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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: fbljuj on November 07, 2010, 08:22:36 AM
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I was told that the QB was going to shout our spiking the ball and fake it to throw a pass aka Dan Marino. I know faking a knee the ball becomes dead but I told the coach if the QB verbalizes that this is deceptive act and would be flagges as such. Much like the kicker running to the sideline and saying he needs a new shoe and cutting up field as a open receiver. I could not find an approved rulling or bulletin............. any help?
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WOW 29 views and no replies
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WOW 29 views and no replies
Not an easy answer - but I'll offer my opinion. We've been told (at our youth football level) not to allow any of this kind of play. No such mandate at the HS level, and I've never seen it. I agree with your comment that there seems to be no real rules support to call this illegal so IMO we have to let it go. This one does not seem to have any direct interaction with the sideline so we can't use that as the basis to make a call. I don't have anything.
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WOW 29 views and no replies
While I can't speak to NCAA rules, FED rule 9-9-1 (Comment) speaks only to such a verbal act as it relates to "confusing the defense into believing there is a problem and the snap isn't imminent". IMO, the rule would be applicable to the "shoe" reference but would NOT apply to "spiking the ball" - since there is no snap-delay directly implied (might be inferred; but that's not A's problem).
We do, however, always advise B to continue to "play" unless and until a knee is actually taken.
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In the Redding study guide for 2009-2010 at the bottom of page 156, it states "it is also a foul if verbiage is used to deceive the opponents) under confusion/deception, however, it is in the substitution rulings. Looks like I kicked this one and read to much of the intent of the rule which is confusing the opponents with a non-football situation (i.e. smooth shifts, fake field goals etc.......).
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Keep in mind that spiking the ball is a legal forward pass play. Verbalizing the play is not illegal, nor is throwing to a different receiver. A QB could yell out, "sweep right", and then throw a fade pass for a TD. As it was stated, using the substitution process or using equipment ("where's the tee" etc.) to confuse opponents is illegal. Calling out a play and running something different is not illegal.
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The NCAA rules (and interpretations) are pretty specific in that the only kinds of illegal verbal deceptions before the ball is snapped are in the class of "causing the defense to think that the snap is not imminent". Calling a play and then running something completely different is not in this class.
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I was told that the QB was going to shout our spiking the ball and fake it to throw a pass aka Dan Marino. I know faking a knee the ball becomes dead but I told the coach if the QB verbalizes that this is deceptive act and would be flagges as such. Much like the kicker running to the sideline and saying he needs a new shoe and cutting up field as a open receiver. I could not find an approved rulling or bulletin............. any help?
Misleading tactics north of the border. Flag it right away.
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Keep in mind that spiking the ball is a legal forward pass play. Verbalizing the play is not illegal, nor is throwing to a different receiver. A QB could yell out, "sweep right", and then throw a fade pass for a TD. As it was stated, using the substitution process or using equipment ("where's the tee" etc.) to confuse opponents is illegal. Calling out a play and running something different is not illegal.
:thumbup
Legal play.
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Misleading tactics north of the border. Flag it right away.
"Misleading tactics" include the offense verbalizing an otherwise legal play? Football is full of deception.
Are the teams forced to exchange playbooks up there in the frozen north too?
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In my area (I don't know if it applies to all of Germany) the only restriction of this sort we make is if the O indicates they are going to take a knee.
We don't worry about a bad snap and recovery, we actively tell the D not to attack as O will not be running a play. Don't forget that this comes from what you guys would consider 'semi-pro' ball, with a lot of hot heads and a fair amount of 'roid rage - so if a team is indicating they are finished - we stop all contact.
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a team able to 'buy' the time with their downs and not have to snap.
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Like James said, here in Austria (he obviously works in Germany) we actively try to prohibit any action once a team goes into "Victory Formation" or concedes a down to end the first half. It has become a custom over here to make the "knee play" look like it does in the NFL, where there is only token action once the ball is snapped from the VF.
So we would call UNC if a "take a knee" is clearly announced, communicated to the D, and then a play is run.
Signaling for a spike and then making a "normal" play is legal deception, IMO.
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I was told that the QB was going to shout our spiking the ball and fake it to throw a pass aka Dan Marino. I know faking a knee the ball becomes dead but I told the coach if the QB verbalizes that this is deceptive act and would be flagged as such. Much like the kicker running to the sideline and saying he needs a new shoe and cutting up field as a open receiver. I could not find an approved ruling or bulletin............. any help?
Not to beat a dead horse but I asked if he can put this in a bulletin for an approved ruling :
As you describe the play this is deceptive and a violation of 9-2-3-c.
Rogers Redding
Secretary-Rules Editor
NCAA Football Rules Committee
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From: rnpatry@cox.net [rnpatry@cox.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 8:12 AM
To: footballrules
Subject: Fake spiking the ball by the QB and verbalizing
I was told in the coach's walk through that the QB was going to shout out
spiking the ball and fake it to throw a pass aka Dan Marino. I know
faking a knee the ball becomes dead but I told the coach if the QB verbalizes
that this is deceptive and unfair act and would be flagged as such 9-2-3-c. Much
like the kicker running to the sideline and saying he needs a new shoe and
cutting up field as a open receiver. I could not find an approved
ruling or bulletin but In the Redding study guide for 2009-2010 at the bottom of
page 156, it states "it is also a foul if verbiage is used to deceive the
opponents............ any help would be appreciated and thank you.
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9-2-3-c An obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs during the game.
This is the only thing in the NCAA that this would fall under. Fairly broad, but since there is a whole section concerning the integrity of the game/sportsmanship, if this occurred, it could fall under this. The penalty listed here is the 'whatever deemed equitable' language, which to me says, as the R, you can declare incomplete pass, next down.....if you felt like it, that is.