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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on October 25, 2010, 10:24:57 AM
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Maybe some of you NFHS/NCAA guys can 'splain how this happened. KO is caught in the EZ by Team B player who runs out the back of the end zone. Safety was awarded to Team A. Is it possible the R got confused with NFHS rules? What else could explain a hiccup like this? (Go to the 2:50 mark of the clip)
Reportedly the R apologized after the game for the call.
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As soon as a kick crosses the goal line it's a touchback in NFHS.
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Then at 3:45 misses an illegal kicking that is a safety.
Not a good game at all.
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Then at 3:45 misses an illegal kicking that is a safety.
Not a good game at all.
I just noticed that as well, while I was watching the video. And then I scrolled down to hit reply and I saw your post. Not a very good day for that Referee at all. One would think that in either of those instances, the rest of the crew would be willing to stand up to him and tell him that his call was incorrect.
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The "illegally kicking the ball" was NOT ruled a safety. The team that blocked the kick was given the option and accepted the penalty - half the distance from the spot of the foul and loss of downl - 1st and 10 B.
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'scuse me, 1st and goal from the 1.
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Then at 3:45 misses an illegal kicking that is a safety.
Had the illegal kick been IN the end zone, then the only choice would have been a safety. Because it took place outside the EZ, B could accept the penalty from that point, which they did.
As for the kickoff/safety, that's a bad call in NFHS (where it was dead as soon as it broke the plane of the goal line), or in the NCAA or NFL. In Canada, I believe that would be a "rouge", but I will let our Northern brethren straighten me out on that one, assuming they can dig out of the snow drifts that must have hit by now.
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The "illegally kicking the ball" was NOT ruled a safety. The team that blocked the kick was given the option and accepted the penalty - half the distance from the spot of the foul and loss of downl - 1st and 10 B.
I agree that is an option. However, I did not see that he had a flag down for the illegal kicking.
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Is it possible the R got confused with NFHS rules? What else could explain a hiccup like this?
Where are the other six guys on this play? I once had a referee give a touchback signal after a blocked punt went past team A’s endline. He had four guys next to him in no time helping him correct his call.
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Team B has the option as stated but the referee should still signal safety as that is the result of the play.
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Team B has the option as stated but the referee should still signal safety as that is the result of the play.
I prefer that a score not be signalled by an official on my crew who also has a flag himself. If the result of the penalty accept/decline by the captain means it's a score, then fine. Signal it accordingly after the penalty signals.
This type of situation where an illegal kick or bat leads to the choice of safety or the ball in terific field position is a good example. I've had captains/coaches yelling "Decline! Decline!" at me because they think that's the best option for them. When I point out that under NCAA rules that the L.O.D. on an illegal bat/kick means I'm gonna give them super field position (likely 1st and goal) their response is often "Really? Oh, we'd rather have that!"
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Team B has the option as stated but the referee should still signal safety as that is the result of the play.
If you had OPI on a pass caught for a TD would you signal TD? Proper signal is simply to kill the clock and then administer the penalty based on the choice.
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If you had OPI on a pass caught for a TD would you signal TD? Proper signal is simply to kill the clock and then administer the penalty based on the choice.
Not a good comparison, I see this differently because it's rare and confusing to teams that have never seen it. I've actually had this happen to me 3 times in the last 6 years. Twice was illegal kicking and once illegal batting all in similar circumstances as discribed here. The first two times I didn't signal. In the first instance, time was critical and the coached WANTED the safety because he only had time for one play before the half expired and 2 points was better than none. The two times I didn't signal safety there was chaos from both sides of the field...one screaming "touchback" and the other screaming "touchdown." Neither side knew "jack" about what the ruling was and I had to give detailed explainations to both and each asked why I didn't signal the safety? The last time this happened was the second game of this season. I threw the flag when the ball was kicked at the 2 yard line then signaled safety when it went through the back of the end zone. It was much easier to explain the option part of this to both coaches when they knew the result of the play was a safety.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing saying you have to do either way but I'm going to give the signal.
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Not a good comparison, I see this differently because it's rare and confusing to teams that have never seen it. I've actually had this happen to me 3 times in the last 6 years. Twice was illegal kicking and once illegal batting all in similar circumstances as discribed here. The first two times I didn't signal. In the first instance, time was critical and the coached WANTED the safety because he only had time for one play before the half expired and 2 points was better than none. The two times I didn't signal safety there was chaos from both sides of the field...one screaming "touchback" and the other screaming "touchdown." Neither side knew "jack" about what the ruling was and I had to give detailed explainations to both and each asked why I didn't signal the safety? The last time this happened was the second game of this season. I threw the flag when the ball was kicked at the 2 yard line then signaled safety when it went through the back of the end zone. It was much easier to explain the option part of this to both coaches when they knew the result of the play was a safety.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing saying you have to do either way but I'm going to give the signal.
I agree with you. I always signal regardless if there is a flag thrown by me or not. Everyone knows the result of the play when they see the signal and can make a decision based upon the result of the play.
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Great points fellas, but once you've stopped the clock - time is not an issue. As always, we do what the supervisor wants... we've been taught not to signal a score if there is a foul that might negate the immediate points. But ya know what? The Cubs still haven't been to the WS since 1945.
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When I said time was critical, I meant that there was only enough time in the half for them to have one play if they took the penalty. Coach figured he'd take the 2 points rather than risk for six on one play. I see why some would not signal and I don't disagree with that but, for me, the safety signal has helped me avoid a whole lot of hassle.
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We have debated this one before, signal or no signal. We never came to an agreement as I recall. Best reason to signal the score is that the fans on the scoring team's side will go nuts in happiness and then when they see they are not getting the points they will respond equally as loud in an opposite manner. Keeps 'em in the game. >:D
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We have debated this one before, signal or no signal. We never came to an agreement as I recall. Best reason to signal the score is that the fans on the scoring team's side will go nuts in happiness and then when they see they are not getting the points they will respond equally as loud in an opposite manner. Keeps 'em in the game. >:D
Some of them like to throw stuff too...that's always awesome.
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On the opening kickoff the receiver lets the ball bounce behind the goal line. Difficult to tell, but if he didn't touch the ball before it bounced, that should be a touchback as well, right?
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An untouched kick that touches in the EZ is a TB, yes.
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Kickoff goes into end zone and is caught by a player of the receiving team. He runs parallel to the end line and then goes to one knee after taking about 10 steps but the ball never enters the field of play. Referee signals safety. Five of the other six officials agree. You do not as you are sure that it is a touchback. How much hell do you raise before giving up?
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Raise hell.
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Kickoff goes into end zone and is caught by a player of the receiving team. He runs parallel to the end line and then goes to one knee after taking about 10 steps but the ball never enters the field of play. Referee signals safety. Five of the other six officials agree. You do not as you are sure that it is a touchback. How much hell do you raise before giving up?
Can't let the discussion get out of control - you're one member of the team. State your case, make sure that your R & U both hear what you have to say and understand clearly that you have a TB since team A is responsible for the ball being in the EZ. After that, without raising any hell, IMO you have to let it go.
Hard to believe that anyone officiating under NCAA rules doesn't know that unless a team is responsible for the ball being in the EZ, that you can't have a safety if they don't get it out of the EZ.
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The only reasonable facsimile I can immediately think of to the Canadian rules I run with involves an intentional grounding while the QB is in the end zone.
By Canadian amateur rules, B can opt to accept the penalty and the resulting points, or decline and accept the result of the play. Since the points are not scored until a decision on the penalty is made, I will not signal a safety only to then have to take it away if B decides to decline.
I think that's a wise principle to follow here. Since the score doesn't actually take place until the decision is made, don't signal the score until that decision... It's a hell of a lot easier to add points after the fact than subtract 'em.
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Referee signals safety. Five of the other six officials agree. You do not as you are sure that it is a touchback. How much hell do you raise before giving up?
After the second attempt to persuade them, I'd calmly say, "Boys, I am dead sure this is a TB. And I am wiling to wager my pay check against any of y'all's. Now, how strongly do you feel it is a safety?" eAt&
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Kickoff goes into end zone and is caught by a player of the receiving team. He runs parallel to the end line and then goes to one knee after taking about 10 steps but the ball never enters the field of play. Referee signals safety. Five of the other six officials agree. You do not as you are sure that it is a touchback. How much hell do you raise before giving up?
LOTS and LOTS
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I agree that is an option. However, I did not see that he had a flag down for the illegal kicking.
At about 3:22 on the video you will see R throws a flag towards the spot of the foul.
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The conference has taken action:
http://billingsgazette.com/sports/college/blogs/catgrizinsider/article_0b09692c-e206-11df-8042-001cc4c002e0.html