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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: JasonTX on October 02, 2010, 06:20:59 PM
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I didn't watch the game but apparently LSU scored a TD on the last play but the Try wasn't attempted with the point spread only 2 pts. My high school game last night the same thing happened and we had to clear both teams to run the try even though the winning team just took a knee.
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The announcers said that the ball was placed at the 3 and were surprised they were going to run it. A few seconds later you could hear the PA guy say we are now being told the game is over. Most likely it was because the losing team was already in the locker room. Devastating loss as they stopped LSU as time expired but Tenn had 13 on defense (yes, 13). Half the distance, one more play, TD. Tenn went from jubilation to heartbreak.
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In Texas HS ball, you only have to run the EP if it is a district game and you are in a positive points situation.
We always ask during district what the PP margin is..if it's 45-0, we don't do it because most PP have a max of 21.
I'm not sure why the NCAA boys would consider running the EP play.
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Because with the score 16-14, Tennessee could score 2 points during the try and force OT.
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Because the rulebook says so. If it can impact the outcome (2 points or less difference) you have to run it.
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In Texas HS ball, you only have to run the EP if it is a district game and you are in a positive points situation.
We always ask during district what the PP margin is..if it's 45-0, we don't do it because most PP have a max of 21.
I'm not sure why the NCAA boys would consider running the EP play.
Down by less than 2 you have to run the try because the defense still has a chance to tie the game.
As far as Texas HS. Positive points only comes into play if you are in extra periods. It does not apply at the end of the 4th qtr. So if the last score at the end of the 4th qtr. gives the offense a 6 pt lead, the try is not attempted. In extra periods you would allow the offense to run the try. If the defense leaves the field you award 2 pts. to the offense.
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Tenn coach stated that he wasn't given time to react to LSU's late substitutions. Can someone post a replay?
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U got on the ball. Tennessee subbed in but not enough left. In fact, one who was leaving turned around and came back. I dopn't think the intent of the rule is to let Team B have an unlimited opportunity to get their subs correct.
[yt=425,350]08T6J58-RIs[/yt]
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I'd agree with TXMike. LSU subbed and Tennessee subbed in response. It's not a requirement in the rulebook for the crew to hold the snap for team B to figure out that they have 13 on the field. Both teams were in place for the snap so for the purpose of the rule allowing B to respond to A sub process this was IMO OK.
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Just finished watching Game Day Final with Lou "bash on the officials" Holtz. He mentioned the officials blew it by not letting Tenn sub. I went back and the U steps over the ball as the LSU subs are coming on the field. He leaves the ball once the Tenn subs are on their side of the ball and in position. Lou was wrong but spouted off anyway.
He then bashed on the Oregon/Stanford crew about an early hit on an onside kick. Once again, talking before looking at the clip. R player blocked 13 yards from the kick line as the ball was recovered at the 41. Look at the clips before you spew wrong information, Lou!
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Down by less than 2 you have to run the try because the defense still has a chance to tie the game.
As far as Texas HS. Positive points only comes into play if you are in extra periods. It does not apply at the end of the 4th qtr. So if the last score at the end of the 4th qtr. gives the offense a 6 pt lead, the try is not attempted. In extra periods you would allow the offense to run the try. If the defense leaves the field you award 2 pts. to the offense.
Jason
I understand why you think this as the UIL exceptions only list it in the Extra Period section but that is not the intent. The intent is for it to apply to regulation as well. Hopefully folks have been doing that.
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Had a JV game at Anahuac a few years back where this happened. We made them play the try and they had seven men on the line scrunched up tight, two backs right next to the QB and the 11th Man was set up around midfield just in case it all went wrong.
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Jason
I understand why you think this as the UIL exceptions only list it in the Extra Period section but that is not the intent. The intent is for it to apply to regulation as well. Hopefully folks have been doing that.
That's the way they wrote the exception. All of their examples of positive points are using plays in extra periods. None of them mention anything about the 4th qtr.
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That would be illogiical. All TASO clinicians should be teaching that it aplies in regulation also
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Aren't extra periods considered an extension of the 4th quarter?
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U got on the ball. Tennessee subbed in but not enough left. In fact, one who was leaving turned around and came back. I don't think the intent of the rule is to let Team B have an unlimited opportunity to get their subs correct.
I agree, this almost happened in my game a couple of week's ago. 4th down, punt team comes in, I go up with iron cross, U on the ball...B subs. No more B players moving, I release the U and then the 12th B player starts to leave the field, he just made it off before the snap, but if he hadn't it would have been a B foul for ill sub. I have to give them a reasonable opportunity to subst. in response to A subst. but they have to react almost immediately and then complete the subst in a timely fashion. I'm not counting the B team, I'm just seeing if they respond to the subst.
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Holtz spouting off
[yt=425,350]Rgri0WTVVkw[/yt]
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What a tool. I wonder what poor minion has to wipe Holtz's slobber off the desk after he spits all over the place?
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Aren't extra periods considered an extension of the 4th quarter?
I don't think so. Why do is that so?
At the start of an EP, the continuity of downs is broken; possession may change; the end of the field may change, etc.
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I don't think so. Why do is that so?
At the start of an EP, the continuity of downs is broken; possession may change; the end of the field may change, etc.
Are you Canadian? ;D
In 10 years of reading fb officiating forums, I've never heard that term applied to a US game.
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Because with the score 16-14, Tennessee could score 2 points during the try and force OT.
[/Yes if more than 3 points you do not do the extra point.... But then again why did
Oklahoma and Fld kick the extra point NCAA is you DO NOT RUN THE EXTRA POINT...Al TXquote]
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We were out a a Sports Bar in Orlando with friends and there was a guy from Tennessee....when they stopped LSU on the play on which they had 13 on the field....he was whoopin it up....and he had then gone to the restroom . I saw the officials gathered and told my friends...this is not over yet. Then the guy comes back out ....and finds out LSU gets one more chance....and of course the outcome he was celebrating....then changes...
It was classic....
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Did they have to go to replay to determine the 13 men on defense?
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A coach blaming officials for their mistakes? I've never heard of this type of behavior before! :!#
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Did they have to go to replay to determine the 13 men on defense?
That was kind of strange. It appeared the s was startinfg to come into the field just as the ball was snapped so maybe he was going to shut it down but could not. The play happened, there was mass hysteria and people everywhere afterwards so it would have been impossible to get a good count "after the fact" so they went to replay.
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That was kind of strange. It appeared the s was startinfg to come into the field just as the ball was snapped so maybe he was going to shut it down but could not. The play happened, there was mass hysteria and people everywhere afterwards so it would have been impossible to get a good count "after the fact" so they went to replay.
There were at least two flags on the ground, possibly three. I think they just went to replay to confirm the count.
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There were at least two flags on the ground, possibly three. I think they just went to replay to confirm the count.
According to ESPN on Saturday night, they spoke with Dr. Redding and he said there were three flags on the ground. With the situation the way it was, I can imagine that replay stepped in just to verify there was actually time on the clock when the ball was snapped and there were more than 11 players on the field for the defense. That's not something you want to get incorrect.
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Watch LSU #53. If you are extending the game shouldn't that be a foul?
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1 - The ball was dead and time had expired when he did that so I don't think it can be enforced, even if there is a replay of the down. I don't have any rule to support this, just gut.
2 - RR has been asked about it http://www.govolsxtra.com/news/2010/oct/04/helmet-explanation-not-slam-dunk/?preventMobileRedirect=1 (http://www.govolsxtra.com/news/2010/oct/04/helmet-explanation-not-slam-dunk/?preventMobileRedirect=1) On the Barnhart and Durham radio show Monday, SEC coordinator of officials Rogers Redding said “several players on both teams had their helmets off” on the play, which ended with a penalty on Tennessee for having 13 players on the field. Allowed to run one more play because of the infraction, LSU scored from 1 yard out to win, 16-14.
“We’re always going to allow that immediate, initial, spontaneous burst of emotion,” Redding said. “These are teenagers that are playing a game that is very emotional.
“It would be so technical and so over-officiating to have called anything like that at the very end of the game.”
AND 3 ---I think people from both benches poured on to the field so there would have been "offsetting dead ball fouls" anyway
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I feel as though the crew, the Umpire specifically, handles this correctly. He stood over the ball until Tennessee was clearly finished substituting. I feel the spirit of the rule is to allow the defense to substitute as they see fit, not to correct them if they do so inappropriately. The umpire stayed over the ball until Tennesse had substituted as they wanted. Once they were lined up (with 13) ready for the play, the Umpire stepped back. I would expect my crew to handle this the same way and I would expect there to be multiple flags on the ground for the infraction.
Personally, I commend the crew for handling the situation very well. From allowing the substitutes, moving away from the ball at the appropriate time, flagging the penalty, and verifying through replay. Excellent work!
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SEC official says decisions correct
http://www.2theadvocate.com/sports/104323524.html?showAll=y&c=y
By SCOTT RABALAIS
Southeastern Conference coordinator of football officials Rogers Redding said Monday his crew properly handled the end of the LSU-Tennessee game, including not penalizing Tigers center T-Bob Hebert or a number of other players for removing their helmets.
Speaking on the Tim Brando Radio Show, Redding addressed a number of issues stemming from the wild and wacky end to Saturday’s game, which LSU won 16-14 on an untimed down.
The controversy began in the closing seconds when LSU, which was out of timeouts, ran a keeper with Jordan Jefferson for one yard to the Tennessee 1.
About 26 seconds remained after the players unpiled. As time ticked away, LSU sent in a new personnel grouping with three wide receivers. Tennessee countered by changing defensive personnel.
Two players who were originally being subbed out stayed in, giving the Volunteers 13 defenders.
With about :03 left, Hebert snapped the ball past Jefferson in desperation, and after a mad scramble near the UT 19, time expired. However, officials called the Vols for illegal participation, allowing the Tigers to run one untimed down and score on a 1-yard smash by Stevan Ridley.
Tennessee coach Derek Dooley originally complained that his team wasn’t given enough time to set its defense, though he told reporters Sunday he would not lodge a complaint with Redding.
Redding supported the way his officiating crew handled the situation.
“There were about 25 seconds left when he (Jefferson) was tackled,” Redding said. “With about 10 or 11 seconds left, LSU sent several players into the game. The umpire (Jeff Roberson) comes to the ball to prevent the ball being snapped to give the defense time to make adjustments.
“Now, the clock is down to about 6 seconds. The referee (Marc Curles) and the umpire make eye contact, and they see that the defense is making no effort to make more adjustments. So, he (Curles) signals to the umpire to back away, indicating that the ball is ready to be snapped.”
With Tennessee celebrating an apparent 14-10 upset victory, a flag lay in the north end zone at the feet of back judge Dale Keneipp, whose job was to count Tennessee’s defenders. After a quick conference, Curles went to the sideline to talk to replay official Mike McGinnis by headset.
“All he did was ask the replay official, was there time left on the clock when the ball was snapped?” Redding said. “He (McGinnis) said, ‘Yes,’ then he (Curles) indicated the penalty.”
After the Tigers scored, officials marked the ball at the Vols’ 3 for an extra point attempt. By rule, LSU was required to run a play because the game was still in the balance — Tennessee could have tied it by returning a botched extra point try for two points.
Instead, Dooley apparently indicated his team would not come out for the play, allowing officials to declare the game over.
“The extra point attempt is supposed to be made if the score matters,” Redding said. “But if the defensive team leaves the field &hellip then it’s over.”
There was one other matter to deal with, that of Hebert flinging his helmet after it appeared Tennessee had won.
A player is subject to a penalty by removing his helmet in the field of play. But Redding said his officials have been instructed to determine a player’s intent when doing so, and that if a player removes his helmet in anger or celebration a penalty should not be called.
“He did take off his helmet, but you can see several players taking their helmets off” on both sides, Redding said.
“The way we handle those is, we always have to interpret why (the helmet is removed). We always allow for the immediate burst of emotion. To penalize that at the end of the game is a very technical interpretation of the rule. It would be irresponsible to penalize either team because of that.”
Despite the non-call, Hebert was apologetic about his actions when questioned Monday.
“It was an immature act on my part,” Hebert said. “I got caught up in the emotions of the game.
“But that’s no excuse. I’ve definitely looked at it and I will never let that happen again.”