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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: Diablo on November 01, 2010, 11:38:43 AM
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Check out the last video on Rom Gilbert's Week 10 Clips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9ZNOoO-F98
Whats y'all think and why?
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[yt=425,350]a9ZNOoO-F98[/yt]
The L had that guy and the wideout so perhaps it would have been helpful for the U to check with the L to verify the guy he flagged was indeed restricted.
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A couple issues here...
The R and U can help (pre-snap) on the backs lining up, and if they are inside or outside of the tackle's frame. He looks to be inside the frame of the RT.
Also, the R gave the clipping signal, not the block below the waist signal.
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I think this emphasizes the need to know the number of your key all the way until the ball is spotted for the next down and the need for crew communication. It is L's key so he should know that the player was a RB, and either R or U (maybe B) should have then realized that he wasn't restricted from blocking below the waist.
Learning points for me: if an action I flag is foul only sometimes, I should let the R know all relevant data, including player position at the snap, if I happen to know it. Also, as a 5-man crew R, I need to start taking note of the position of the runningbacks.
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I think this emphasizes the need to know the number of your key all the way until the ball is spotted for the next down and the need for crew communication. It is L's key so he should know that the player was a RB, and either R or U (maybe B) should have then realized that he wasn't restricted from blocking below the waist.
Learning points for me: if an action I flag is foul only sometimes, I should let the R know all relevant data, including player position at the snap, if I happen to know it. Also, as a 5-man crew R, I need to start taking note of the position of the runningbacks.
Hard to keep track of the backs with all of the shifts, motion, no huddle, etc.
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Even though it is the wing's key, the R and U can help here.
We use a mechanic where the R and U give a punch forward (inside frame) or out (outside frame) to help the wing determine if that back is inside or outside of the tackle's frame.
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Whats y'all think and why?
Had two calls similar to this in a game (5-man crew MA high school) where team A was using 3 backs (all numbered in the 20's) where they would be shifting to wings, going in motion, etc... . Twice we had low blocks with a #2n back clearly coming back from outside and downfield then blocking low.
We discussed at length after the game, and further in our next weekly board meeting, but there's no question that with a "shifting / motion" offense in a 5-man game keeping track of which one(s) of the three backs are stationary in the tackle box at the snap and are therefore "legal" for this type of block needs some attention and focus pre-snap.
Any suggestions on mechanics and keys to help with this in a 5-man game?
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I, personally, see this as to why you do not flag in 'other people's' ponds. This would be the L's call; this block(low, back toward position of ball) is never a block a U keys on. This is no different if the F sees a hold by the LG...he cannot help the situation.
If the call is missed, let it be missed; trying to 'save' a crewmate can sometimes only make things worse. Just be careful.
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Whilst I might be doing the coaches a disservice it is interesting that the coaches just accept the call. If they thought it was wrong they would usually be telling the officials all about it. The fact they did not suggests to me that they don't really know that rule too well.
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Hard to keep track of the backs with all of the shifts, motion, no huddle, etc.
Stay tuned. I have a clip from another game this weekend where a motion back ends up getting way outside as the play develops and then throws a "crackback" (unflagged). Will be good to hear takes on who should see it and who would even recognize the offfender was restricted at the snap.
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Any suggestions on mechanics and keys to help with this in a 5-man game?
Try this recommendation.
1. All officials should say their key's number prior to the snap. Ditto for the defender marking receivers. Hint: Practice this when you attend a live game.
2. Know where your key is at the snap and if in motion. S, B, & F can usually tell if their keys are inside the tackle or not.
3. R & U should know whether set backs are inside/outside the tackle prior to the snap.
4. At the end of the play, if an official reports an illegal crackback foul, the R should be programed to ask where the offending player was at the snap. If the calling official doesn't know, go around the horn to determine which official was keying the perp. The R & U can step forward with the location of H & L keys inside.
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I, personally, see this as to why you do not flag in 'other people's' ponds. This would be the L's call; this block(low, back toward position of ball) is never a block a U keys on. This is no different if the F sees a hold by the LG...he cannot help the situation.
If the call is missed, let it be missed; trying to 'save' a crewmate can sometimes only make things worse. Just be careful.
I think the U's flag is for the holding, not the Crack Back.
Now the question is about the Hold. The U dropped his flag long after the play at the 30. What appears to be a hold by
#66 looks to be at the 40. Why so late and why 10 yards away from the Hold?
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I think the U's flag is for the holding, not the Crack Back.
Now the question is about the Hold. The U dropped his flag long after the play at the 30. What appears to be a hold by
#66 looks to be at the 40. Why so late and why 10 yards away from the Hold?
Ibelieve the reason it is at the 30 is the U who flagged the BBW. Nobody else is talking to the R so how we would know about the BBW?
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...and speaking of the difficulty tracking a motion back as he moves into the action and then potentially commits a BBW foul...take a look:
[yt=425,350]aY6XJA6PoyM[/yt]
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Wow...he whiffs on the initial block and B runs into him. I don't see this as a BBW...maybe a train wreck...but not BBW. If there was intent, yes...it's a BBW...and I have no idea who should get it. Very tough call.
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The OP is a great example of why the blocking below the waist rules need to be simplified.
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If you're near the border, just work a season or two in Canada, and you'll be an expert on officiating in-motion players.
Diablo's points above are spot-on. And the ability to remember a number or two. Pre-snap, you have to identify your eligibles, your primary and secondary receiver, and guys eligible to do things like BBW or those restricted from the crackback.
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Wow...he whiffs on the initial block and B runs into him. I don't see this as a BBW...maybe a train wreck...but not BBW. If there was intent, yes...it's a BBW...and I have no idea who should get it. Very tough call.
Uhhhhhh....didn't you say this?
"...this BLOCK looks just as unsafe as a run of the mill BBW even though it might not meet the exact definition." >:D
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Any suggestions on mechanics and keys to help with this in a 5-man game?
Diablo's suggestions are spot-on but relate to a 7-man crew. In a 5-man crew I think it becomes the responsibility of the referee to know which receivers are allowed to crack, as the wings and B will have their heads full figuring out the keys and their numbers.
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I believe that Diablo's suggestions as applied to a five man crew are the only reasonable way to handle this. The R & the U need to identify those backs pre-snap that are going to be OK for BBW coming back toward the ball. Given the keys for the wing officials, especially in obvious pass situations when the outside receivers are long gone and a play is breaking down into a fire drill, the R & U are going to end up owning this call.
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I, personally, see this as to why you do not flag in 'other people's' ponds. This would be the L's call; this block(low, back toward position of ball) is never a block a U keys on. This is no different if the F sees a hold by the LG...he cannot help the situation.
If the call is missed, let it be missed; trying to 'save' a crewmate can sometimes only make things worse. Just be careful.
With the wings having the ball carrier and the R cleaning up behind the play, is it not the responsibility of the U to watch the POA and action in front? Or does the U have action behind and the BJ watches in front?
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if we judge the "intent" of the rule, wouldn't the original play qualify, I know by rule that is not a foul, but that guy has moved himself outside the normal tackle then blocked back towards the ball, no different than a slot receiver. That is one of the problem with the rules with blocks below the waist.
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Mike I saw that play from the USC game also. Glad you posted it.
HS game here in Texas. Wing-back from other side of formation in motion toward me, I am HL. Back goes wide then heads upfield then cuts the safety back toward the middle of the field. I flag it and coach is beside himself.
Coach said this to me:
He can do that because he started on other side???
He can do that because he came to this side then went downfield???
Georgia Tech and Navy do it all the time???
I tried my best to tell him no player in motion can block back toward the orginal positon of the ball. I think he thought since the back was in motion toward the near sideline at the snap he was exempt.
Then later in the game after things have settled down he said his player was blocking low but straight downfield. He had changed his whole line of argument.
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No player, no matter where he originally lined up, should be allowed to block towards the middle of the field in a sidezone.
I don't see a difference safetywise between a WR or a pulling OG taking out a LB's knee.
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I saw the original play live and had it on DVR. The problem was a lack of communication by the crew. This is a safety call, which "IF" the block was illegal because of the location of the back (which it was not illegal as he was inside the tackle) would be a call that needs to be flagged by someone. It was a good pick up by the U, but then the flag should have been picked up when the R, U, and H got together and discussed where this player was at the start of the play. The U just saw a not-linemen coming back towards the ball inside the 10 yard belt and blocking below the waist. He is thinking this is a foul, but should have found out where he came from. This is the H's key and he could have got involved and subsequently the flag picked up, which it should have.
BTW, on our crew, the R or U will point if they have a back who is outside the tackle box, indicating to the short wings and B that he is restricted from blocking below the waist back towards the ball.
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Just when you thought you understood the rules...
today's accountability video from dave parry leads off with the original play in this thread. parry calls it an excellent call. I give up!@ ^flag
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Excellent call? pi1eOn
Should we expect a rule change next year?
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Wheewwww...that was close!!! I am coming back in off the ledge now. ;D Just received this:
Mike:
You are right. Block is legal.
Nice going! Sharp eye!
We were too focused on 10 yards from LOS and overlooked #23 being lined up inside the tackle box.
Thanks for input.
David Parry, National Coordinator
^good ^good ^good ^good ^good ^good ^good ^good
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Good thing Parry reads his email - but I wonder, don't the top level guys read Rom's stuff?
Anyway, kudos to TXMike for setting Parry straight!
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Way to go Mike!! :thumbup
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Excellent call? pi1eOn
Should we expect a rule change next year?
I believe the answer will be "yes" to this question. I understand that all aspects of blocking below the waist will be thoroughly examined and this is one of those aspects since the original location of the blocker seems to be irrelevant with respect to whether this action is safety-related.
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I heard Dr Redding speak late this Summer and if he has anything to do with it, there will be some major changes to the blocking below the waist rules. He makes a great point in that they have gotten so convoluted over the years that they are increasingly very hard to officiate and lead to situations exactly like this play. A hit that probably should be illegal is technically not.
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A hit that probably should be illegal is technically not.
Why do you say the hit should be illegal? The blockee can easily see the blocker coming and the block was in front.
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Should have used " " for "should". under the current rules, this hit would have been illegal had #23 been lined up as a flanker. The hit he would have made from that position is no less dangerous or violent than the hit he made from the position where he did line up. I say "should' be illegal just because that is the way the rule as written would suggest "should" be a foul.
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I had something very similar happen to me twice, once as a R when I made the wrong call and once when I was the R in a game where a wing called it, possibly making a wrong call.
Mine had a lineman come out and then blocking back towards the middle. Went to the coach at halftime and apologized.
The other one was in a game of Juniors (19 years and below), where the TE came out and blocked towards the middle. Since it was possible, that (under the rules back then) he was allowed to do that if he was close enough to the snapper, it could have been a bad call. I still told the (Hungarian and rather fresh) wing that I found his call OK because of the safety aspect.
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I had to wave one off this past week, when my B threw a "crack back" on #55 who was the T. But, as pointed out earlier in the thread, what is really different from a safety perspective than a lineman or back peeling back and doing this vs. the guy started from the outside doing it. It will be interesting to see how this evolves over the next couple of years.
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what is really different from a safety perspective than a lineman or back peeling back and doing this vs. the guy started from the outside doing it.
Generally, I think the outside guy going back in, i.e. the current illegal block, occurs earlier in the play, and the blockee does not have a chance to see the block coming; hence, can not try to avoid it or brace himself.
On the other hand, the lineman/back peeling back, i.e. current legal block, occurs later in plays, after a scrambling QB reverses direction. And the block is usually thrown against a defender in pursuit, who can see the block coming; hence, not blind sided.
BTW: How is the block on the video different from a tailback blocking low and in front on a defensive tackle rushing a dropback QB? Are do y'all think that block should be illegal as well?
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I don't really care if they outlaw low blocks or not except for the fact it would be MUCH easier to officiate if it were aLl outlawed. All the low blocks aRE potentially dangerous wheter they see it coming or not
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I don't really care if they outlaw low blocks or not except for the fact it would be MUCH easier to officiate if it were aLl outlawed. All the low blocks aRE potentially dangerous wheter they see it coming or not
If they went to that exteme, that would really hurt the option offenses like Ga Tech and Navy run as well as all the HS teams who still run it. They may be put out of business, if not sure make it different to block!
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There are plenty of high schools under NFHS that run the option and run it well. They will just need to adjust. I'd be all for a rule change to mirror the NFHS.
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There are plenty of high schools under NFHS that run the option and run it well. They will just need to adjust. I'd be all for a rule change to mirror the NFHS.
Good point Welpe, I am in my own little world here in Texas, with HS and college using the same (NCAA) rules. I know the HS coaches would have a fit but...
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Good point Welpe, I am in my own little world here in Texas, with HS and college using the same (NCAA) rules. I know the HS coaches would have a fit but...
I hear you. I came from a Federation state so I am still trying to get it out of my blood.
The coaches might as well adjust now because regardless if the NCAA changes the rule or not, we're all going to be under NFHS rules in a couple of years anyways. Oh shoot there I go again. pi1eOn