this.
TXMike,
Just to clarify Dr. B was a B-ball coach and Timmons was a B-ball official (heard he claimed to be a former NBA official in Tyler on Monday night). Cliff Odenwald was a long time football coach. Was one time head coach @ McMurry and finished his coaching career at Naaman Forest HS in Garland. After a few years as Assistant AD in Garland ISD was named AD for Plano ISD before going to UIL. Of all involved he is the one I respect the most and the one I am most disappointed in. He has always been a class act. Unfortunately it looks like he has been pushed to the back in favor of the drivers ed teacher. He has too much integrity to play their game but apparently has to stay silent. I hope he finds a way out of there.
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Its just so funny how many of you guys assume you think you know who I am. You are not even close. I have officiated well over 25 years consecutively. The last 10 plus here in Texas. Guys I am an elected member of my little chapter. My guys work extremely hard and are routinely rewarded with just a handful of playoff games. I am in front of my chapter every single meeting, I work hard to find educational material that will not only teach them something but also keep their attention. I too have been in the ASC/Lone Star conferences, but it just doesn't mean as much to me today as that it did back then. But I know why the guys want to keep TASO around. It is so that they can move up either by conference or by the fact it might get them in to the replay booth, they all have their motives. But each and every year it is getting worse, training materials are scarce, website sucks and the big chapters suck up all the gravy. Guess I'm just getting tired of telling the boys, It will be your turn someday. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones, when I was in San Antonio, they treated me fairly but they knew I was coming after their positions....but I learned a lot from those guys, moved the the metroplex and those guys wont even give you the time of day, I suspect its like that in most of the larger chapters, But I also know they have to be worriednabout their 5 year chain workers crossing the line and getting games. They will, have no doubt abut . Good luck next year BIG BOYS..... we little brothers want to work football and make no doubt WE WILL.
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TXMike,
Just to clarify Dr. B was a B-ball coach and Timmons was a B-ball official (heard he claimed to be a former NBA official in Tyler on Monday night). Cliff Odenwald was a long time football coach. Was one time head coach @ McMurry and finished his coaching career at Naaman Forest HS in Garland. After a few years as Assistant AD in Garland ISD was named AD for Plano ISD before going to UIL. Of all involved he is the one I respect the most and the one I am most disappointed in. He has always been a class act. Unfortunately it looks like he has been pushed to the back in favor of the drivers ed teacher. He has too much integrity to play their game but apparently has to stay silent. I hope he finds a way out of there.
Was just going off some things I had read in the past. From UIL Leaguer:
Tony Timmons, Assistant Athletic Director – Timmons started at the UIL in August and has already hit the ground running working with high school officials across Texas.
Timmons will oversee the officials division of the UIL and will be in charge of registering officials for all UIL athletic activities. His duties also include selecting officials for all playoff and state championship games.
Over his career, Timmons has officiated athletic events at all levels, from high school to professional leagues. He also has worked as a coach and educator in the Texas public school system.
From alpineavalanche.com:
Timmons, a graduate of Wellman High School, received his undergraduate and master’s degrees from Sul Ross. He coached at Valentine, Alpine and Fort Davis. He has officiated sporting events from high school to professional leagues. Although Timmons has moved to Austin to fulfill his UIL duties, he will continue to operate the Harvard Hotel and H.E. Sproul Ranch in Fort Davis with his wife, Kerith
SHOW ME THE MONEY!
There has been discussion related to the financial windfall that will befall UIL if this attempt succeeds. So maybe we should look at the UIL and their money.
This is their financial report for07-08: http://www.uil.utexas.edu/policy/pdf/07_08financial_report.pdf
Jumping out at me -
1 - Under membership fees there is no indication any other judge/official involved in UIL events is charged Only the schools have to pay a membership fee
2 - in the 07-08 year they received a grant from TEA for 3 million to do steroid testing.But they only spent 1.4 million. That left them with 1.6 million They threw that in with all their other income and expenses so even though the end of year showed them up 1.3 million, take out the steroid money and they lost 300,000. The steroid money can only be usedfor steroid testing. (the $750,000 they stand to gain from us would obviously be very beneficial)
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Some info from our District Director re the meeting in Dallas:
. All chapter presidents and secretaries (or representative) from across the state was present. The purpose of the meeting was to provide information on our stance regarding UIL and obtain feedback from the representatives.
The meeting began with a quick update by Gary Schumann, TASO attorney representing us in the lawsuit against UIL. This is the same attorney that represented our officials in their lawsuit. He knows how and why we operate and will do a great job for us.
Bud Alexander then gave us some history of TASO. Some 37 years ago the UIL asked for a state organization to represent football officials. Southwest Football Officials Association (SFOA) was born and existed until the late 80’s at which time there was a consolidation of all sport officials into Southwest Officials Assn. (SOA). As different sports grew in our school systems there became a need for a larger organization, Texas Association of Sports Officials (TASO). All of these had the input and support of the UIL.
From the beginning everyone involved agreed that the best structure for Texas athletic events was equivalent to a 3 legged stool, UIL, Schools, and TASO. As this implies each would operate separately and if one was removed, the stool would fall. We strongly believe we are at this point now.
Mr. Alexander also provided details of “how did we get here”. To summarize, since 2007 there have been many meetings between TASO and the UIL They involved, among other things, our proposal to amend 1204 pay and mileage issues at the request of UIL. We made four presentations with no response until we heard “we (UIL) got you the largest pay increase in years”. Basically, it was the proposal presented by TASO. Also, UIL was upset because we would not provide them with our member database. Since this database contained sensitive personal information, we were advised by legal counsel not to comply.
When Mr. Alexander finished, the floor was opened to the chapter representatives. All of the chapters indicated they were going to proceed with “business as usual”. Each will carry out their drafts (picks) as in the past and present all official that are in good standing, as defined by their local chapter, to the coaches. All of the chapters will collect dues and submit them to TASO by the February 1, 2010 deadline. Mr. Parker (President) indicated a member could request a refund of their state due and they will be paid. A deadline for these requests has not been established at this time.
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Good luck next year BIG BOYS..... we little brothers want to work football and make no doubt WE WILL.
Per UIL rules you must still be a member of a TASO chapter to receive assignments. Now the big question. Who is going to assign you? I don't know the bylaws of your chapter, but most bylaws include a statement that in order to receive assignments you must be a member in good standing. Paying your chapter and TASO dues is typically part of the qualifier to be a member in good standing. So, you may want to start supporting TASO by paying your dues if you want to receive an assignment.
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Do you really want The MAN looking over your shoulder ^no
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Do you really want The MAN looking over your shoulder ^no
If you are somewhere where THE MAN does not already look over your shoulder, please enlighten me.
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Because this is becoming such a personal and intense issue, because all opinions are important, and because not everyone on this board knows everyone else by their username, would anyone, besides me, be willing to start posting under his/her real name?
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Because this is becoming such a personal and intense issue, because all opinions are important, and because not everyone on this board knows everyone else by their username, would anyone, besides me, be willing to start posting under his/her real name?
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
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Because this is becoming such a personal and intense issue, because all opinions are important, and because not everyone on this board knows everyone else by their username, would anyone, besides me, be willing to start posting under his/her real name?
I always have! yEs:
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Because this is becoming such a personal and intense issue, because all opinions are important, and because not everyone on this board knows everyone else by their username, would anyone, besides me, be willing to start posting under his/her real name?
Randy, I don't mind, but what is the purpose? Who is wanting to know?
Gary Galyon
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Actually there are a couple of reasons. Those of us who have been around for a while pretty much know who the TASO sympathizers and detractors are, and we know who has a vested interest in perpetuating the stats quo, and we readers should be able to gusge a poster's credibility when read their opinions. Also, there some who merely read this cite just to gauge who is saying what. I don't see any harm in us coming out from behind veil of anonymity. Afterall, we are ALL in this for the kids, aren't we?
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who the TASO sympathizers and detractors are, and we know who has a vested interest in perpetuating the stats quo, and we readers should be able to gusge a poster's credibility
So we can get rid of those who don't have opinions exactly like ours. :!#
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Afterall, we are ALL in this for the kids, aren't we?
Randy, are you a coach?
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Randy Dale is a longtime official from Abilene.
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Wish he were still here, but he's now in central Texas, laid up with a blown knee.
Don Morran - Abilene (since 1970)
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Randy Dale is a longtime official from Abilene.
Thanks
I'm wondering why the phrase is used as a frame for the discussion. It gives the impression anyone who has a differing opinion is "anti-children" and is one that is often used by coaches.
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Because this is becoming such a personal and intense issue, because all opinions are important, and because not everyone on this board knows everyone else by their username, would anyone, besides me, be willing to start posting under his/her real name?
Ditto's Randy - I'm in.....
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Thanks, Mark. I look forward to reading your thoughts and opinions.
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Cool, so what are you two going to talk about first?
The rapid decline of TASO as an organization? The distrust harbored by many members for their officers? The disinterest of many TASO FB Board members for anything "TASO" or "football" for all but a few hours in the spring and a free trip to the state meeting? The attitude of several chapters within the state that it doesn't matter what TASO does or says, we're doing it our way? The lack of consistent communication from the TAASO FB Board? The on-going "promise" for training materials? The "joke" of having a soliciting charge levied and 'investigated'? Or the fact that well over 85% of officials in the state couldn't give a damn about anything other than their schedule.
In it for the "kids"? Really? Name one person. Everyone is in it for themselves and if they say anything else they're lying to you and themselves. If it's for the "kids", we wouldn't charge fees, it'd all be charitable donations.
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First off welcome to the group of new guys on the board and specifically on this topic. I'm curious what brought you here, was it this topic?
Best regards,
brad
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No Brad,
It wasn't just this topic. I never lowered myself to respond to anyone here. Other places? Yes.
I've talked to others, posted through others, encouraged others, and....
I've been around Texas high school football officiating for 30 years. I've officiated several years in every position in 5-man mechanics in varisty games. And, I've had my run at college football too.
I've been involved in the organization at the chapter and state level.
I just got tired of the crap that most post when they have no idea how chapter or state organizations run.
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In it for the "kids"? Really? Name one person. Everyone is in it for themselves and if they say anything else they're lying to you and themselves. If it's for the "kids", we wouldn't charge fees, it'd all be charitable donations.
I will disagree with you. I was an active player when I went up to the crew at the end of the game thinking that they had also worked hard and it is good that they were there to let us play.
They told me how to get started, and my motivation was to help to develop the game and sportsmanship (which I find lacking) here in Germany.
I might not officiate as much, but I would still do it without getting paid.
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No Brad,
It wasn't just this topic. I never lowered myself to respond to anyone here. Other places? Yes.
I've talked to others, posted through others, encouraged others, and....
I've been around Texas high school football officiating for 30 years. I've officiated several years in every position in 5-man mechanics in varisty games. And, I've had my run at college football too.
I've been involved in the organization at the chapter and state level.
I just got tired of the crap that most post when they have no idea how chapter or state organizations run.
But you've chosen to lower yourself now? Wow, I'm honored.
Best regards,
Brad
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** Just received from UIL **
Everyone,
This is a reminder to all football officials and chapter officers concerning the UIL Football Meeting that will take place at the Alamodome in Meeting Room K on Friday, December 18th at 6:00 pm.
3 officers of each recognized football chapter in Texas are invited to attend. If any or all of the three officers cannot make the meeting, a replacement of any chapter member may attend in their absence. It is very important that every chapter in Texas have representation at this meeting.
If there are any questions concerning who might be in attendance from your chapter please contact your local officers or the UIL office to RSVP.
Information concerning the registration process for 2010-11 will be discussed and football officiating handbooks will be given to each representative at the meeting. The registration process begins January 15, 2010.
Sincerely,
--
Tony Timmons
UIL Assistant Athletic Director/Officials
512-471-5883
ttimmons@austin.utexas.edu
www.uil.utexas.edu
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I am sure the City of San Antonio is most appreciative of UIL scheduling this meeting on Friday evening so the throngs of folks who come to town for the meeting will get to stay the night and pay into the city's hotel tax fund and sales tax fund. :thumbup
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Don't forget to mention that after this meeting we can all go down to the riverwalk and have a few cocktails. Gotta love that!!
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Here's an idea - true stimulus - spend all day at the Riverwalk and let the 4 people who show up for the meeting tell you later what was said.... If I were going to be in S.A. at the time, that's what I'd do.......
javascript:void(0);
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I just heard that a letter from the UIL is going out to superintendents of schools giving them an update that the UIL has secured counsel to defend the lawsuit filed by TASO. If you have any relationship with a superintendent of a school it would be good to drop them a note that if they would support the current system using TASO officials. The UIL has called a special meeting of the Legislative council for January 14, 2010 to consider whether additional modifications should be made ( which I read to mean keeping TASO in 1204).
Sounds like somebody has gotten the attention of the UIL yEs:
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Speaking of the aforementioned letter. Here's the copy I received:
Dear Superintendents,
The Texas Association of Sports Officials (TASO) filed suit against the UIL on December 3, 2009. TASO does not want officials to be required to register with the UIL. In its pleadings, TASO questions the validity of the rule-making authority of the UIL and the Legislative Council.
The University of Texas Office of Legal Affairs, headed by UT Vice President Patti Ohlendorf and Associate Vice President Leo Barnes, have spent considerable time with Dr. Cousins and myself over the last month as they reviewed a complaint filed with the University by TASO. They have developed a considerable understanding of the issues involved and the positions of the parties.
The University has agreed that we should hire outside counsel for this litigation. We have retained the services of the Law Firm of Lucius Bunton to defend the UIL. Mr. Bunton and his team, including Jack Crier, have represented the UIL in prior cases and have excellent knowledge of our organization.
Kevin Heyburn of the Office of the Attorney General also is on the litigation team. Of course, Patti and Leo will continue to be involved as in-house counsel and legal liaison with outside counsel.
Chairman Rick Reedy has advised us that he is calling a Special Meeting of the Legislative Council to allow interested parties to testify on the previously approved amendment in Section 1204 of the UIL Constitution and Contest Rules. The Legislative Council also may consider whether additional modifications should be made.
The meeting will be called for January 14th 2010. If you have any questions regarding this meeting, please feel free to contact the office.
Charles Breithaupt
Executive Director
University Interscholastic League
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I have been lurking on this board for a little bit of time now and have really learned alot about officiating football through the many people who have posted on here. I have completed 3 seasons of football in having been on a crew the last two seasons and in my first season, I had the opportunity and priveledge in working 6 varsity assignments. I have really come to enjoy 6 man football particularly, but overall, the experience has been great and rewarding until all this mess has come up.
I have been to the last two state meetings, served as a sub-varsity assignor this season and hopefully many to come, and was elected by my peers as an area rep for our chapter. I simply wanted to get involved with the hopes of making a difference and have been given the great honor of being in a place in which to do so.
I say all of that to say this, the feud between the UIL and TASO makes me wonder who this is all about anyways. The UIL, who should be representing schools and students, seems to be all about itself and the almighty dollar. They will never, ever, get rich off of officials. TASO on the other hand has found its last resort to be a lawsuit in hopes that it will postpone the "takeover" by Mr. Timmons.
Without knowing all the details, I dont see a winner in this at all. The relationship between TASO and UIL will be scarred forever and as it now stands, there are only a very few, errr, 1 person that would be willing to call under the direction of Mr. Timmons.
What are my best chances of being successful in officiating football and hopefully one day, living a dream that so many have accomplished? Do I just cross my fingers in hopes that it comes true? Please allow me to do what I love and officiate without having to be registered to a money grubbing organization that could care less about my goals and dreams.
David Maddron
Northeast Texas Chapter of Football Officials
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David,
Thanks for sharing. I think a lot of guys share your sentiments. Here's hoping cooler heads will prevail on both sides, as resorting to name calling is going to do none of us any good.
I was wondering if some from our organization should attend the meeting in San Antonio tomorrow for at least two reasons: 1) just to hear what the UIL has to say, and 2) sorta take the high road in the dispute by adopting the position that it doesn't cost anything to listen. I've had three years of experience twelve times, and I'm as perplexed by all this as you are.
I'm hoping our San Antonio based experts like TXMike and TexDoc can let us all know what happens.
Randy
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Randy,
Thanks for your thoughts and service to officiating over these many years.
Our Chapter will not be sending any represetatives to the meeting. Mr. Timmons has made it clear that any Chapter officers attending the meeting will be required to sign a document commiting their Chapters to the UIL. We still see this as an individual decision not one which the Chapter will make for all of its members.
I to hope (and believe) that cooler heads will eventually prevail. I agree with you that the relationship between TASO & UIL will never be the same again. That happened when they began their hostile takeover of TASO Football after years of assuring us they were very happy with the way we were run. I don't know about you but you don't get to sneak up and stab me in the back and then return and ask if everything can go back the way it was.
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Speaking of the aforementioned letter. Here's the copy I received:
Dear Superintendents,
Chairman Rick Reedy has advised us that he is calling a Special Meeting of the Legislative Council to allow interested parties to testify on the previously approved amendment in Section 1204 of the UIL Constitution and Contest Rules. The Legislative Council also may consider whether additional modifications should be made.
The meeting will be called for January 14th 2010. If you have any questions regarding this meeting, please feel free to contact the office.
Charles Breithaupt
Executive Director
University Interscholastic League
Does this mean that the chairman of the Legislative Council is finally going to allow the Council to hear the TASO side of this...despite the many blocks of the past by Contrerras, Cousins, and Breithaup?
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Rick Reedy is the SUP of Frisco ISD. He has not listened to any of it yet. Why would he now. Remember raesoning is not a staple of the UIL.
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Speaking of the aforementioned letter. Here's the copy I received:
Dear Superintendents,
The Texas Association of Sports Officials (TASO) filed suit against the UIL on December 3, 2009. TASO does not want officials to be required to register with the UIL. In its pleadings, TASO questions the validity of the rule-making authority of the UIL and the Legislative Council.
Uhhhhh...not really. The issue is not "registering with UIL", it is much more than that. If "registering with UIL" just means they get to put my name in a database, I could care less as would most every other ref I suspect. It isthe $50 and their exertion of "control" that we are against.
The University of Texas Office of Legal Affairs, headed by UT Vice President Patti Ohlendorf and Associate Vice President Leo Barnes, have spent considerable time with Dr. Cousins and myself over the last month as they reviewed a complaint filed with the University by TASO. They have developed a considerable understanding of the issues involved and the positions of the parties.
Great, more non-officials (especially non-FOOTBALL officials) putting their two-bits in.
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This is the alleged amendment to be discussed:
Proposal 1
December 14, 2009
Proposed Amendment to the University Interscholastic League Constitution and Contest Rules
A. Brief Explanation of Proposed Amendment
This amendment solidifies a previously approved rule change that requires UIL member schools to
use officials registered with UIL in all varsity team sport contests. The amendment also clarifies
concerns in reference to the status of officials for non-varsity contests.
B. Factual and Policy Justifications
Clarifying language is necessary to make it clear that all varsity team sport contests involving UIL
member schools shall be played utilizing officials who are properly registered with UIL. Additionally,
language addressing officials utilized for non-varsity contests clears up some concerns raised on the
status of those contests.
C. Proposed Amendment
Section 1204 (b), of the UIL Constitution and Contest Rules would be amended as follows effective immediately, pending approval by the Commissioner of Education:
Section 1204: OFFICIALS
(b) REGISTRATION OF SPORTS OFFICIALS FOR UIL CONTESTS. Unless mutually
decided otherwise, participant UIL MEMBER schools shall use officials registered with
the UIL in all varsity contests. If non-UIL registered officials are TO BE used for ANY
varsity contests, a report shall be filed with the League office (within seven days of the
contest, if possible) THE INVOLVED SCHOOLS MUST RECEIVE PRIOR
APPROVAL FROM THE UIL DIRECTOR OF ATHLETICS. Exceptions:
(1) In individual sports (Cross Country, Golf, Swimming and Diving, Team Tennis,
Tennis, Track and Field and Wrestling) schools may select and use non-UIL
registered referees for varsity contests.
(2) UNLESS MUTUALLY DECIDED OTHERWISE, It is recommended that UIL
MEMBER schools SHALL use UIL registered officials for non-varsity games.
D. Legislative Council Consideration; Effective Date
If approved by the Legislative Council and the Commissioner of Education, this
amendment shall be effective immediately.
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If approved by the Legislative Council and the Commissioner of Education, this
amendment shall be effective immediately.
Does that imply that baseball will have to be UIL this season?
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So schools can agree to use Non-UIL officials as long as they send in the report to UIL within 7 days. That seems to be the way around all this. We'll just get all our schools to bombard the UIL each week with all those reports.
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I could be wrong, I'm not hearing much out of TASO baseball right now...but it is my understanding that the registration process for baseball is effective immediately, but that the pay scale doesn't begin until next season.
Another screwing if this is the case!!!
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Whilst this may be a get out card it is not for the benefit of officials but for UIL so they can use TASO members if they want to make sure games go ahead.
The good news is they are taking a small step away from requiring only UIL officials to work games. The bad news is this is not any sort of real back down to TASO pressure unless it is a device to allow a genuine debate on the topic, which it does not seem to be but which it might in view of the timing. Why have a special meeting just to clarify the wording of a rule this early.
I suppose one reason may be so the UIL can work on Baseball first, if 504 coach is correct in his reading, as they may see that as an easier nut to crack than football.
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This new language tightens the Non UIL loophole in that it requires schools to get PRIOR CONSENT from Breithaup if they are to use non-UIL officials.
If that is the case, they are trying to tighten the nut on us because they have not had good response to their meeting tomorrow.
It is a shame that they simply refuse to sit down and work it out. This sucks!
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This new language tightens the Non UIL loophole in that it requires schools to get PRIOR CONSENT from Breithaup if they are to use non-UIL officials.
If that is the case, they are trying to tighten the nut on us because they have not had good response to their meeting tomorrow.
It is a shame that they simply refuse to sit down and work it out. This sucks!
The meeting is going on right now, started at 6PM
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So schools can agree to use Non-UIL officials as long as they send in the report to UIL within 7 days. That seems to be the way around all this. We'll just get all our schools to bombard the UIL each week with all those reports.
The mutually agreed upon clause was in the original change also. This one, however, closes that loophole by requiring UIL approval.
Brad
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This new language tightens the Non UIL loophole in that it requires schools to get PRIOR CONSENT from Breithaup if they are to use non-UIL officials.
If that is the case, they are trying to tighten the nut on us because they have not had good response to their meeting tomorrow.
It is a shame that they simply refuse to sit down and work it out. This sucks!
As written it would be consent from Odenwald. (But I suspect reality is every such "request" would be staffed through B also.)
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For BlackandWhite -
Can you get some clarification from Mr T on this ?
The language in 1204b (as amended and as proposed to be further amended) implies there may be times when non-UIL officials work varsity games. But the language at 1204(o)(4)(B) clearly says "Officials who are not registered with UIL will not be pernmitted to work Varsity or post-district games and should not be used for regular season games"
What is the story?
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I have to know. Who is at the meeting? How strong was football attendance? Does Tony the Tyrant need to start his door-to-door a bit sooner than he anticipated?
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TXMike and TexDoc,
Word is that the SA brass was to attend the meeting. Thought all of the big chapters weren't going to show. What is your insight as to why they are going?
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I too hope someone went to listen, and will give us a report. If I were closer, I would have figured out some way to listen in.
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TXMike and TexDoc,
Word is that the SA brass was to attend the meeting. Thought all of the big chapters weren't going to show. What is your insight as to why they are going?
Heard the same thing. If they went it was without any mandate from the Chapter as a whole as we have not been asked formally to take one side or the other. I also doubt they would go if they were forced to sign any "loyalty" agreement with UIL. More likely they went because they know there are some folks in the Chapter who want to go with UIL as well as some who are on the fence so the Board felt some obligation to gather info for them.
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Hey, Blackandwhite:
You've been asked by several members here about the specifics of how TASO has "screwed up" as you stated. Are you going to list these specifics, or just keep dodging the question?
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BandW is just and Amway salesman!
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Yep - like most cheap salesmen, when you get down to the brass tacks, they run and hide till another victim comes along. I am beginning to think there are no advantages to being UIL. If I were gung-ho about something like this, I would be selling it in a very very very positive spin as opposed to running down those that are opposed to it. C'mon, BandW, convince me I'm wrong.
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The new 1204 version also says it would take effect immediately upon approval the commissioner of education. ( was July 1) This way they won't have till wait till summer.
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BandW = Tony "the lurker" Timmons?
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BandW = Tony "the lurker" Timmons?
Who cares who he is, IGNORE HIM, HE WILL GO AWAY
That was in a movie also, forget which one! >:D
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^flag
Please take time to watch the Youtube clips of the illustrious UIL Director of Officiating and decide for yourself if you feel like he truly represents the honesty and integrity that TASO officials demand. He is shown addressing the Houston UIL Basketball Chapter shortly after that group defected to the UIL by less than a handful of votes.
Go to the Youtube website(@ youtube.com) and simply search for "Tony Timmons UIL". There are some 10 different numbered film clips from this particular meeting there to look at. All I can say is to look at it and decide for yourself whether this is the role model or type of individual that you would like to see as the state leader of sports officials for the forseeable future! z^
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The YouTube videos are simply the good Dr.'s puppet being that...a puppet. He has the same voice characterization and inflection of the good Dr. The videos are hillarious. Reminds me of when I was a kid and being dragged to the hell-fire and brimstone revival preaching of old time Southern Baptist preachers. The only thing missing was the Bible being waved and the hankercheif used to wipe sweat from the brow.
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Exactly. Reminds me of revivals in the summer, except he wants his money up front.
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Please take time to watch the Youtube clips of the illustrious UIL Director of Officiating and decide for yourself if you feel like he truly represents the honesty and integrity that TASO officials demand. He is shown addressing the Houston UIL Basketball Chapter shortly after that group defected to the UIL by less than a handful of votes.
If the court-ordered TRO is still in effect, why are the YT clips still allowed to be played?
Having these out there for all to see seems to violate the verbiage of the TRO.
Just saying......
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^flag
Too bad that the Dancing Monkey had a "UIL alter call" with Houston Basketball. A slim majority did come forward to dedicate themselves as new officials for the new UIL order. It's good to know, however, that not everyone came forward; and that TASO/Houston Basketball is still functional and is working to compete with Tony the Tiger's group! z^
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^flag
Too bad that the Dancing Monkey had a "UIL alter call" with Houston Basketball. A slim majority did come forward to dedicate themselves as new officials for the new UIL order. It's good to know, however, that not everyone came forward; and that TASO/Houston Basketball is still functional and is working to compete with Tony the Tiger's group! z^
Can you expand on this some? The UIL Houston Basketball chapter has roughly 750 members. How many are left in the TASO chapter? I moved to Houston in August and was not even aware there was a TASO basketball chapter still in Houston.
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Can you expand on this some? The UIL Houston Basketball chapter has roughly 750 members. How many are left in the TASO chapter? I moved to Houston in August and was not even aware there was a TASO basketball chapter still in Houston.
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What remains of the Houston-TASO Basketball Chapter still exists up on the North side of Houston and has about 100 people who are either TASO loyalists(like myself) and some dual members. Their coverage now is limited to mostly private schools and some of the Northern suburban Houston area school districts.
Word on the street is that the UIL-Houston President(who was a former basketball player and student of the Good UIL Dr., when he was actually a high school basketball coach eons ago~ SEE THE CONNECTION YET?) has appointed himself as the "Hugo Chavez" President and feels that there is no immediate need for elections. Heck, I don't think that they have had even two meetings this season, when the old Chapter constitution called for an absolute minimum of seven. Supposedly, their Pres has made it abuntantly clear that all chapter appointments will be done by him without little or any kind of board or chapter ratification. There doesn't even appear to be the presence of an existing current Chapter Constitution and By-Laws for them to follow. I am told that once this group had defected to the UIL, that the President forced the existing Board Members into signing a "loyalty oath" to the UIL. I feel rather confident that the Venezuelan dictator should apply to join this group as he could well stand to take a few lessons from this guy!
The good news is that there is some word circulating that a lot of those members(non-officers and non-board members) who joined the defection, purely in order to have varsity basketball games to work for the 2009-10 basketball season, are actually rethinking their priorities and may be rejoining the TASO-Houston Chapter; more especially since the TASO lawsuit has gone forward and seems to be showing early signs of success. z^
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Thank you for the information. I've sent you a PM to discuss this further.
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What remains of the Houston-TASO Basketball Chapter still exists up on the North side of Houston and has about 100 people who are either TASO loyalists(like myself) and some dual members. Their coverage now is limited to mostly private schools and some of the Northern suburban Houston area school districts.
Word on the street is that the UIL-Houston President(who was a former basketball player and student of the Good UIL Dr., when he was actually a high school basketball coach eons ago~ SEE THE CONNECTION YET?) has appointed himself as the "Hugo Chavez" President and feels that there is no immediate need for elections. Heck, I don't think that they have had even two meetings this season, when the old Chapter constitution called for an absolute minimum of seven. Supposedly, their Pres has made it abuntantly clear that all chapter appointments will be done by him without little or any kind of board or chapter ratification. There doesn't even appear to be the presence of an existing current Chapter Constitution and By-Laws for them to follow. I am told that once this group had defected to the UIL, that the President forced the existing Board Members into signing a "loyalty oath" to the UIL. I feel rather confident that the Venezuelan dictator should apply to join this group as he could well stand to take a few lessons from this guy!
The good news is that there is some word circulating that a lot of those members(non-officers and non-board members) who joined the defection, purely in order to have varsity basketball games to work for the 2009-10 basketball season, are actually rethinking their priorities and may be rejoining the TASO-Houston Chapter; more especially since the TASO lawsuit has gone forward and seems to be showing early signs of success. z^
Did anyone detect any increased accountabilty in that description of affairs of the UIL chapter?
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Did anyone detect any increased accountabilty in that description of affairs of the UIL chapter?
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Think that one can safely surmize that if the Chapter runs its affairs in a condescending fashion, can the state organization really be that far removed? Simply great food for thought! z^
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Just an update: I happened to be assigned last night to work a pair of subvarsity basketball games by Houston-TASO. The UIL Houston Chapter had contracted 3 officials to work the following Varsity game. 2 of the 3 officials show up to work the game and notify their Assigner of the "no-show" official. They went ahead and reffed the game in 2 man format.
It was no secret that this "no-show" just happened to be a close, personal friend of the Houston UIL Chapter :bOW "El Presidente!" In a previous season, this very same "no-show" was allowed to walk off of the basketball court in a Varsity tournament game without ever having said a word to his co-officials, coaches, administrators, or the Chapter tournament assigner; in essence stranding his fellow game officials. He later said that he did it because the coaches antics were starting to get to him and that he didn't have to put up with it! No action was ever taken against him for his act of cowardice by the Chapter leadership. In fact, he was rewarded with playoff games and was even subsequently assigned by the Chapter leadership to a UIL State Regional Tournament.
Back when I was TASO Houston Basketball President(in another century), an individual who "no-showed" received a monetary fine and forfeited his right to be placed on the playoff roster as provided in the Chapter Constitution and Bylaws. A second occurence, and this individual would have had the balance of his schedule yanked and would be placed on probation for the ensuing basketball season!
All I can say is thank God for the sanity and the ethical fortitude in being represented by an organization like TASO instead of subscribing to the apparent sleeze factor of the UIL Houston and State leadership! So UIL, how's that "increased accountability" in the sports that you now alledgedly preside over exactly working out for you? z^
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Just an update: I happened to be assigned last night to work a pair of subvarsity basketball games by Houston-TASO. The UIL Houston Chapter had contracted 3 officials to work the following Varsity game. 2 of the 3 officials show up to work the game and notify their Assigner of the "no-show" official. They went ahead and reffed the game in 2 man format.
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How did the 2 man crew that worked the game do?
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How did the 2 man crew that worked the game do?
They were wonderful! Wish I could have gotten the opportunity to work with them! They performed so well! Thinking back on it, it really must have been these guys TASO upbringing that made them work so well together! z^
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So exactly when does the original court of jurisdiction, the 98th Civil District Civil Court, get this case back?; now that the Appeals Court has remanded it back to them. Or is everyone just waiting with bated breath to see if the Good UIL Dr. is, indeed, going to march right on down Congress Avenue to the Texas Supreme Court building to further the appellate process? I kind of figured the trial court would want to start docketing pre-trial procedures and setting up the ordered depositions on this case as soon as it was practically possible. z^
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When was it remanded back? I can only find the Injunction on their web page.
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The Appeals Court only ordered an injunction to be in effect until their decision is rendered which will be in 2 to 6 months. After that, if they rule in our favor, the case will be remanded back to the District Court for disposition. This will probably be the time that Dr. B and TT can be deposed and we can finally learn how they got the E-mail addresses.
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Thanks for clearing that up for me! Now that it appears that as long as the Appeals Court is holding the trump card on this issue and that it could take anywhere from 2-6 months for them to rule on the core issue, it will probably be "business as usual" for TASO football chapters statewide for at least the 2010 football season.
Along those lines, prior to the Appeals Court ruling, had any TASO football chapters successfully "defected" to the UIL; if so, any word on which ones? If they did, I would think that they would have truly placed themselves between a rock and a hard place! z^
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Along those lines, prior to the Appeals Court ruling, had any TASO football chapters successfully "defected" to the UIL; if so, any word on which ones? If they did, I would think that they would have truly placed themselves between a rock and a hard place! z^
I am not sure they have as the same arguments as how TASO officials would be needed if there were not enough UIL officials will see the reverse apply also. If a whole chapter has gone over then they will likely still work all the games they would have if they had stayed with TASO.
They will also have an advantage come playoff time if the UIL gets to choose crews when teams cannot agree.
The interesting thing happens when there are two chapters looking for the same games. However, the answer to your question will tell us where these interesting locations are if they in fact exist yet.
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I have not heard of any competing UIL football chapters, and none was mentioned at the President/Secretary meeting.
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With the court action in place (TRO/Injunction) I do not believe that any Chapter can become a "UIL Football" chapter. All recruiting and/or registration have been halted for now. I am sure that there were some Chapters whose President & Secretary signed the committment form to join UIL but imagine they aren't worth much right now.
As of the TASO Football Board meeting a week ago only one Chapter had not submitted their TASO dues....that would be the Waco Chapter. Not sure if they have since then.
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Just another update from the UIL-Houston Basketball Chapter: Several dual members(having paid dues to both TASO and UIL Chapters from Houston) have reported that after having been found to be working playoff games/regional tournament games for the TASO-Houston Chapter by the UIL-Houston Chapter :bOW "El Presidente", they have subsequently been denied further receipt of UIL playoff games, most notably by the UIL-Houston Chapter leadership simply by their telling the inquiring coaches/athletic directors that those particular individuals are simply "not available." The long-serving Secretary of this chapter has basically been forbidden to assign any games, as once had been his duty while under the TASO banner; now he just makes the necessary telephone calls to the individual membership on the games that they have been selected for or duly assigned by "El Presidente." To that end, the coaches/athletic directors have been directed to call only "El Presidente" if they would like to make officials selections for a particular playoff game or to have him set up assignments of chapter playoff officials. I really can't help but wonder if this is the standard operating procedure that is practiced and dictated by the Good UIL Dr. and his UIL troop of surrogates! I guess that that's just good old UIL leadership for you!
To quote Mel Brooks depicting King Louis XVI in the French Revolution from History of the World, Part I, "It's good to be the King!" z^
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Just another update from the UIL-Houston Basketball Chapter: Several dual members(having paid dues to both TASO and UIL Chapters from Houston) have reported that after having been found to be working playoff games/regional tournament games for the TASO-Houston Chapter by the UIL-Houston Chapter :bOW "El Presidente", they have subsequently been denied further receipt of UIL playoff games, most notably by the UIL-Houston Chapter leadership simply by their telling the inquiring coaches/athletic directors that those particular individuals are simply "not available." The long-serving Secretary of this chapter has basically been forbidden to assign any games, as once had been his duty while under the TASO banner; now he just makes the necessary telephone calls to the individual membership on the games that they have been selected for or duly assigned by "El Presidente." To that end, the coaches/athletic directors have been directed to call only "El Presidente" if they would like to make officials selections for a particular playoff game or to have him set up assignments of chapter playoff officials. I really can't help but wonder if this is the standard operating procedure that is practiced and dictated by the Good UIL Dr. and his UIL troop of surrogates! I guess that that's just good old UIL leadership for you!
To quote Mel Brooks depicting King Louis XVI in the French Revolution from History of the World, Part I, "It's good to be the King!" z^
Why doesn't the TASO chapter contact those coaches to inform them of the availability of those officials and inform them that future assignments should be made by the TASO chapter.
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Why doesn't the TASO chapter contact those coaches to inform them of the availability of those officials and inform them that future assignments should be made by the TASO chapter.
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Primarily because the UIL(and with a rich "rubber-stamped" blessing from the UIL Legislative Council) had previously issued an ultimatum somewhat to the effect that all officials who are named to work 2010 UIL basketball playoff games must be properly registered with the UIL. I would think that these aggrieved individual officials could make a case with the UIL by so informing the Good UIL Dr. of their plight. But in all reality, who would you suppose that the Good UIL Dr. is going to actually stand up for? These aggrieved TASO basketball officials; or for his "prize star pupil", good ole :bOW "El Presidente" of the UIL-Houston Basketball Chapter? z^
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Primarily because the UIL(and with a rich "rubber-stamped" blessing from the UIL Legislative Council) had previously issued an ultimatum somewhat to the effect that all officials who are named to work 2010 UIL basketball playoff games must be properly registered with the UIL. I would think that these aggrieved individual officials could make a case with the UIL by so informing the Good UIL Dr. of their plight. But in all reality, who would you suppose that the Good UIL Dr. is going to actually stand up for? These aggrieved TASO basketball officials; or for his "prize star pupil", good ole :bOW "El Presidente" of the UIL-Houston Basketball Chapter? z^
I thought the court ruling put everything back the way it was prior to the UIL takeover attempt. If so, those UIL chapters don't even exist. Or perhaps the court ruling just prevenst them from signing anyone else up, but those that had already signed up can continue to be UIL members.
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I thought the court ruling put everything back the way it was prior to the UIL takeover attempt. If so, those UIL chapters don't even exist. Or perhaps the court ruling just prevenst them from signing anyone else up, but those that had already signed up can continue to be UIL members.
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I had the very same thought process, but it appears that the Appeals Court's latest ruling only prohibits the UIL from recruiting activities of TASO officials and further prohibits that recruiting activity on its website. It really doesn't address the UIL being in a position to effectively recruit John Q. Public as one of its UIL officials. After all, and as you might well remember, the Dancing Monkey's announced remedy to the covert threat of TASO Chapters and Officials walking-out was simply to go knocking on doors to recruit interested parties to become officials. I can't help but think that our little UIL friend as well as the Good UIL Dr.'s rationale in doing this is that they see a less than stellar economy, and they just kinda figure that there's a bunch of folks sitting around out there needing some form of revenue to help make it on, and selling them on the premise that officiating a high school or junior high football, basketball, baseball, softball, or soccer game could be the ticket to help put money in their pocket and bread on the table~ and that's not even taking into consideration that these folks had ever given any prior consideration to even think about donning stripes.
It is hardly a secret that if the law of supply and demand ever dictated that the UIL and the AD's could get by with only paying an official a $20.00 flat fee for a Varsity game, then that's exactly what they would pay! And while paying out that bare bones minimum, they would still continue in their attempt to work their magic and to push every step of the way to significantly lower that bottom-line figure even further! z^
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I suspect there are many FB guys who would NOT like to be paid on a supply and demand system cause they would see a big pay decrease (and yes, I know there are others who would see an increase).
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Mike, I think you are very wrong. With coaches essentially choosing officials across the state, with a few exceptions, do you think the coaches would rather choose officials they don't want to a price they like or choose the officials they do want for the price that the officials and school agree upon? For 5A and 4A, I strongly believe it would be the latter.
Have you ever met a coach that really cares one bit about his budget, especially if he was not also the AD? I have not.
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I would say the events of the past several months shows who is running the show and it is NOT coaches.
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I would say the events of the past several months shows who is running the show and it is NOT coaches.
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Totally in agreement! It's pretty much a no-brainer that the UIL and the AD's are the ones who currently have the lions share of the clout! z^
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I would say the events of the past several months shows who is running the show and it is NOT coaches.
So you believe that the AD's would settle for unqualified officials for varsity football games in order to save money? I still don't agree with that.
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There are plenty of "qualified" officials sitting at home every Fri night in many parts of the state.
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There are plenty of "qualified" officials sitting at home every Fri night in many parts of the state.
True, but in some parts of the state there are not enough to go around.
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Hence my recognition of that when I first commented. Supply and demand might benefit them but not other places.
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Mike, I think you've hit on something very important that TASO and UIL need to constantly keep in mind. What fits for Houston will not always fit for Odessa, and vice-versa. And, it isn't just a numbers game, it is a quality of numbers game as well.
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If (and it is a big big if) UIL some how comes out on top of the lawsuit. You will see a lot of supply and demand come into effect with officiating. How much money will a school pay to have officials at their game? How much will it take to get 5 TASO die hards to register with the UIL to officiate a big money game? Everyone has their price.
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If (and it is a big big if) UIL some how comes out on top of the lawsuit. You will see a lot of supply and demand come into effect with officiating. How much money will a school pay to have officials at their game? How much will it take to get 5 TASO die hards to register with the UIL to officiate a big money game? Everyone has their price.
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If the UIL has their way about it, then that "big money game" that you're referring to will probably amount to no more than about $100.00, inclusive of mileage. Division 3's, 4's, and 5's might, no doubt, step on each other to get to those games, but I'm almost positive that the upper echelon of officials, other than a select few who either desire a "ring game" or a state semi-final, will exercise a more sound judgement when it comes to game pay without gate receipts. The gate receipt formula has, in effect, been stricken for all sports sans football; but if the UIL can help the AD's hold on to all of that football revenue that they're raking in, then can a football "flat-fee" structure really be that far down the road from now? Now that's what I would call "UIL Supply and Demand!" z^
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Have just received word that the Houston UIL Basketball Chapter is now late in not sending out its dues notices to its members for the 2010-11 season, which normally encompasses UIL state and local fees. This would mean that they obviously have not antied-up their dues to the Good UIL Dr. and are not current, unless the UIL has given them some form of dispensation. Given that, I know that a standing court order from the 98th Civil District Court in Austin remains in effect(despite recently having been elevated to the Third Court of Appeals by the UIL) that prohibits the UIL from engaging in the recruitment of officials for any sport, or materially participating in related activities. Does this mean that this legal prohibition handed down against the UIL would also preclude any collection of dues or fees by the UIL, as that, in and of itself, could well amount to material participation on their part in officiating activities~ seemingly a direct violation of that standing court order. Does anyone have any official or unofficial word if any of the other UIL sanctioned Basketball Chapters( or for that matter, any of the other affected sports) has, in fact, remitted their 2010-11 annual dues to the UIL? Enquiring minds would love to know! z^
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Have just received word that the Houston UIL Basketball Chapter is now late in not sending out its dues notices to its members for the 2010-11 season, which normally encompasses UIL state and local fees. This would mean that they obviously have not antied-up their dues to the Good UIL Dr. and are not current, unless the UIL has given them some form of dispensation. Given that, I know that a standing court order from the 98th Civil District Court in Austin remains in effect(despite recently having been elevated to the Third Court of Appeals by the UIL) that prohibits the UIL from engaging in the recruitment of officials for any sport, or materially participating in related activities. Does this mean that this legal prohibition handed down against the UIL would also preclude any collection of dues or fees by the UIL, as that, in and of itself, could well amount to material participation on their part in officiating activities~ seemingly a direct violation of that standing court order. Does anyone have any official or unofficial word if any of the other UIL sanctioned Basketball Chapters( or for that matter, any of the other affected sports) has, in fact, remitted their 2010-11 annual dues to the UIL? Enquiring minds would love to know! z^
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Well, it now appears that those "late" dues notices for UIL Houston Chapter Basketball just went out by email! In it, they are soliciting $50.00 of the $195.00 total dues assessment for "State UIL Dues." Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a direct violation of an existing court order from the 98th Civil District Court, as backed up by the Third Court of Appeals? I guess that our good ole Houston UIL Basketball Chapter :bOW El Presidente will now get his opportunity to stand before the judge and either defer blame onto his good friend and mentor, the Good UIL Dr., or protect our Good UIL Dr. by simply falling on his sword for him! What a piece of UIL leadership we have there in Austin! z^
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Excellent article about how the UIL presents themselves.
http://www.grahamleader.com/index.asp?Story=19063
Love this quote:
"The reputation of the UIL is that they are an organization that doesn’t really care about anything but making money and doesn’t answer to anyone."
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Not sure what is meant by the description of the offending personnel as "officials". Wonder if he meant UIL-trained event officials, or UIL staff, or non-UIL trained event officials or what he meant. I can hear them now..."Those were not UIL-trained officials. Had they been there would have been no problems whatsoever. But this restraining order is keeping us from upgrading the officiating"
(And i am sure the media types were behaving themselves at all times. Just like in football, they never even get close to the limit line. ;) )
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(And i am sure the media types were behaving themselves at all times. Just like in football, they never even get close to the limit line. ;) )
Mike, those are my thoughts exactly. For some reason, the media think they are exempt of all rules. How many times do we have run off camera guys that feel like they have to get on the field to get the shot?
I do agree with the article writer's description of the UIL though, always focusing on how much money they can bring in.
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How many times do we have run off camera guys that feel like they have to get on the field to get the shot?
Made me laugh, I once stopped a quarter final 5A game with the kickoff in the air because a news photographer ran onto the field to get a "good shot".
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Don't think they stay off of the track during meets. Had one cause a false start when he stuffed a camera into the face of a runner in the blocks and had the flash go off. Three lanes jumped.
At the State meet these guys were a pest crossing the track during races and trying to crowd the finish line. The down side is that the UIL does not run off a good meet.
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Excellent article about how the UIL presents themselves.
http://www.grahamleader.com/index.asp?Story=19063
Love this quote:
"The reputation of the UIL is that they are an organization that doesn’t really care about anything but making money and doesn’t answer to anyone."
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My goodness! Is there any way possible that the Good UIL Dr. will ever permit this article to be printed in "The Leaguer?"[With permission, of course!] It just makes me that much prouder to be a part of one of the greatest avocational and fraternal organizations known to officiating~TASO! z^
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I was at the state track meet this past weekend watching a couple of my students run. I walked around the meet and dealt with the UIL officials. Basically it was not just the media they were yelling at but also the school administrators. They were absolutely classless. I saw one of the more obnoxious ones dipping in the infield. I went up to him and asked him for his name and he gave it to me. I then filed an incident report with the UIL on him for using tobacco products at a school event. Don't get me wrong I have been known to confiscate a kids dip can so I can dip in front of him. I have also dipped while officiating a JR. HI. football game. Really the state track meet and you have to have a dip and be an IDIOT??? That is just wrong.
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Well, when they are shelling down the dineros that the UIL seems to be mandating these days, I guess they can pretty well afford to dip! Maybe even from a sterling silver premium dip can! Just goes to show you that the true mantra of the UIL is "do as I say and not as I do!" z^
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Looks like a setback, hopefully just temporarily.
http://www.3rdcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/case.asp?FilingID=15091
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Looks like a setback, hopefully just temporarily.
http://www.3rdcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/case.asp?FilingID=15091
Opinion posted http://www.3rdcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/pdfOpinion.asp?OpinionID=19506 (http://www.3rdcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/pdfOpinion.asp?OpinionID=19506)
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Any chance for appeal to a higher court?
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Translation anyone???
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I am NOT a lawyer, do not play one on TV, and did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night....but it seems they are saying UIL , as an agency, has immunity. Door was left open to suits against individuals in UIL
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Don't really know if this 3-person Appeals Court panel was a unanimous decision or if it was a split decision. In any event, I didn't see any evidence of a dissenting opinion in the Appeal Courts decision. Notwithstanding, I do believe that this thing can now be appealed by TASO to the full Appeals Court, and ultimately to the Texas Supreme Court, provided that the next level of appeal proves to be unfruitful. For it to be elevated to the U. S. Supreme Court, they would have to come up with some form of a federal issue. z^
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Don't really know if this 3-person Appeals Court panel was a unanimous decision or if it was a split decision. In any event, I didn't see any evidence of a dissenting opinion in the Appeal Courts decision. Notwithstanding, I do believe that this thing can now be appealed by TASO to the full Appeals Court, and ultimately to the Texas Supreme Court, provided that the next level of appeal proves to be unfruitful. For it to be elevated to the U. S. Supreme Court, they would have to come up with some form of a federal issue. z^
Well either that or some of us may be calling our last year of football!
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TXMike has a good grasp on the ruling from what I can tell:
1. UIL = state agency
2. A. Can't sue state agency for tortious interference with business contract
B. "illegal attempt to exercise unauthorized delegation of power" and "illegal occupation tax" are ultra vires acts
i. Cannot name state entity in suits for ultra vires acts
ii. Could possibly name individual actors (ie - Breithaupt and Timmons and whoever else)
3. How does TASO proceed? I have no earthly idea. Fold/appeal/new lawsuit against individual actors/unionize/strike/walk away...? Very tough position. Very bad timing for ruling - Friday night week 0. Clearly Judge Henson is not a football fan.
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And my farewell tour begins.
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Won't really lay over and die until after the fat lady sings, or until such time that TASO tells me where she's going to perform. But I do trust Mr. Schumann and pray that he's still got a couple of well placed legal cards up his sleeve left to play. But if the UIL ultimately prevails, I just want to let all of you know that it's simply been a wonderful 30+ years with all of my SOA/TASO brethern. I will miss you all... but I'll never forget you and all the good times and the conscientious officiating that TASO fostered in us all! z^
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Unfortunately I don't have 30 years in and still love this--it would be very difficult to walk away completely. I would gladly go on strike for a while. The only way that I'd trust the UIL is without Breithaup and Timmons.
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And my farewell tour begins.
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Yours, mine and a lot of other good officials who simply love the game but cannot work for Dr. B or Timmons or the UIL for that matter.
If they can work out some compromise where TASO is left in charge but I do not think that is what Dr. B wants or he could have done so without the lawsuit.
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Unfortunately I don't have 30 years in and still love this--it would be very difficult to walk away completely.
You and I and a lot of other good officials are in that same canoe. I'm not ready to walk away, I've really just begun. We're in a tight spot because if we stay, I have a feeling there will be several brothers in stripes that will not look kindly upon that decision.
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We've all had bosses at some point in our lives that we really didn't like. This too shall pass. I ask all veteran and non veteran officials alike - please do not leave. We need your expertise and direction. As you walk out on the field tonight - look around - this is way God made Friday nights. Be loyal to your chapters and crews - mentor young officials - love the game. Don't let this setback run you off. Please.
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I have one life to live. I will not let a "change" so far run me away from the very thing I love. Fact is I would rather sit back, stay, and fight for a proper way of doing and hanlding things and play what cards are delt to me. As it was yesterday if it ever becomes something I do not enjoy then I will walk away.
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I have on life to live. I will not let a "change" so far run me away from the very thing I love. I fact I would rather sit back, stay, and fight for a proper way of doing and hanlding things and play what cards are delt to me. As is was yesterday if it ever becomes something I do not enjoy then I will walk away.
That is the thing, for many of us the idea of working for Dr. B or Timmons or UIL make it something we will not enjoy.
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I can't work for an entity that believes having an extended timeout, for player safety, is a violation of the spirit and intent of the rules. They work for one master - and it is not the officials. My best guess is that the shirts the UIL officials wear next year will have a big red target on the back for proper knife placement when the UIL hands out punishment for egregious officiating errors.
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I can't want to see the new on-line testing and training they plan to provide to football officials. Just where are they going to get that expertise?
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Nobody can force us to pay dues to the UIL. UIL will never be able to get enough officials to cover the games. TASO can barely cover them with all the chapters. Even then, some games are forced to be done with a short handed crew. Once a few years ago there was a game where the head coach forgot to get a crew scheduled. Instead of cancelling the game they used a few assistant coaches to work the game. It looked more like a scrimmage than a game because these coaches didn't really know what they were doing. The game counted. It was done without any UIL approval to use non-certified officials. When it comes down to a Friday night game, these schools will put all UIL rules aside and do what they have to to have their game officiated. If that means using a TASO chapter then that is what they will do. Just don't pay any dues to UIL. Support your chapter and you will get games.
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You and I and a lot of other good officials are in that same canoe. I'm not ready to walk away, I've really just begun. We're in a tight spot because if we stay, I have a feeling there will be several brothers in stripes that will not look kindly upon that decision.
This should not be your reason for staying put. Don't worry about how those who choose not to join you feel about it. Stay because you want to keep doing it and you are willing to do so under the UIL, with all the baggage that brings with it. But stay put just to "please" others.
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Houston Chronicle article
Appeals court rules for UIL in lawsuit
Challenge involving officials by TASO halted
By SAM KHAN JR.
The lengthy legal battle between the University Interscholastic League and the Texas Association of Sports Officials has ended.
The state’s Third Court of Appeals in Austin dismissed TASO’s lawsuit against the UIL on Friday, ending a battle that began in December when TASO, the state’s governing body of sports officials, sued the UIL, the state’s governing body of high school athletics.
“We’re pleased that this portion of the challenge is over,” University Interscholastic League executive director Charles Breithaupt said. “We have a dedication to work with our officials and show them we appreciate the work they do night in and night out.”
TASO executive director Michael Fitch couldn’t immediately be reached for comment.
Last October, the UIL passed an amendment to rule 1204 of its constitution, requiring that all officials that call its varsity contests be registered with the UIL. In the preceding 32 years, TASO officials were required for varsity contests.
TASO was opposed to the ruling, and after it filed its lawsuit in December, the court issued a writ of injunction against the UIL in February, preventing the organization from collecting any fees in relation to its officials’ registration program or from enforcing the amendments to rule 1204 of the UIL’s constitution, which were passed in November requiring schools to use UIL-registered officials.
The Third Court of Appeals lifted that injunction and ruled that the UIL has sovereign immunity, which barred TASO’s claim that the UIL had no legal right to require officials to register with the organization.
Breithaupt said the UIL will meet with its attorneys before taking further action but that the league plans to meet with TASO’s officials in an attempt to find a common ground as they move forward.
“We’re going to meet with our attorneys and map out our next step and then work with the individual divisions (of officials) and coordinate the next steps,” Breithaupt said. “We don’t want to leave that out.
“Without their input there can be no success.”
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Hey, if any of y'all that can't stomach working for UIL and don't mind learning NFHS rules, I can think of at least one chapter in Virginia that would love to add some vets.
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If we wanted to work fed rules we could just wait as they will be here soon enough now it seems.
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This should not be your reason for staying put. Don't worry about how those who choose not to join you feel about it. Stay because you want to keep doing it and you are willing to do so under the UIL, with all the baggage that brings with it. But stay put just to "please" others.
Make no mistake, I will stick around because I want to keep officiating. That said I can already envision being called a scab for wanting to do so.
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Make no mistake, I will stick around because I want to keep officiating. That said I can already envision being called a scab for wanting to do so.
No scabs at all. It is personal choice. The game will go one with or without TASO / UIL officials. As TXMike stated - it is a personal choice, a risk / reward individual analysis.
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I hope and pray that Taso can survive. i think its the best organization FOR officials. Some where there has to be one person with taso and one person with uil that can sit down and come to an agreement that shares responsibilities and yes dues if needed. each group can take care of the areas they could excel in UIL registration, back ground checks and record keeping. TASO could excel in training, recruiting, and chapter organization. They could share in issues concerning complaints and discipline.
But lets be clear I got into this to call football games. I intend to continue to call football games. I don't do this for a living, TASO, or the UIL. I do it because I love it. I love the Game. I didn't join Taso or UIL . I joined my Chapter.
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I hope and pray that Taso can survive. i think its the best organization FOR officials. Some where there has to be one person with taso and one person with uil that can sit down and come to an agreement that shares responsibilities and yes dues if needed. each group can take care of the areas they could excel in UIL registration, back ground checks and record keeping. TASO could excel in training, recruiting, and chapter organization. They could share in issues concerning complaints and discipline.
But lets be clear I got into this to call football games. I intend to continue to call football games. I don't do this for a living, TASO, or the UIL. I do it because I love it. I love the Game. I didn't join Taso or UIL . I joined my Chapter.
Meaning When I first Joined I had never heard of the Organization TASO and only Heard of UIL but didn't know what role they really played in atheletics. I just had some friends that called games and I wanted to do it too. So I joined the Chapter.
If the changes that could occur if TASO loses makes me not love to call anymore then I walk away. If not I keep calling.
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In regards to: http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=6792.msg62970#msg62970 (http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=6792.msg62970#msg62970)
Doesn't the fact that UIL claimed that the injunction prevented it from paying officials the new fees increases previously announced in the UIL Leaguer March 5, 2010, that the new fee increase is now in effect?
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Here's an idea. If UIL wants to be in charge, we should be allowed to elect our own officials to be put on the UIL board so that we can be in charge of decisions that affect us. Any paid leaders with TASO should also be provided a paid position if they so desire. Basically it will be the UIL and TASO working together for one common goal. TASO can become a branch of the UIL.
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Here's an idea. If UIL wants to be in charge, we should be allowed to elect our own officials to be put on the UIL board so that we can be in charge of decisions that affect us. Any paid leaders with TASO should also be provided a paid position if they so desire. Basically it will be the UIL and TASO working together for one common goal. TASO can become a branch of the UIL.
Jason, I share your thoughts. When TT was in San Antonio last year, he kept talking about officials needing to be held accountable (as though we are not right now!). So, I asked him who he was accountable to. He said Dr. B. That tells you right there what a mess this is. TT is NOT accountable to the officials he would supposed to be representing. If 99% of us disagree with the UIL, tough, we have no recourse. We are to do as told and not buck the system.
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Here's an idea. If UIL wants to be in charge, we should be allowed to elect our own officials to be put on the UIL board so that we can be in charge of decisions that affect us. Any paid leaders with TASO should also be provided a paid position if they so desire. Basically it will be the UIL and TASO working together for one common goal. TASO can become a branch of the UIL.
UIL has not shown any signs of willingness to negotiate before, I suspect they will not know.
As JVG said " our farewell tour" has begun
Rick
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It ain't over till it's over....from the Houston newspaper:
TASO expects to re-file lawsuit against UIL
By SAM KHAN JR.
The legal battle between the Texas Association of Sports Officials and the University Interscholastic League came to a halt on Friday, but it won’t be for long.
On Monday, TASO, the state’s governing body for sports officials, will continue its quest to prevent the UIL, the state’s governing body for high school athletics, from requiring officials to register with the league.
Though the state’s Third District Court of Appeals in Austin dismissed the case on Friday, it entered no opinion as to the merit of TASO’s claims whether the UIL has a legal right to require registration of officials that call its varsity contests.
Friday’s ruling clarified that the UIL is legally considered a state agency, meaning that any lawsuit against it must be filed against its director, not the entire organization. TASO’s original lawsuit, which was filed in December in the Travis County District Court, was against the organization itself. As the legal process played out, there was some confusion as to whether the UIL was an unincorporated association or a state agency until Friday.
TASO attorney Gary Schumann said on Saturday that the organization will re-file the lawsuit on Monday morning in the Travis County District Court, likely naming UIL executive director Charles Breithaupt as the defendant.
“I don’t view this as an unfavorable ruling,” Schumann said. “If anything it helps clarify what we need to do. The court didn't dismiss the substance of our argument.
“If anything, I think the UIL has a harder road now. If they’re a state agency they need to act like one and comply with the prerequisites and duties that any other state agency has.”
Breithaupt declined to comment on the matter on Saturday.
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"If they’re a state agency they need to act like one and comply with the prerequisites and duties that any other state agency has."
In what ways does this require then to act differently than they have in the past?
Since they are a state agency, who does the UIL answer to? Superintendents of school districts is not the right answer. Is it the commissioner of education? The TEA? Exactly who? If I don't like why they are doing, do I not have a vote for someone in office that can affect change on Manor Road?
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"If they’re a state agency they need to act like one and comply with the prerequisites and duties that any other state agency has."
In what ways does this require to act differently than they have in the past?
Since they are a state agency, who does the UIL answer to? Superintendents of school districts is not the right answer. If it the commissioner of education? The TEA? Exactly who? If I don't like why they are doing, do I not have a vote for someone in office that can affect change on Manor Road?
^flag
I would say that the ultimate power would lie with our Texas Legislature! After all, they alone have the power of the pursebook and could summarily deny funding to the Good Folks over on Manor Road, thereby causing them to wither on the vine! z^
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^flag
I would say that the ultimate power would lie with our Texas Legislature! After all, they alone have the power of the pursebook and could summarily deny funding to the Good Folks over on Manor Road, thereby causing them to wither on the vine! z^
Therein lies another issue. The bulk, maybe all, of their funding comes from their members through membership fees and sports playoff games.
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Great point Doc! ^TD
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Based on the court's opinion, I think the UIL falls under UT. So, I would think that they are governed by the President of UT, and thus the Board of Regents, who are appointed by the Governor. Anybody want to give Perry a call?
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TASO will not now, nor will they ever win in any legal battle against the University of Texas. And if you think politicians will become involved on our behalf putting themselves in a position to have an opponent say they went against the Longhorns for football officials, you are wrong.
At what point in this legal battle will TASO become liable for the UIL legal fees?
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Why is UIL a part of UT? Did UT create the UIL? Seems like a conflict of interest to be the governing body for high school sports. Shouldn't the other Texas colleges be able to go out and create their own leagues and then give schools a choice as to which league they wanted to participate in. Does this not give UT an unfair advantage for recruiting? I am sure there are a lot of powerful people who didn't know that UIL was a part of UT. If we can get them on our side who knows what can happen.
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Cooter
It is extremely difficult to imagine a scenario where TASO could ever have to pay the UIL its fees. Typically, the loser does not pay the winner's fees, unless the lawsuit is baseless, which this is not. This lawsuit is simply tying to hold that the UIL exceeded its authority. Since no one, not even the UIL, knows what that authority is, this can not be a baseless lawsuit.
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Why is UIL a part of UT? Did UT create the UIL? Seems like a conflict of interest to be the governing body for high school sports. Shouldn't the other Texas colleges be able to go out and create their own leagues and then give schools a choice as to which league they wanted to participate in. Does this not give UT an unfair advantage for recruiting? I am sure there are a lot of powerful people who didn't know that UIL was a part of UT. If we can get them on our side who knows what can happen.
^flag
Great point! Under that premise, why shouldn't Texas A&M, Texas Tech, and UTEP be thrown into the mix of things as "regional sports administrators" right alongside UT and its infamous UIL?
The fact of the matter is that the UIL is an organization without any constitutional oversight. So just who is the tiphat: Good UIL Drs. boss? Exactly who is it that gives him his annual performance review and his salary increases? Can anyone provide us with a state organizational chart that shows who is the tiphat: Good UIL Drs. supervisor? The sad fact of the matter is that there is no one who is Dr. B's boss. He gets to exist in his own little world where no one, not even in state government, can totally tell him what to do, or when to do it. With no one in apparent authority to reel him in, he seemingly appears to be nothing more than an unchecked tinhorn dictator whose sole existence seems to be defined by the most recent court ruling. Dr. Breithaupt will now get the opportunity to stand in the well of the court as a defendent, probably right alongside his hand-picked Director of Officials. The "new" lawsuit will be aimed at either prosecuting the tiphat: Good UIL Dr. and possibly other UIL officials as individuals, and/or forcing the UIL's hand to act responsibly as the mandated state agency that it and the Appeals Court say that it apparently is! z^
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UIL appears to be part of UT's Division of Diversity and Community Engagement (DDCE) http://www.utexas.edu/diversity/ddce/strategic_list.php
That suggests Dr B answers to Dr. Gregory J. Vincent, Vice President for Diversity and Community Engagement
http://www.utexas.edu/diversity/about/profiles.php
General info re UIL records and budget http://www.uil.utexas.edu/policy/constitution/subchapters/10_11subP_R.pdf
UIL salary info:
http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/government-employee-salaries/the-university-of-texas-at-austin/departments/uil/1528/
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How does the TEA and the commissioner of education figure into this? Amazing that something created to facilitate debate amongst the public schools has grown into a regulatory "agency" without legislative oversight or sunset review. ^flag
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UIL appears to be part of UT's Division of Diversity and Community Engagement (DDCE) http://www.utexas.edu/diversity/ddce/strategic_list.php
That suggests Dr B answers to Dr. Gregory J. Vincent, Vice President for Diversity and Community Engagement
http://www.utexas.edu/diversity/about/profiles.php
General info re UIL records and budget http://www.uil.utexas.edu/policy/constitution/subchapters/10_11subP_R.pdf
UIL salary info:
http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/government-employee-salaries/the-university-of-texas-at-austin/departments/uil/1528/
Any idea of when this became effective. If you click on the tab for UIL it shows the UIL website to be moving to the UT site as of 9-1-2010.
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From the court's opinion (regarding the UIL as a part of UT):
section 33.083 of the education code, entitled “Interscholastic Leagues,” specifically addresses the
existence and status of the UIL, stating:
(b) The [UIL] is a part of The University of Texas at Austin and must submit its rules
and procedures to the commissioner [of education] for approval or disapproval. The
funds belonging to the [UIL] shall be deposited with The University of Texas at
Austin for the benefit of the league and shall be subject to audits by The University
of Texas at Austin, The University of Texas System, and the state auditor. Copies
of annual audits shall be furnished, on request, to members of the legislature.
Tex. Educ. Code Ann. § 33.083(b) (emphasis added); see also id. § 5.001(3) (West Supp. 2009)
(defining “Commissioner” as “the commissioner of education”).
Based on the plain language of section 33.083, the UIL is a component part of The
University of Texas at Austin (“UT-Austin”).
- Now, I think TASO's argument, in addition to those previously laid out, is that since the UIL is a state agency the UIL must follow formal rule making procedures. Not sure if those were followed in this case.
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They were not gettingfat. Nice points.
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August 30, 2010
One of the UIL's defenses on the TASO litigation is their position of sovereign immunity. On Friday the Third Court of Appeals in Austin issued a decision that said the UIL is a part of University of Texas, Austin and is protected from litigation. As a result, our suit against the UIL as it was originally filed was dismissed.
Many have incorrectly assumed that this ruling ends our campaign to protect TASO's status as the only independent provider of High School Sports Officials both to the UIL and other Texas High School Associations.
The legal status of the UIL is not the root cause of our concern. Whether the UIL is a state agency or a volunteer organization of public school districts makes no difference. The decision by the Third Court of Appeals very clearly states that in this ruling, the court makes no comment on the merit of the facts of the suit. They go on to explain that even though the UIL cannot be sued as a State Agency, TASO should have sued individuals acting in their official capacity.
Over the past few weeks, I have had several meetings with Dr. Breithaupt and Tony Timmons to discuss settlement possibilities. Even though an agreement has not been reached, all parties agree that progress is taking place. The obvious questions after last week's ruling is can those discussions continue.
In a meeting of the TASO President's Council yesterday, your President's unanimously approved filing a new law suit today as specified in the Third Court of Appeals ruling. However, before taking that action, they directed me to contact the Dr. Breithaupt and see if he was willing to continue our settlement discussions. I am pleased to report that he was both willing and anxious to continue to seek a resolution to this dispute.
As a result the discussions to reach a mutually acceptable agreement between TASO and the UIL will continue and TASO will not be filing a new suit as long as the UIL does not initiate their registration process of TASO members.
Both the UIL and TASO are hopeful that this dispute can be resolved quickly for the betterment of TASO members, UIL member schools and most importantly the Texas High School Student Athlete.
Regards,
Mike
Michael Fitch
Executive Director
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I knew we had the right guy as E.D.!!! Way to go Mike!
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I agree, with one caveat. Negotiations are great but UIL has a history of not living up to what they say.
The other caveat, I think Timmons has to go!
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I agree, with one caveat. Negotiations are great but UIL has a history of not living up to what they say.
The other caveat, I think Timmons has to go!
I agree with both of those. One should be cautious when negotiating with snakes.
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Replace TT with Mike Fitch, then perhaps we have a deal.
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I am still not happy about paying a registration fee to simply offer my services to the local school district. Until the Band contest judge, orchestra concert judge, science fair judge, etc., also have to pay to judge school contests, we should not have to pay either.
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Definitely NOT in the TT fan club but they can hire whomever they want. As long as he is coordinating only and I do not have to answer to him in anyway, so be it. I can handle that.
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^flag
I hope that this "Neville Chamberlain" approach on the part of TASO doesn't end up exploding in our proverbial face! All that you really need to do is to examine the track record of the UIL since Breithaupt has been annointed as its ED. Since the incumbancy of King Charles, virtually nothing has been done favorable to TASO. Why should we expect any more out of him now? I'm sorry, Gentlemen! But he has a discernible track record. He had a hidden agenda~ but now that agenda of his has become most overt! He won't rest until he gets his way, and that is the total annihilation and dissolution of TASO. Isn't it rather strange that nothing of this magnitude ever occurred on the UIL watches of Drs. Marshall or Farney~ only King Charles!
I too believe that Fitch has the potential to be a great UIL Director of Officiating, but you can rest assured that the Good UIL Dr. will never ever attempt to replace or dismiss his Dancing Monkey.
But the real question remains: If the 32 TASO Football Chapter Presidents all mandated their approval for the continuation of the lawsuit, then why is the State going against their wishes and seeking some form of reconcilliation with the "pit of snakes?" What possible bag of crumbs is TASO expecting from the UIL by placating to their desire to forestall the lawsuit?
And exactly how does Mr. Schumann feel about this particular course of action?
At this point, I am beginning to feel more pessimistic than ever about the future of TASO. I, for one, will continue to pray for its preservation. Without it, Texas high school officiating will never really be quite the same! z^
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I agree with arbitrator... I feel sold out by TASO. Once the UIL gets an inch they will take a mile mark my words. Unfortunately the TASO powers that be have a very short term mentality. I will not get on my lack of a long term vision soap box here. The true effects of this move will be measured in years not weeks. No more gate fees. I am glad some of you SR. members got to take advantage of those. Every one of you that gets a gate check this year that is over $100 make sure and frame it. It will be the last one you see.
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I just wish we could go back to the 2000 pay scale, until you work a game and received $1200 you just don't know how good you got it. Funny thing is that the UIL knew they made a mistake and still honored it. TASO and Fitch I believe are putting up a good front but I believe they know they are whooped. Nice bluff, but what if the UIL calls??? Who is gonna pay for this round of the lawsuit Fitch? I would wait until January before I started the next round of litigation, gotta get the dues in to pay for it. Cmon the UIL is smarter than that!!
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Or maybe Dr. B is more scared of having himself named in the suit. Is UT willing to foot the bill for that? UT may be getting tired of all this negitive publicity. Until we know what discussions are taking place it may be that UIL just will attend the TASO board meetings and be more active in TASO decisions. I know that UIL has always had an invitation to the meetings but from what I gather those seats were often not being used.
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^flag
I hope that this "Neville Chamberlain" approach on the part of TASO doesn't end up exploding in our proverbial face! All that you really need to do is to examine the track record of the UIL since Breithaupt has been annointed as its ED. Since the incumbancy of King Charles, virtually nothing has been done favorable to TASO. Why should we expect any more out of him now? I'm sorry, Gentlemen! But he has a discernible track record. He had a hidden agenda~ but now that agenda of his has become most overt! He won't rest until he gets his way, and that is the total annihilation and dissolution of TASO. Isn't it rather strange that nothing of this magnitude ever occurred on the UIL watches of Drs. Marshall or Farney~ only King Charles!
I too believe that Fitch has the potential to be a great UIL Director of Officiating, but you can rest assured that the Good UIL Dr. will never ever attempt to replace or dismiss his Dancing Monkey.
But the real question remains: If the 32 TASO Football Chapter Presidents all mandated their approval for the continuation of the lawsuit, then why is the State going against their wishes and seeking some form of reconcilliation with the "pit of snakes?" What possible bag of crumbs is TASO expecting from the UIL by placating to their desire to forestall the lawsuit?
And exactly how does Mr. Schumann feel about this particular course of action?
At this point, I am beginning to feel more pessimistic than ever about the future of TASO. I, for one, will continue to pray for its preservation. Without it, Texas high school officiating will never really be quite the same! z^
Not that it matters in your argument, but just to clarify. It's not 32 TASO Football Chapter Presidents that voted...I believe it is the 6 TASO sport presidents. I'm sure that they discussed this, and that Mike has their blessing to exhaust all efforts to keep this out of the court system if possible. The only guarantee in the courts is that the lawyers will get paid...with money from you and me.
Mike isn't going to negotiate a merger of TASO into the UIL. The only way this negotiation works is if TASO gets to remain independent and UIL gets out of the officiating business. It surely is cheaper to trash what has been done and layoff Timmons than it is to pay attorneys for another costly and long court battle. Besides, if Timmons stays in place and the UIL wins, there is an immediate crisis because of the mass retirements that would result--especially in the Football division.
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Not that it matters in your argument, but just to clarify. It's not 32 TASO Football Chapter Presidents that voted...I believe it is the 6 TASO sport presidents. I'm sure that they discussed this, and that Mike has their blessing to exhaust all efforts to keep this out of the court system if possible. The only guarantee in the courts is that the lawyers will get paid...with money from you and me.
Mike isn't going to negotiate a merger of TASO into the UIL. The only way this negotiation works is if TASO gets to remain independent and UIL gets out of the officiating business. It surely is cheaper to trash what has been done and layoff Timmons than it is to pay attorneys for another costly and long court battle. Besides, if Timmons stays in place and the UIL wins, there is an immediate crisis because of the mass retirements that would result--especially in the Football division.
^flag
Regardless of who gave Fitch their blessing to pursue this procedure, it is still not very logical to negotiate with someone who has had their knife at your throat for such a very long time. The intent of Dr. B., all along, has been to place high school officiating under the umbrella of the UIL much like the plurality of other states. This is chiefly because:
1. It places the UIL in full control of all facets of officiating and would be in full position to forestall any union-like activity on the part of the officials or their leadership.
2. The UIL would be in position to do away with the gate fee structure and major mileage modifications much as they have already done in 1204 for the other sports.
3. It is no secret that Breithaupt has long coveted bringing Texas into the National Federation fold, thereby making the Federation 100% compliant with all state organizations belonging.
There has been more than a little speculation that the Good UIL Dr. has been promised a seat on the National Frederation Board if he were to bring Texas to the Federation table. Now he will tell you that Texas will never ever veer away from NCAA football rules, but that being said, how many other promises has he not kept in his illustrious career? Mind you, he has a track record and an agenda.
And to add insult to injury, if you think that the Good Dr. is going to displace TT, then I'd like to offer you a plot of ground for sale that has the San Jacinto Monument on it. Those two are virtually joined at the hip, and are the very best of friends. How do you think TT got all of those state basketball tournament assignments?
In this whole foray of events, I'd still like to know how Gary Schumann feels about this course of action. Like so many of us who have diligently served TASO for so many years, I just hope and pray that we aren't being sold down the river by our state leadership! z^
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Any lawyer worth his salt is going to tell you that it is better to negotiate out of court than to spend time and money going back and forth, filing, appealing, over and over. I would believe Mr. Schumann would agree.
UIL knows that TASO has footing with their lawsuit, so they need to listen. They also are working on a very tight budget, obviously with all those high paid directors, so they should be looking for a way to mitigate lawyer's expenses. My main issue with any negotiation between TASO and UIL is that it must be in a contract. The UIL must not pull the Trojan horse routine. I know Mike is smart enough to not let this happen. They may think they can do a bait and switch and get what they want in the end, the death of TASO and an organization that works for officials first.
Another alternative is that TASO winds up being a football only entity, let the other sports go to the UIL. Football, as the UIL and superintendents will agree, is not the problem. It is all the other sports that seem to be jealous of the fees officials collect. That is fixed by either not doing anything (which got us where we are), raising fees for other sports, or taking football to a flat fee. I must say, I could care less how much a baseball umpire makes doing a game when there are 12 people in the stands. They deserve a fair fee, but they are not going to be able to negotiate the same as what football officials get when the same school gets 8,000 to their games every Friday night.
An agreeable scenario would be for TASO to remain as a separate entity, but work more closely with the UIL. TASO could supply all training as they have in the past. That's what they are good at. UIL could do the registration (for a very minimal fee) that simply means that an official is TASO certified and has passed a background check. For that matter, UIL can keep the points and do the administrative part, they are probably better at that anyway. TASO has historically done an abysmal job of keeping an accurate database. (Partially in their defense, they can only keep records that they have received and some chapters are terrible at keeping and reporting data on their members). This can work, but a major obstacle is TT. There are not many football guys willing to work with that guy, with his posturing, yelling and general inability to bring a consensus (sounds like a jr high coach?). I doubt he could sell water to someone in the Mojave desert without POURING someone off.
One thing we all have to remember about the fee structure for football, anything the UIL wants, they get. They wanted registration for officials, and even after all of our collective efforts to keep that from happening, the legislative council passed it unanimously. If they want to go to a flat fee for the football, it would be nothing more than the stroke of a pen for Dr. B. He knows it, and we need to realize it. Let's work together, and we can make it a better organization, keep a portion of gate receipts in the fee structure, and ensure that we keep using NCAA rules (the coaches would raise hell if UIL tried to go to NF). If the UIL wants all sports other than football, as far as I'm concerned, they can have them. Those other sports need to get their feces coagulated and get their members to fully support TASO.
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Mike isn't going to negotiate a merger of TASO into the UIL. The only way this negotiation works is if TASO gets to remain independent and UIL gets out of the officiating business. It surely is cheaper to trash what has been done and layoff Timmons than it is to pay attorneys for another costly and long court battle. Besides, if Timmons stays in place and the UIL wins, there is an immediate crisis because of the mass retirements that would result--especially in the Football division.
So - TASO loses the lawsuit, goes into negotiation with UIL, and you honestly believe that now the UIL will have to get out of officiating business? Really? And who is more able to withstand another costly and long court battle - TASO or the University of Texas? And oh yeah, TASO demands Timmons be laid off.
Thats not what the E.D. is going to demand - otherwise he would be laughed out of the room. I applaud Mr. Fitch for negotiating - TASO will give some ground - UIL will give some ground - that's what negotiation is. And to those of you who feel this is your leadership selling you down the river - you just enjoy a fight and want to waller in it.
There will NOT be a mass retirement of football officials. If you think the sun will not come up without you in stripes, give it a try.
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So - TASO loses the lawsuit
In your opinion! All the ruling does is define who and how TASO needs to file their next lawsuit. The reasons it was filed are very valid, and the UIL and their lawyers know it. That's why they need to negotiate.
And, you need to find out how much money TASO has in the bank. It may surprise you. They have more expendable cash than the UIL, who has operated in the red for years, when you take out the money given to them by the TEA earmarked for drug testing. I, for one, would rather see TASO spend every dime of it fighting the UIL than to fold up and go away. Who gets that money then? It cannot go to individuals and it will never go to the UIL, so we might as well give it to the lawyers in this fight.
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In your opinion! All the ruling does is define who and how TASO needs to file their next lawsuit. The reasons it was filed are very valid, and the UIL and their lawyers know it. That's why they need to negotiate.
And, you need to find out how much money TASO has in the bank. It may surprise you. They have more expendable cash than the UIL, who has operated in the red for years, when you take out the money given to them by the TEA earmarked for drug testing. I, for one, would rather see TASO spend every dime of it fighting the UIL than to fold up and go away. Who gets that money then? It cannot go to individuals and it will never go to the UIL, so we might as well give it to the lawyers in this fight.
:bOW :bOW :bOW
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Any lawyer worth his salt is going to tell you that it is better to negotiate out of court than to spend time and money going back and forth, filing, appealing, over and over. I would believe Mr. Schumann would agree.
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An agreeable scenario would be for TASO to remain as a separate entity, but work more closely with the UIL. TASO could supply all training as they have in the past. That's what they are good at. UIL could do the registration (for a very minimal fee) that simply means that an official is TASO certified and has passed a background check. For that matter, UIL can keep the points and do the administrative part, they are probably better at that anyway. TASO has historically done an abysmal job of keeping an accurate database. (Partially in their defense, they can only keep records that they have received and some chapters are terrible at keeping and reporting data on their members). .....
This is excellent advice to TASO and the UIL. There is reason to believe the UIL will be willing to do this. The UIL registration fee would be negotiated but the structure and duties you describe will work if TASO is willing to present that as a compromise. I hope you are in a position to present this to TASO leadership. I have shared similar suggestions to my TASO representative. It is doable.
One thing we all have to remember about the fee structure for football, anything the UIL wants, they get. They wanted registration for officials, and even after all of our collective efforts to keep that from happening, the legislative council passed it unanimously. If they want to go to a flat fee for the football, it would be nothing more than the stroke of a pen for Dr. B. He knows it, and we need to realize it. Let's work together, and we can make it a better organization, keep a portion of gate receipts in the fee structure, and ensure that we keep using NCAA rules (the coaches would raise hell if UIL tried to go to NF). If the UIL wants all sports other than football, as far as I'm concerned, they can have them. Those other sports need to get their feces coagulated and get their members to fully support TASO.
I think most of us understand that there is no scenario that does not include the UIL as part of Texas High School football. There is a possible doomsday scenario in that does not include TASO. TASO will be working with the UIL if it doesn't commit suicide by being unwilling to negotiate in good faith. The training and certification process for Texas High School football officials is a niche that TASO can and should fill. Don't worry so much about UIL registration of officials aside from a fair and reasonable registration fee. TASO should solidify and strengthen the education, training and certification process for football officials as the best provider of these services. I believe the UIL would be happy to agree with this.
We aren't going to win the battle to stop UIL registration of officials but TASO can own the training and certification process. The open question is how much will it cost and how much should it cost, but in all honesty every member of every TASO chapter should ask the same question about their local chapter dues and TASO state dues... about what is reasonable and how is the money being used?
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In your opinion!
Not gonna split hairs with you - but the lawsuit was dismissed - that's a loss. Yes, it can be filed again - correctly this time - maybe it should be. But the original lawsuit is a loss, regardless of what slant anyone wants to put on it.
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I say again, the lawsuit gave many of us at least 1 more season. For that reason alone it was a win in my mind. It also showed UIL we were not going to all rollover like our basketbal brothers did. That likely is motivating their wllingness to now work with us.
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"I say again, the lawsuit gave many of us at least 1 more season. "
You sell it short.
There really is a half glass full way of looking at this. The lawsuit went through an appellate process that bought an injunction allowing business as usual for one year. The dismissal left wide open a new suit against the individuals - a whole new legal process. Furthermore, it was written in such a way that a new suit is likely to survive a summary judgment motion - meaning the case would not be disposed of until a trial on the merits (could be years down the road).
The suit didn't just buy TASO one year, it bought TASO one MORE year (your statement without the "least" component to it).
TASO comes to the table with the threat of a new suit against the individuals that likely would make it to a trial. Aside from the: "Yes, the attorney general will likely defend the named individuals, no the AG's office doesn't care about the expense of litigating it." TASO should not enter the room with its tail between the legs.
He says from his soap box.
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:bOW :bOW :bOW
I understand the first words out of the District Director's mouth last night at the Tyler Chapter meeting were "we lost the lawsuit." Is that correct Rick?
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I understand the first words out of the District Director's mouth last night at the Tyler Chapter meeting were "we lost the lawsuit." Is that correct Rick?
Actually his first words were telling the crew that worked the ESPN game they did a good job. However, he did say they "lost the lawsuit" but then said it could be refiled against Breithaupt individually just not against the UIL.
If you want to deal in semantics you can. The lawsuit was ruled in favor of UIL on sovereign immunity not on basis of fact. Either way, we are at the point of talking with UIL which is where it should have been 2 years ago. Who is to blame for that, I do not know. As I said before, we need something in writing from UIL because words have a way of changing down the line.
Rick
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Rick -
Was that the game with the "pretty" blue bean bags?
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Yeah,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, that was the one!
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^flag
So by virtue of the recent ruling by the Third Court of Appeals, a lot of folks are saying that "we/TASO" lost! If you read between the lines, it gives TASO another vehicle in which to perfect its legal action against the UIL. The Appeals Court made no comment about or even bothered to mention the facts of the case. They only opined that the UIL as a state agency was indeed entitled to its plea of sovereign immunity. It furthermore pointed out that TASO could go forward with its legal action by naming the individual or individuals within the UIL who may have egregiously acted outside of the scope of their authority. I'm sorry: but I fail to see that this translates in any way into a loss, but much rather as just a legal course correction! Mr. Schumann's published Saturday comments from the Houston Chronicle seemed to be moreso upbeat and optimistic.
The next thing we know, we're given the dictum by TASO State that we are going to pursue this all from a position of negotiation with the UIL. We have been given a trump card by the Court and are failing to fully take advantage of it.
It is certainly not a well-guarded secret that the UIL is mired in some financial trouble of its own. That is why they are pursuing the officiating registration fees and increasing participation in the UIL playoffs. That translates into money in the bank for them; money that is sorely needed by them in order to stem the rising debt that has been incurred by the UIL. The lawsuit should duly go forward and name Breithaupt and Timmons as defendents as the Appeals Court suggested. This forces the "Dynamic Duo" into the deposition and the witness chairs to answer all of the hard questions that all of us in TASO would love to hear in their labored attempt to answer them. It could very well force the good UIL Dr. to try to possibly rely on the legal doctrine of respondeat superior. To that end, the Good Dr. would have to say that he was ordered by "higher-ups" to pursue his course of action against TASO. In order to keep his rear out of hot water, he might just go there!
Under the Open Records Act, the financial records of both the UIL and the UT Department that houses it would certainly come into play. The Good UIL Dr. can't seem to keep his stories straight as it is. When the financial records from the UIL are subpoenaed and brought into light, what would make a reasonable man think that this would in any way improve the Good UIL Drs. memory? It just lays even more stumbling blocks before him.
If TASO absolutely must give in to the process of negotiation, they should do so from a logistical position of giving the UIL only so much time to adhere to our demands. Namely, they should be that the UIL would receive only a token registration of no more than $10.00 per official annually, and that would be for registering for one or twenty sports. I feel that the UIL should summarily dissolve the other officiating divisions that it has so recently set up and sign a statement to the effect that they are getting out of the officiating business on a permanent basis, and will make no further attempt to organize or even assign officials to any contest.
When putting itself into the unenviable position of having to negotiate with rattlesnakes, TASO needs to carry a big stick, a shovel, and a shotgun! And if we must negotiate, please make sure that Mr. Schumann is on the negotiation team. We must negotiate from a position of strength and not go into this seeking common ground with a known adversary whose agenda has been to stretch out our necks, cut our throats, and tell us how good it's going to feel! They should know by now and all too well, that TASO has the ability to squarely place them behind the 8-Ball. And if TASO loses, then Mr. Timmons can start with his stated crusade to go from door to door, if need be, in order to recruit the new officials to help the UIL in stemming the tide in the severe projected shortfall in the number of high school officials in the State of Texas! z^
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<<<Wonders if there should be a vote amongst the brethren to determine if we want to push the suit forward or negotiate? I say push the suit forward.
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I would normally agree to push forward with the suit, but I am also curious as to what the UIL would negotiate. If we don't like what they have to say in the process of negotiating, then we still have the lawuit to throw at the individuals.
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I would normally agree to push forward with the suit, but I am also curious as to what the UIL would negotiate. If we don't like what they have to say in the process of negotiating, then we still have the lawuit to throw at the individuals.
I agree, talk first. We had tried that before the lawsuit but UIL did not want to sit down. You can always go down the legal route if needed.
Probably a good thing some of us are not involved in the negotiations................................. yEs:
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I agree, talk first. We had tried that before the lawsuit but UIL did not want to sit down. You can always go down the legal route if needed.
Probably a good thing some of us are not involved in the negotiations................................. yEs:
I would think that Dr. B would not want to be name individually in a lawsuit. To avoid that he knows that TASO must be happy with any resolution from a negotiation.
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Guys, before you work yourselves into a frenzy over the prospects of refiling the lawsuit, you might want some lawyer, smarter than me, to explain the rule of law concerning "In the course and scope of his duties" as it would apply to Dr. B and Mr. T. AND, as you read the 3rd Court's opinion, please do not fall into the trap of "reading between the lines." Appellate judges are not in the habit of putting hidden messages - when they write the majority opinion, they just write it. When they are writing a dissenting opinion, they are about as plain spoken as a Judge can be. There's old expression out of the West Texas oil fields that talks about throwing money down a dry hole. I understand the position of those of you want to re-file our lawsuit while the iron is hot, but I hope that decision will be made not as a knee-jerk reaction, but after a long and thoughtful reflective process, and after having had ALL possible legal ramifications explored.
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Guys, before you work yourselves into a frenzy over the prospects of refiling the lawsuit, you might want some lawyer, smarter than me, to explain the rule of law concerning "In the course and scope of his duties" as it would apply to Dr. B and Mr. T. AND, as you read the 3rd Court's opinion, please do not fall into the trap of "reading between the lines." Appellate judges are not in the habit of putting hidden messages - when they write the majority opinion, they just write it. When they are writing a dissenting opinion, they are about as plain spoken as a Judge can be. There's old expression out of the West Texas oil fields that talks about throwing money down a dry hole. I understand the position of those of you want to re-file our lawsuit while the iron is hot, but I hope that decision will be made not as a knee-jerk reaction, but after a long and thoughtful reflective process, and after having had ALL possible legal ramifications explored.
Well said fart.
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I think at this point I am grateful for Fitch and the work he is doing trying to negotiate this thing out. I trust him and feel he is right guy to have there working on this.
I like Docs ideas on this situation and it is much in line with my feelings as a good way to resolve this and work with the UIL in the long run.
Even though I have to keep an eye on this I am much more concerned about pre snap routines, keys, subs, man zone ball, etc etc etc.
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Any word on the points of negotiation or the mood? We need an update!!!! eAt&
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Based on my experience, negotiations of this type take time. This is not something that gets done over a two phone calls. They have to schedule a conference with all the parties, including attorneys. Talk things though, go back and think, get together again and continue this process as long as they are making progress on the issues. Since this involves control issues more than just a monetary settlement, no one should reasonably expect to hear anything for 4 - 6 weeks. Sooner would be great, but not expected. Regular updates from TASO would not be helpful because these types of things are very fluid. The only update you would get is "the parties are still talking, more later."
Just go about your season for now.
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I was just told by a very close friend of TT that on 9/6/10, the UIL will begin registering officials. According to him, the local chapters will choose which organization to affilliate with, but that all individual officials must register with UIL.
Does anyone know the particulars? Is there a registration fee? Is this a result of the recent negotiations?
What's up?
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I can't wait!!!! Tony, show me where and when and we will get the troops behind you. To hell with TASO and Ray Parker......Oh wait ain't he in jail. LMAO
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From far and away, what do the kids think?
After all, that's why we do what we do, right?
What a bunch of pathetic and needless political bulltwaddle.
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From far and away, what do the kids think?
After all, that's why we do what we do, right?
What a bunch of pathetic and needless political bulltwaddle.
I dopubt the kids even know it is going on. Most adults don't even know it is going on. Luckily for you , you don't have to know about it either as you are not required to click on the topic.
I would think even Canadians would have a basic understanding of rights and freedom. That is what this is about, not "politics".
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If yer getting to the point of suing each other, hang 'em up. Life's too important.
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Some things are worth fighting for. Surrender is not in some of our vocabularires
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We aren't like the Frenchie Frenchmen...we are willing to fight for what we believe in.
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If yer getting to the point of suing each other, hang 'em up. Life's too important.
That is the sad part of all of this.
A lot of us will hang it up!
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Just a wild guess on my part, but my money is on TASO heading back down to the courthouse Tuesday. You cannot trust the people on Manor Road.
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Just a wild guess on my part, but my money is on TASO heading back down to the courthouse Tuesday. You cannot trust the people on Manor Road.
^flag
TexDoc: I as well as a lot of other TASO people sure hope and pray that the continuance of the UIL lawsuit comes back to fruition! We've invested far too much of our resources and our energy in TASO to see a group on tinhorn wannabes swoop down and attempt to control this great avocation of ours! My mantra is to fight for our beloved organization against this UIL tyranny or to die figuratively in the process! z^
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I was just told by a very close friend of TT that on 9/6/10, the UIL will begin registering officials. According to him, the local chapters will choose which organization to affilliate with, but that all individual officials must register with UIL.
Does anyone know the particulars? Is there a registration fee? Is this a result of the recent negotiations?
What's up?
Well if this is true, as we are headed into week 3 of Texas High School Football, I just wonder where they will get the officials to cover ALL the games in Texas. A change like this when the season is underway is just acidnine. Kinda later to knock on doors. I just dont see this happening. I trust our TASO leadership, local leadership, and loyalty of the hundreds of other officials to stick together and make the right decisions.
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If this is true, I suspect all that is happening is they are opening up FREE registration. An individual might be permitted to go online and "register" with UIL but it would not mean much unless your whole Chapter decided to switch. They are likely looking ahead to Winter sports and want to get started on implementing whatever they expect they will eventually end up with. That will probably include some sort of "registration" and for those Chapters which choose to go UIL, perhaps more.
And then again, this may just be pointless speculation.
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Just completed my registration to the UIL. Its been a long time coming, but it is finally here. Free at last oh free at last. Let freedom ring. Tony Timmons you go get busy doing your thang and all will follow. Damn this feels good to tell you all so.
TxMike, Arbitrator, TxDox and Jason What you going to do now???? TASO got you good!!!!
See ya later, I got games to work!!!!! YES SIR FREE AT LAST
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Like I said...
From their website: (Emphasis is theirs)
Registration for officials wishing to officiate with UIL contests will be available immediately. The FREE online registration process consists of two steps. The first step is the creation of an official’s profile associating each official with an approved chapter for directory information. This information will be used to communicate needed sports related information and assign playoff games/matches if necessary. The second step will include completion of the Officials Compliance Program (OCP) as outlined in section 1204 (o) of the C&CR, which is available on the UIL website.
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^flag
Mr. Fitch/Mr. Schumann: It now appears that we have acquiesed long enough with the Manor Road Crowd. It is now time to go ahead in dropping the bomb and refiling the suit, and reupping the UIL registration restraining order! Let's start getting busy! z^
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We aren't like the Frenchie Frenchmen...we are willing to fight for what we believe in.
The point several from outside Texas (and a lot inside Texas) are making is that this lawsuit is making us a JOKE. We were once the premiere high school officiating location - now we are a big reality show. It will take a long time to regain our reputation after this mess.
As the all wise RAMBO would say to TASO - "LET IT GO." TASO will not beat the University of Texas - cover up your TASO tattoos long enough to take an objective look. TASO lost - if you don't like the result, leave. If you don't like the TV show - change the channel, etc.
Again - I hope everyone will stay and give it a chance - we need veterans - but the "slip and fall" lawsuit mentality is starting to grain on a lot of folks.
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1 question for you. Have you ever met or heard TT in person?
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1 question for you. Have you ever met or heard TT in person?
Yes I have. Not my favorite person - but passionate about his position. Twice when he was making the rounds last year to chapter meetings. After UIL spoke, TASO was given a chance to speak - Ray Parker did a good job too.
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If that is your impression of him then I can understand your willingness to "go along". Perhaps I am not as good a judge of people as you because I could never be part of something that gave him ANY control over me at all.
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If that is your impression of him then I can understand your willingness to "go along". Perhaps I am not as good a judge of people as you because I could never be part of something that gave him ANY control over me at all.
Mike - if you lump an entire organization based on one person - or assume everyone in the organization is the same as that person - then the perception of TASO is we are all cruising city parks this Labor Day. I'm sure you have seen the accolades and awards given to Dr. Charles B over the years. I trust him to do that which is right - including a change in TTs position.
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I am not lumping them all together. I am sure the rank and file folks there are doing their best. I also have great respect for Cliff O. Used to have the same for B until this episode, where, all of the sudden, after years of coming to our state meetings and telling us how great we are and how thankful he is for us, all of the sudden he wants to dump us. That made me question his integrity. As for TT....the record and the video speak for themselves.
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Mike--any idea of when we are going to hear from TASO? I would like to know if the registration process that UIL has opened up today is recommended by Fitch. Is it a part of the negotiation?
Additionally, the previously approved UIL new payscale is supposed to go into effect November 1. Does that include Week 10 football games including subvarsity? Playoffs? Are playoff officials going to have to be UIL officials?
I'm sure these questions will be answered--but it's not like Mike to let UIL beat him to the punch. There must be some wrangling going on behind the curtain.
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Mike - if you lump an entire organization based on one person - or assume everyone in the organization is the same as that person - then the perception of TASO is we are all cruising city parks this Labor Day. I'm sure you have seen the accolades and awards given to Dr. Charles B over the years. I trust him to do that which is right - including a change in TTs position.
^flag
Hate to say it but the tiphat: Good UIL Dr. was bad news even years ago when I was Pres of the Houston TASO Basketball Chapter. It was at that juncture where we could definitely see him attempting to play both ends against the middle and advocating the abolition of the varsity basketball gate structure. Bill Farney or Bailey Marshall were never that way. Yes, Good Time Charlie has always been a vocal proponent of telling us what an indespensible organization that TASO is, and an absolute master at trying to stick the pig knife in our backs at every opportune moment.
TASO might well lose this lawsuit, but we'll never know unless we try to ferret the truth out the Manor Road Crowd. And you can continue to rest assured of one thing: the tiphat: Good UIL Dr. will still have no respect for TASO, win, lose, or draw. And there is absolutely one thing that you can rest assured of: the tiphat: Good UIL Dr. has no intention of firing his Dancing Monkey! They are just way too much alike and are virtual clones of one another! Sort of like Austin Power's Dr. Evil and Mini-Me!
It is all too apparent that the UIL is now using the same modus operandi to go after football just like they did in basketball; tiphat: The Good UIL Dr. and his Dancing Monkey will now be invited with opened arms to offer up their dribbling oratory at the various chapter meetings of those weak-kneed TASO football chapters. And such will be the beginning of the UIL's "slash-and-burn" and "divide-and-conquer" strategy that was implemented in their semi-successful takeover attempt of basketball! I would much rather just offer up my retirement and call it a wonderful career under TASO, than to be represented by the UIL ilk.
TASO has only one viable option left: to fight and to fight diligently for it's survival and for the livlihood of those of us who have cared to foster the officiating ideals that TASO has so greatly helped to instill within its membership from day one! z^
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Just completed my registration to the UIL. Its been a long time coming, but it is finally here. Free at last oh free at last. Let freedom ring. Tony Timmons you go get busy doing your thang and all will follow. Damn this feels good to tell you all so.
TxMike, Arbitrator, TxDox and Jason What you going to do now???? TASO got you good!!!!
See ya later, I got games to work!!!!! YES SIR FREE AT LAST
So what are you going to do when UIL starts taking things away from you they promised. What steps can you take if you want change in the UIL leadership? With TASO, we get to run for a TASO leadership position or cast a vote for someone we want leading us. Good luck with that with UIL. You have no voice with the UIL. As for what I'm going to do. Not sure about all areas, but the schools around here will use whatever officials are available regardless of the UIL rules. If all there is are us TASO officials, they will use us regardless of UIL rules. The UIL can't keep an eye on every school, so I'm in no fear at all about losing any games.
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Lot's of time between now and Nov 1. No need to rush into this. IF, and that is a HUGE IF, come late-October and it looks like there is no way out, then guys can make their decisions. I know some are already signing up and so be it. I also hope that if Chapter leaders get asked for their "Top 25 %" come playoff time, they do not hold a person's decision against them, whichever it may be.
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I was just told by a very close friend of TT that on 9/6/10, the UIL will begin registering officials. According to him, the local chapters will choose which organization to affilliate with, but that all individual officials must register with UIL.
Does anyone know the particulars? Is there a registration fee? Is this a result of the recent negotiations?
What's up?
Tell your friend to let Timmons know he can stick it in his............................. ear.
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What happened to all the big talk about "staying together" and "they can't work all the games without us" and "Houston and Dallas won't ever join the UIL"? I guess with the little spanking you took in the lawsuit that the writing is on the all. TASO is done, stick a fork in em.
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Getting a little ahead of yourself there aren't you?
There has yet to be (and will not be at least until Nov 1) any varsity game officiated by UIL football officials.
Nobody knows yet how many people will find whatever the final resolution ( which not even you know what it will be), so unpleasant that they will choose to do something else next Summer and Fall.
Have Houston and Dallas decided to affilate with the UIL as a Chapter?
If TASO were to go away that would not necessarily and automatically be good for UIL, or more importantly, for the schools.
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What happened to all the big talk about "staying together" and "they can't work all the games without us" and "Houston and Dallas won't ever join the UIL"? I guess with the little spanking you took in the lawsuit that the writing is on the all. TASO is done, stick a fork in em.
^flag
Well, Ornery! It's simply great to see that the UIL is out to attract your type. You couldn't quite hack it in TASO so now you have found an organization that will obviously suit you to a tee. Heck, the Dancing Monkey has probably already favored you with a velvet seat on it's board of directors. You ought to be right at home polishing all of those UIL apples and reffing a lot of one-man mechanics! I still contend that the bulk of TASO football officials will either retire or strike despite the premise that the UIL is covertly hoping that the economy only worsens thereby forcing a number of the TASO people to have to stay in officiating and work their flat-fee games for no particular reason other than it's about the only feasible way for them to be able to help put bread on the table for their families! z^
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You couldn't quite hack it in TASO so now you have found an organization that will obviously suit you to a tee.
Maybe this will suit him in the beginning when the UIL is short good officials. But if he is a bad official he will find himself scooping out beans at the back of the wagon again and nothing the UIL does can change that.
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Just completed my registration to the UIL. Its been a long time coming, but it is finally here. Free at last oh free at last. Let freedom ring. Tony Timmons you go get busy doing your thang and all will follow. Damn this feels good to tell you all so.
TxMike, Arbitrator, TxDox and Jason What you going to do now???? TASO got you good!!!!
See ya later, I got games to work!!!!! YES SIR FREE AT LAST
I believe this can be best summed up in song. Make your own choice and live with it.
Now Daddy didn't like trouble, but if it came along
Everyone that knew him knew which side that he'd be on
He never was a hero, or this county's shinin' light
But you could always find him standing up
For what he thought was right
He'd say you've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything
You've got to be your own man not a puppet on a string
Never compromise what's right and uphold your family name
You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything
Now we might have been better off or owned a bigger house
If Daddy had done more givin' in or a little more backing down
But we always had plenty just living his advice
Whatever you do today you'll have to sleep with tonight
He'd say you've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything
You've got to be your own man not a puppet on a string
Never compromise what's right and uphold your family name
You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything
Now I know that things are different than they were in Daddy's days
But I still believe what makes a man really hasn't changed
You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything
You've got to be your own man not a puppet on a string
Never compromise what's right and uphold your family name
You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything
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^flag
Mr. Fitch/Mr. Schumann: It now appears that we have acquiesed long enough with the Manor Road Crowd. It is now time to go ahead in dropping the bomb and refiling the suit, and reupping the UIL registration restraining order! Let's start getting busy! z^
Arb, I'm sure Mr. Schumann is curious to see if you are going to step up and pay his share of the fine for filing a frivolous lawsuit if and when that day gets here? There's just so much more at stake here that who gets to assign your games and determines how much money we make. We're skating on thin ice, and if the ice breaks in a bad way, its only Mr. Schumann who gets both cold and wet!
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Oldfart -- no way any court rules this is a frivilous suit. It is okay to question whether the UIL has the authority to do what it is doing. No legal risk here, just spending of $. And if TASO is to be no more, I would rather spend the $ defending TASO's existence.
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What can be done with the money in the coffers anyway? Might as well spend it in a battle to survive.
Hard to see how this could be called frivolous in view of the appeals court decision that hinted at suing them individually as a way to a remedy. I don't want it to come to that either but UIL needs to be an honest negotiator here.
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I was think the same thing Mike. Someone explain to me how the league is conducting honest negotiations by resuming registration of officials and potentially holding the playoffs as hostage. :-X
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^flag
Negotiate for what? To see if the tiphat: Good UIL Dr. will advance us up the ladder on his playoff preference list? To see who can get the best numbers from his "take-a-number" dispenser to see who gets to kiss up to him first? If TASO has the funds, Fitch needs to advocate spending them on TASO's preservation. If the UIL wins, high school officiating in Texas will never quite be the same.
This is in no way a frivelous suit. Mr. Schumann would never dream of pressing the envelope if he even remotely felt that it was anywhere close to being frivelous. It may be a tough case to win, but we'll never really know until we try! So if you're absolutely content with the burial of TASO and beginning your period of indentured servitude to the Manor Road Crowd, then go for it! I only hope that you'll find it in your heart in joining me in standing up for TASO and it's total preservation! z^
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^flag
It may be a tough case to win, but we'll never really know until we try! So if you're absolutely content with the burial of TASO and beginning your period of indentured servitude to the Manor Road Crowd, then go for it! z^
It will be a tough case, you will lose. I will be content to have Dr B. and Tony Timmons as our new leaders. Screw TASO, they have never done anything for us, except take our dues. Now that they are being pressed and guys like Bud and others are gonna lose their huge salaries, TASO and the BIG CHAPTERS wanna save their hides. TOO LATE.
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I give up - I'll vote for TASO - just no more Kenny Rogers lyrics - PLEASE. That's a personal foul! LOL
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Arb, I'm sure Mr. Schumann is curious to see if you are going to step up and pay his share of the fine for filing a frivolous lawsuit if and when that day gets here? There's just so much more at stake here that who gets to assign your games and determines how much money we make. We're skating on thin ice, and if the ice breaks in a bad way, its only Mr. Schumann who gets both cold and wet!
Frivolous, really? Where and how does your great mind conceive of that as a response from the Appeals Court? The court defined the legal standing of the UIL and clarified how the action can proceed. Stating the action is frivolous is about as uneducated as announcing that TASO got their butts beat. If the action were frivolous the Appeals court would have dismissed it on lack of merit. I find it so hard to believe that someone would rather replace an organization that is run by the membership with a state entity. I mean we all know how government involvement improves everything.
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I give up - I'll vote for TASO - just no more Kenny Rogers lyrics - PLEASE. That's a personal foul! LOL
Aaron Tippit - not the Gambler on that one!
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"I find it so hard to believe that someone would rather replace an organization that is run by the membership with a state entity."
- More true words have never been spoken (typed)
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Just heard, the lawsuit is back on, refiled.
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From rgvsports.com:
TASO lawsuit against the UIL is dismissed
September 08, 2010 11:37 AM
From UIL Reports
New release from the UIL
AUSTIN — A lawsuit filed the by the Texas Association of Sports Officials against the University Interscholastic League was dismissed by the Third Court of Appeals in Austin on August 27, 2010. This decision reverses the trial court’s order, which denied UIL sovereign immunity.
“We are pleased that the authority for UIL member schools to make rules for high school contests was upheld,” said UIL Executive Director Dr. Charles Breithaupt. “We’re excited about the future for all officials and the member schools they serve. We have always supported and appreciated our officials in all our contests, and without them, we couldn’t have the quality of competition in our state. We look forward to working with them in the future in a positive manner.”
“The appellate court’s ruling makes clear that the UIL is the state agency that the legislature has entrusted with regulating school sports in Texas. The UIL will continue to live up to that mandate, seeking to make policy that best serves Texas schools, dedicated officials, and—most importantly—Texas student athletes,” said UIL attorney Greg Coleman.
The suit originated following the decision of the UIL Legislative Council to require games played by UIL member schools to be officiated by UIL registered officials. This rule change, in addition to a significant pay increase for officials was unanimously approved by the UIL Legislative Council in October 2009, and approved by the TEA Commissioner of Education in November 2009 as required by the Texas Education Code.
Originally intended to be effective for the beginning of the 2010-11 school year, the rule changes to Section 1204 of the UIL Constitution and Contest Rules and pay increase for officials are slated to go into effect on November 1, 2010.
“The UIL staff looks forward to working closely with the officials and UIL member schools to facilitate the smooth implementation of the rule changes approved by the Council,” said UIL Policy Director Dr. Mark Cousins.
The UIL will provide free registration for individuals desiring to officiate UIL member school contests, along with optional services that can be purchased if they choose.
Since the dismissal of its original lawsuit, TASO has filed a second lawsuit against UIL officials. A temporary restraining order requested by TASO that would have prevented the UIL from registering officials was denied Tuesday.
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^flag
My prayers are truly answered! TXMike: Please post the particulars of the new lawsuit as soon as you get them. And should I get them first, then I'll be all too happy to do the same! z^
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Arbitrator - you read the last line?
"Since the dismissal of its original lawsuit, TASO has filed a second lawsuit against UIL officials. A temporary restraining order requested by TASO that would have prevented the UIL from registering officials was denied Tuesday."
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Arbitrator - you read the last line?
"Since the dismissal of its original lawsuit, TASO has filed a second lawsuit against UIL officials. A temporary restraining order requested by TASO that would have prevented the UIL from registering officials was denied Tuesday."
^flag
Yeah, GF! I read it! But I'm all too thankful that the lawsuit will continue to go forward! Now we'll get to really see who is loyal to TASO; in essence to see just who amongst us will take advantage of that good ole free UIL registration! Any takers, y'all? z^
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Happy Days are here again... You see what happens when you entrust the UIL to negotiate? Don't stop until the good Dr. and the dancing monkey are forced to testify under oath.
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Here is the PDF that just showed up in my mailbox that I still don't know how UIL obtained, and BTW they sent me a text too... Now I know.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Arb, do you not understadn teh second lawsuit was dissmissed?
UIL just blasted a broadcast email to us. Again on my stolen email addresses.
Everyone needs to reply back to have your email address removed from their database. Are you sure the 2nd lawsuit was dismissed or just they wouldn't put a temp. restraining order on them. I belive the lawsuit will still move forward.
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The article said it was denied Tuesday? To me it is clear it failed. It makes since since we see UIL broadcast emails.
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Only the TRO was denied Tuesday.
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I am very frustrated by TASO's lack of communication regarding this series of events this week. Let us know what is going on!
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I agree with the BJ. Some communication could have gone out yesterday when this was complete.
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The timing is certainly suspect. This is just before the last Friday of regular season football play, and a week before the start of the playoffs.
From the ULI:
PLEASE READ CAREFULLY
To: All Sports Officials
From: UIL
Subject: Registration of Officials for UIL Athletic Contests
Date: September 7, 2010
Beginning November 1, 2010, section 1204 of the 2010-11 UIL Constitution and Contest Rules (C&CR), as approved by
the UIL Legislative Council, will be in effect. According to section 1204 (b) of the 2010-11 C&CR:
Section 1204: OFFICIALS
(b) REGISTRATION OF SPORTS OFFICIALS FOR UIL CONTESTS. UIL member schools shall use officials
registered with the UIL in all varsity contests. If non-UIL registered officials are to be used for any varsity
contests, the involved schools must receive prior approval from the UIL Director of Athletics. Exceptions:
(1) In individual sports (cross country, golf, swimming and diving, team tennis, tennis, track and field and
wrestling) schools may select and use non-UIL registered referees for contests.
(2) Unless mutually decided otherwise UIL member schools shall use UIL registered officials for non-varsity
games.
(3) Officials assigned to the playoffs shall be UIL-registered officials.
(4) Approved local officials organizations/chapters must have on file with UIL a copy of their constitutions, rules
and by-laws that outline their disciplinary procedures for dealing with officials who fail to follow the rules and
regulations of the UIL and/or the approved local officials organization/chapter.
Registration for officials wishing to officiate with UIL contests will be available immediately. The FREE online
registration process consists of two steps. The first step is the creation of an official’s profile associating each official
with an approved chapter for directory information. This information will be used to communicate needed sports related
information and assign playoff games/matches if necessary. The second step will include completion of the Officials
Compliance Program (OCP) as outlined in section 1204 (o) of the C&CR, which is available on the UIL website.
The FREE online registration process can be accessed online through the UIL web site www.uiltexas.org or directly at:
http://uil.arbitersports.com/front/105040/registration
For the purposes of receiving rule books, general liability insurance, directors and officers insurance, testing, training and
education, chapters may determine their affiliation with an organization that provides those services (i.e., UIL, TASO,
etc.).
Additionally, as of November 1, 2010 the fee schedule approved by the Legislative Council for the 2010-11 school year
will also be in effect. The fee schedule and other information concerning the payment of officials is available on the UIL
web site (www.uiltexas.org) under the Sports Officials tab.
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I agree with the BJ. Some communication could have gone out yesterday when this was complete.
Indicative of what happens when you must do things by committee. Everyone must agree and add their two cents and it just bogs down communication. TASO has to become more nimble with these issues and communication.
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Indicative of what happens when you must do things by committee. Everyone must agree and add their two cents and it just bogs down communication. TASO has to become more nimble with these issues and communication.
NO worries I undersatnd. I am just fighting the fires....
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I would like more clarification on this point...
For the purposes of receiving rule books, general liability insurance, directors and officers insurance, testing, training and
education, chapters may determine their affiliation with an organization that provides those services (i.e., UIL, TASO,
etc.).
I would guess that negotiations broke down, and so the second lawsuit was filed, but one has to wonder, why now it is free and this statement is in the letter. Would be nice if we had some information from our side of the fence..
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Wonder how quickly UIL could go door to door to get officials to work the playoffs if we all did not register?
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Who cares about the playoffs? They could potentially have a MUCH larger problem the last week of the regular season. Many more games that week on Nov 5 than there will be in 1st week of playoffs.
What if the 2 schools in that last week use "non UIL " officials and 1 or both then go to the playoffs. Could other schools try to block them from going forward due to use of "non UIL" officials?
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I replied to UIL telling them to take my name off their damn list.
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Who cares about the playoffs? They could potentially have a MUCH larger problem the last week of the regular season. Many more games that week on Nov 5 than there will be in 1st week of playoffs.
What if the 2 schools in that last week use "non UIL " officials and 1 or both then go to the playoffs. Could other schools try to block them from going forward due to use of "non UIL" officials?
What a mess. Someone needs to start doing some thinking for these guys because they seem to be completely incapable of understanding the repercussions of what they are doing, and the timing involved.
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What a mess. Someone needs to start doing some thinking for these guys because they seem to be completely incapable of understanding the repercussions of what they are doing, and the timing involved.
I'd just be happy if someone from TASO would just tell me whats going on. What we have here is a failure to communicate.
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September 8, 2010
In last week’s update I advised you that in return for the UIL’s apparent willingness to continue our discussions, TASO would hold off in refilling our law suit to prevent their hostile takeover attempt of Texas High School Officiating. All along we knew that this could be a stalling tactic and would be prepared to respond at any time.
Late last week it became apparent that the UIL has no intention to attempt to reach any form of negotiated agreement. As you may know they opened up the Registration Process at their web site early on Monday morning and sent e-mails to all of the officials that they have managed to secure (by whatever means possible) e-mail addresses.
I will say, that they were kind enough to give me advanced notice … I received an e-mail at 12:42 AM on Monday Morning. I imagine they were surprised to find a reply from me less than an hour later.
Yesterday TASO refiled the law suit as outlined by the Third Court of Appeals in their decision on August 27th. The next step will be to schedule a hearing to seek a Temporary Injunction to stop the UIL registration process. This hearing will be scheduled ASAP.
On Tuesday we requested a Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) to halt the UIL Registration process pending the hearing for an Injunction. In order for a TRO to be granted a party must show that irreparable harm will result in the absence of the TRO. Based on the fact that the registration deadline is not until November 1, and TASO officials may work UIL games until that point, it really came as no surprise that the TRO request was denied.
Be assured that we will aggressively seek to secure the Temporary Injunction to halt the hostile takeover attempt by the same governing body that is controlled by the public school districts. If this is allowed to happen, the independence of the high school sports officials in Texas will be lost.
It is also important to remember this. Our first suit was dismissed on a technicality, not the merits of the case. The Appeals Court stated in their decision “We express no opinion on the merits of TASO’s ultra vires claims, including whether, in the event that TASO brought these claims against a government officer acting in an official capacity, it could “allege, and ultimately prove, that the officer acted without legal authority or failed to perform a purely ministerial act.”
Also not to be forgotten is that when the four decisions have been issued by both the trial and appellate court based on material facts of the case, TASO has won all four.
Many of you have been told that you must quickly register with the UIL and that it will be in the best interest of your Chapter to do so. This is just not true. Then deadline is currently November 1st, it makes no difference if you register now or October 31st. If it does, then you should question the motives. It is more likely that those who are urging you to register immediately are doing so for their own self gain.
I urge you to take your time and consider all the facts. Ask yourself why the UIL is so dead set in controlling high school officiating. They say they are not going to charge any money to register … this year, but make no promises about next year, or the next. Why is that? I think I know, but I’ll let you come to your own conclusion.
I have asked dozens of UIL supporters why they are so pro UIL. Typically the answer I get is simple, it’s that they make play off assignments. I hear a few others, but not a single answer has ever addressed the well being of the body of high school officials … and more importantly, not to the betterment of the student athlete.
In the past week, I have received more than 100 e-mails and phone calls of support for our members. I am encouraged and strengthen by your support. I am more convinced than ever that the over whelming majority of our members want TASO to remain an independent organization OF officials, BY officials and FOR officials.
More later.
Mike
Michael Fitch
Executive Director
Texas Association of Sports Officials
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thanks Mike... and Mike...
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Good letter by Mr. Fitch!
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What a mess. Someone needs to start doing some thinking for these guys because they seem to be completely incapable of understanding the repercussions of what they are doing, and the timing involved.
Not surprising. They meeting this with the same prudence they used in dealing with Swine Flu.
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Who cares about the playoffs? They could potentially have a MUCH larger problem the last week of the regular season. Many more games that week on Nov 5 than there will be in 1st week of playoffs.
What if the 2 schools in that last week use "non UIL " officials and 1 or both then go to the playoffs. Could other schools try to block them from going forward due to use of "non UIL" officials?
I care about the playoffs and I am UIL registered and ready for double and triple dippers, if needed. Have bag will travel. You know my number, Mr. Timmons!!!!!
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UIL deserves some people!
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Oh I forgot Boss, have bag will travel, and my crew won't charge any mileage and we love the black UIL hat, really outta make it mandatory equipment.
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Several guys already indicating they will not be available after Nov. 1 as they will not register. I'm quite sure our schools will still use us regardless of who we affiliate with. They will not care about what the UIL demands. In the end, there will just be way too many schools using TASO officials and not a thing the UIL can do about it cause it will be impossible for them to police it. P_S
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Oh I forgot Boss, have bag will travel, and my crew won't charge any mileage and we love the black UIL hat, really outta make it mandatory equipment.
You know there is such a thing as trying too hard.
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You might be trying too hard, but I'm saving my energy for UIL playoffs. Sorry Fellas, it just dont get no better
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^flag
Mr. Fitch: I heartily commend you for a very well-worded letter to the TASO constituency! I, too, do believe that the filing of the second suit should give TASO the needed impetus to further present it's claims vs. the Manor Road Crowd, and ultimately get Good Time Charlie and his Dancing Monkey into the deposition chair.
Turn it all over to Mr. Schumann and let him do his work. And yes: until the UIL was given a repreive on a technicality, Mr. Schumann now knows which way to correctly steer the TASO legal ship. Let the man work! After all, he has won 4 decisions in this case up until this most recent setback~ I truly believe that he could win even more!
Just tell us loyal members of TASO what it is that we can individually do in order to help out! z^
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You might be trying too hard, but I'm saving my energy for UIL playoffs. Sorry Fellas, it just dont get no better
Can I buy you lunch? I would love to sit and chat with you. I never thought I would meet a walking, talking, pile of excrement but kind of like the Ripley Museum, I've got to see this. Name the place and the time Tony.
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One thing we can do is make sure our fellow officials understand they do not need to register right now. There is a misperception, no doubt well planned, that they have to register immediately. If UIL has only miniscule numbers of registered football officials as Nov 1 draws near, they will be forced to revisit their plans. There are some guys who have been waiting for the chance to register with UIL (and most likely have done so already). There are others who will not register with UIL at all until we are guaranteed certain things. And there are others who do not want to register but will do so if they think that is the only way they can work games. Those are the guys that need to understand there is NO need to register right now. Enjoy your season, work as you always have, and when we get closer to late-October you can look at the options on the table then and make your decision.
Anorther thing folks can do if they are multi-sport is make sure their sport's TASO leadership knows their views. I think the football guys are pretty well-convinced of what we need to do. I do not know if the others are equally well-convinced but they should be encouraged to be.
Football holds the cards here. Even though there is a Nov 1 "deadline", UIL already knows it has most all of the basketball chapters since they had them last year. Softball and baseball do not play games for quite some time so that "deadline" is not actually applicable to them. The "deadline" comes during the football season. If UIL does not get the numbers they need, what do they do? Cancel the rest of the season? There is no way Ornery and his several hundred buds can cover the hundreds of games that last week of the season. If they have not negotiated a reasonable resolution by then they may be forced to do so by events.
Not sure why they have chosen to draw this line in the sand specifically for football. Heck if you look at their website, they have "official UIL balls" for all the team sports except 1. Yep, football. They know they could not force the football coaches to use their Baden ball. It is time they realize there are other things they cannot force either. (probably not coincidental that Baden is the official NFHS ball also)
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I'm not doing any thing untill I'm told its time to do so by my chapter.
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I'm not doing any thing untill I'm told its time to do so by my chapter.
It is going to be an individual decision. The chapters can decide how they want to affiliate. I have made my choice. I responded to the UIL email asking them to take me off of their list and told them I had no intention of joining UIL.
As to the Week 10 games, I think these games are all on either written, implied or verbal contracts to TASO chapters and TASO crews!
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The UIL definately set themselves up for the Urinary Olympics right in the middle of football season. Not very smart.
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Oh I forgot Boss, have bag will travel, and my crew won't charge any mileage and we love the black UIL hat, really outta make it mandatory equipment.
Funny, not charging mileage and being willing to negotiate prices and fees is one of the very things the UIL was upset with some organizations. Thanks for clarifying as an official you have no integrity and are not even willing to follow the UIL guidleines as outlined in the football manual. Regardless of who is the ulitmate authority on officiating I hope I never have the misfortune of interacting with you in real life. As far as UIL is concerned I hope you are not their poster boy because I think even they would be diappointed in your "selling" of their vision.
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Funny, not charging mileage and being willing to negotiate prices and fees is one of the very things the UIL was upset with some organizations. Thanks for clarifying as an official you have no integrity and are not even willing to follow the UIL guidleines as outlined in the football manual. Regardless of who is the ulitmate authority on officiating I hope I never have the misfortune of interacting with you in real life. As far as UIL is concerned I hope you are not their poster boy because I think even they would be diappointed in your "selling" of their vision.
I think he is a troll. Someone who couldn't perform and was kicked out of his TASO chapter. Now after reading his promised to negotiate prices, I would bet that he was part of that group who got caught soliciting for playoff games. I have yet to read any of his posts where he is actually trying to help other officials in improving their game. Not one time have I seen him responding to any rules questions on here.
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I think he is a troll. Someone who couldn't perform and was kicked out of his TASO chapter. Now after reading his promised to negotiate prices, I would bet that he was part of that group who got caught soliciting for playoff games. I have yet to read any of his posts where he is actually trying to help other officials in improving their game. Not one time have I seen him responding to any rules questions on here.
Rules, Rules,
He don't need no stinking rules
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Funny, not charging mileage and being willing to negotiate prices and fees is one of the very things the UIL was upset with some organizations. Thanks for clarifying as an official you have no integrity and are not even willing to follow the UIL guidleines as outlined in the football manual. Regardless of who is the ulitmate authority on officiating I hope I never have the misfortune of interacting with you in real life. As far as UIL is concerned I hope you are not their poster boy because I think even they would be diappointed in your "selling" of their vision.
I think he is a troll. Someone who couldn't perform and was kicked out of his TASO chapter. Now after reading his promised to negotiate prices, I would bet that he was part of that group who got caught soliciting for playoff games. I have yet to read any of his posts where he is actually trying to help other officials in improving their game. Not one time have I seen him responding to any rules questions on here.
His screen name would indicate he is a troll. Or his only reason for being on refstripes is to stir the UIL vs TASO pot.
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ornery1 How the heck can you even call a game with your head so far up Timmons arse?
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Oh I forgot Boss, have bag will travel, and my crew won't charge any mileage and we love the black UIL hat, really outta make it mandatory equipment.
^flag
Hey, pi1eOn Ornery, Nostradumbus, or whatever moniker you're adopting these days: It's really no large secret that you're truly acting like the ignoramus that your writing ability so dictates. It doesn't really take a bachelors or masters degree to be able to make use of a dictionary or thesaurus, or to even turn on a spell-checker on your PC. May I suggest that you do just that, although at this juncture, even if you wrote a masters thesis of unique proportion, the balance of TASO folks would still take you for the JERK that you're showing everyone that you are. You might get a job application from the UIL: I do believe that they're hiring folks with your credentials, with or without state funding! z^
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You might be trying too hard, but I'm saving my energy for UIL playoffs. Sorry Fellas, it just dont get no better
It will be so funny when even the UIL turns you down. Who will you cry to then?
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I think he is a troll. Someone who couldn't perform and was kicked out of his TASO chapter. Now after reading his promised to negotiate prices, I would bet that he was part of that group who got caught soliciting for playoff games. I have yet to read any of his posts where he is actually trying to help other officials in improving their game. Not one time have I seen him responding to any rules questions on here.
I've reported him TWICE this week for trolling. Where is Grant!!!
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I think he is a troll. Someone who couldn't perform and was kicked out of his TASO chapter. Now after reading his promised to negotiate prices, I would bet that he was part of that group who got caught soliciting for playoff games. I have yet to read any of his posts where he is actually trying to help other officials in improving their game. Not one time have I seen him responding to any rules questions on here.
I've reported him TWICE this week for trolling. Where is Grant!!!
I have checked on the things you reported, blindref, and I didn't think it was too bad. I actually thought he was making a couple of jokes with some of the stuff he has posted recently (I did delete a couple of things a month or so ago by him). I try to stay away from the state-specific threads...too many folks feel very passionately about these things and I have no dog in the hunt.
Jason, you are right that he hasn't responded to any rules questions. I checked his previous posts and all of them have been in three threads dealing with TASO and/or the UIL.
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He is harmless. It is not the vocal yokels we need to be concerned with. It is that "silent majority" we need to focus on.
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I agree TXMike. I have a hard time believing that anyone would be moved one way or another by anything that ornery says. At a time when we need to stick together to hold onto whatever power/independence we can, it is not the loudest borderline illiterate idiot on the other side we need worry about.
That said, any thoughts on what percentage will register? Come November 1, what membership percentage do we need to have securely in TASO's corner to put some weight behind a threatened shortage of officials? If 0% signup with the UIL, TASO will be holding all the chips come reckoning day. If 100% signup with the UIL, TASO is done. The result will be somewhere in the middle. There is a number, and I bet the UIL knows it, where they will say, "we have enough football officials signed up to cover the games, therefore we don't need anything from TASO." What that number is escapes me.
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60-80 could handle the SA area varsity that last weekend. Wpuld require schools to be wiling to move their friday game to Thurs or Sat. Subvars would have to be worked by coaches or canvelled.
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I was hoping the number would be bigger. Will they reach that threshold? I hope not. It's really not asking too much from the membership to not register and see what happens. Worst case scenario for those loyal the organization that has brought them this far, is that those officials miss one week of regular season play and the playoffs. I don't think that's too much to ask.
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Would uil support a district/school/player or a crew like Florida seems to have done in this quick story? Just saying........ z^
Wether you agree with the action during the game or not, how the wannabees handle a situation like this bears a little thought. Doncha think?
P.S. Interesting name for the Dwyer coach?
Nick O'Leary suspended 2 games
PALM BEACH GARDENS, Fla. -- The grandson of Jack Nicklaus -- one of the nation's top football recruits -- was suspended for two games by Florida officials for making an obscene gesture toward the stands after a game in Ohio.
Nick O'Leary, a tight end for Palm Beach Gardens Dwyer in Florida, could have faced as much as a six-week suspension for an "unsportsmanlike act," the Florida High School Athletic Association said Thursday.
O'Leary was disciplined after Dwyer played Cleveland Glenville High on Monday, a game Glenville won 26-22. Television replays showed Dwyer, the reigning Florida Class 4A champions, twice scored what should have been a go-ahead touchdown in the final moments. Replays of a third possible touchdown on a quarterback sneak were inconclusive.
Later Thursday, the Palm Beach Post reported that athletic director Tom Pagley said Dwyer would seek a one-game reduction to O'Leary's suspension. Dwyer also said the team would not forfeit its next two games.
"In my opinion, we'll be playing those games," Pagley said.
O'Leary is not allowed to play while the appeal is under consideration.
"We think [the suspension is] a bunch of crap," Dwyer coach Jack Daniels said, according to the Palm Beach Post. "There are no repercussions for the adults who made the calls on the field, but there is for an 18-year-old kid who reacted in the heat of the moment.
"You have a kid who has busted his butt since August. He played 140 snaps against Glenville, on both sides, punting and returning kicks. He was frustrated."
According to the Post's report, O'Leary was disciplined -- but not suspended -- by the team.
"We handled it internally. Nick knew he was wrong," Daniels told the newspaper.
Late in Monday's game, officials ruled a Dwyer receiver was out of bounds and not in the end zone on the first debated play, despite replays showing otherwise. The other two plays were runs near the goal line, including one on the final play of the game.
O'Leary gestured as his team was leaving the field. Television cameras captured the act and have replayed it
O'Leary is the top-rated tight end in the ESPN 150 class of 2011 recruits and rated the 12th overall prospect. He had nine catches for 152 yards in the game with a touchdown. He's considering Miami, Florida State and Alabama, among other schools.
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I think he is a troll. Someone who couldn't perform and was kicked out of his TASO chapter. Now after reading his promised to negotiate prices, I would bet that he was part of that group who got caught soliciting for playoff games. I have yet to read any of his posts where he is actually trying to help other officials in improving their game. Not one time have I seen him responding to any rules questions on here.
I have never replied to a rules question either. I simply do not have the knowledge base that everyone of you do. I do read all of the discussions and attempt to learn as much as possible and as soon as I see one where I know the rule I will reply really quickly. :'(
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ME 2 504 ^talk
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He is harmless. It is not the vocal yokels we need to be concerned with. It is that "silent majority" we need to focus on.
^flag
The UIL strategy in basketball was to divide and conquer... by threatening to divide the younger echelon officials against the more dedicated TASO veterans, by letting them know that if the veterans are not around to work their varsity schedules, then those games would simply go by default to the "newbies" including playoff games, regionals, et. al. They will continue to use that same mantra here in football.
Now if we can passionately seek to keep the TASO base of UIL Registration at less than 25%, then I honestly believe that we can place Good Time Charlie and the Waltzing Innkeeper firmly between a rock and a hard place, effective on Week 10. Little Tony would be having to knock on a hell of a lot of doors to find even more neophytes for playoff games, and having to do that at that juncture, would serve to greatly enrage the Superintendents, and the the Athletic Directors, not to even mention the football coaches.
To stay one step ahead of them, we need to try to visualize exactly what kind of concessions that the UIL would then try to make, just to keep its ship afloat and remain credible all at the same time. After all, I don't think they can exactly garner a court order forcing the TASO veterans to work their games, so the only feasible thing I can envision is that they'll throw massive amounts of money out there for the veterans to effectively register with them and work those playoff games. Anyone else care to digress on the possibilities? We need to brainstorm all of the possible scenarios! z^
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We are independent contractors so a court order holds no water. I don't have a contract for services until I show up at the school and hand them a pay sheet. With no contract, I don't have to work any games. But, I may have to pay a fine to the chapter.
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I will be interested in how the IRS views the UIL assumption of control over officials. There is a fine line between independent contractor and employee. With the UIL dictating compensation, assignments, and disciplinary control, it sure sounds like an employer/employee relationship.
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I will be interested in how the IRS views the UIL assumption of control over officials. There is a fine line between independent contractor and employee. With the UIL dictating compensation, assignments, and disciplinary control, it sure sounds like an employer/employee relationship.
Not to carry the UIL's water for them but then the IRS will have to look at a lot of other state associations that control officiating. Texas truly is the minority when it comes to having a wholly separate official's association. I'm not saying that's a bad thing mind you.
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Looking at the registration form it looks like they realize the possible problem also. They are making ea guy acknoWlege he is an ind contractor. That will help but not guaranteee UIL stay protected
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I just received yet another friggin email from UIL inviting me to register.
Sent back another reply asking them to remove my name from their email list, this time in 18 font red.
As long as Timmons is involved and TASO is not they will get the same reply.
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Not to carry the UIL's water for them but then the IRS will have to look at a lot of other state associations that control officiating. Texas truly is the minority when it comes to having a wholly separate official's association. I'm not saying that's a bad thing mind you.
TASO serves a position sort of like a workers union. UIL has always had jurisdiction over officiating. If they had a problem with an official the UIL had all the power needed to remove that person from officiating. They just went through TASO. TASO is our voice to the UIL. But now UIL wants to remove that voice and be in a direct relationship with our chapters. If we had a problem with the UIL, we went through TASO, who then approached the UIL. If UIL gets their way, officials will be without a voice. It's not much different than the NFL officials belonging to their union.
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I see it as a little different because we are not members of the UIL, we are members of TASO. We happen to service the UIL and TAPPS. I don't disagree that TASO is our voice and I like the way officiating is setup in Texas (well for the most part but that's another thread). All I'm pointing out is that from an independent contractor angle, what the UIL is trying to do is already done in most states so I doubt the IRS is going to apply any extra scrutiny that they wouldn't have already done elsewhere.
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I just received yet another friggin email from UIL inviting me to register.
Sent back another reply asking them to remove my name from their email list, this time in 18 font red.
As long as Timmons is involved and TASO is not they will get the same reply.
I think they may be starting to panic over there at the UIL. I guess they were expecting to see a large inflow of officials with that first email that was sent out. Apparently the response has be very low so they sent out this second one. I say we just ignore the emails and let the coaches decide who they want to work for them. If they want UIL, they will have no officials. If they want TASO, we will be there ready to work.
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I think they may be starting to panic over there at the UIL. I guess they were expecting to see a large inflow of officials with that first email that was sent out. Apparently the response has be very low so they sent out this second one. I say we just ignore the emails and let the coaches decide who they want to work for them. If they want UIL, they will have no officials. If they want TASO, we will be there ready to work.
^flag
Well put, Jason! My sentiments exactly! z^
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I've said all along that the coaches could be our biggest advocates in this ordeal. If the coaches demanded us, they would get us. But the coaches are buying into the "pie in the sky" accountability promises because a few of them have been burned in the past. They don't use scratches correctly, (as a whole) they won't take the time to give us effective and fair evaluations, and they are scared to death of the misuse of power that has been wielded at times over them by bad refs.
This is a perfect storm and we are the only ones that can set our course out of it. The only way to beat this is unity. I'm fearful that we don't have that.
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The Blind guy has perfect vision herem. The football coaches alone could bring an end to this. So far, nothing.
The crazy part is it is not even fb coaches making the most trips to austin, the trips thay some coaches want to see refs making for "accountability". And when you ask them what they mean by accountability, nothing but crickets.
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I must not be on the mailing list>> :!#
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Does TAPPS require that each official register with them or is it done just at the Chapter level?
I ask because I don't know and have never called a TAPPS game.
For football, if everything stays the same as we know it, and making the HUGE assumption that the registration stays free, what is the biggest issue? Granted, I am a relatively new official and would admit that definitely don't know all of the history, but I would not stay with UIL to "get better games" I am perfectly happy with my current schedule, I would stay because I really enjoy doing it and it isn't something that I am ready to give up yet, at least initially.
Maybe I am being extremely naive but for right NOW given what we know, it would appear that TASO as an entity would be safe, especially for football...
from their letter
For the purposes of receiving rule books, general liability insurance, directors and officers insurance, testing, training and
education, chapters may determine their affiliation with an organization that provides those services (i.e., UIL, TASO,
etc.).
At least initially, it sounds as though they know that they cannot provide the services that are required for football, unless they move Texas football to the Federation and use the resources provided by the Fed. I guess for me it is just too early to tell, I don't want to read something into their agenda that may or may not be there. The free registration does appear to be the proverbial carrot on the end of the stick. The question remains how long until the carrot is removed and you fall off a cliff.
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Regardless of how all this mess turns out - tonight we will all be on the field doing that which we love. I hope all of you have safe travels and great games. Later
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Absolutely!!! ^good