RefStripes.com
Football Officiating => General Discussion => Topic started by: WKowalczyk on November 17, 2010, 09:33:02 AM
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I had a discussion with my commissioner last night. I will post what we talked about after the poll closes.
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I say keep 'em...and phase out the knickers.
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I say keep 'em...and phase out the knickers.
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They still look like YMCA league to me. Ditch them and stay with knickers.
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They should be used only in extreme weather. I know, I know you have heard all of the stories about walking 2 miles to school barefoot in the snow (uphill both ways) from all of us old farts but I truly do not like the look especially when they are playing in 45 degree weather. The players are in short sleeves and the coaches in shorts while the officials are in long sleeves, black foul weather pants, head warmers, etc.
Like a wise man told me once................
"why do you work football games in the wind, mud, snow, rain, sleet, heat"
"Because the do not have domed stadiums in West Texas"
If it was easy, anyone could do it.
Ditch the black pants except very, very, cold weather.
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I hate the notion that officials have to look tough and wear short sleeves because it's football. Does anybody really think the fans/players notice??? Keep the black pants...they look good and are more comfortable.
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When the NFL went to the knickers with the black stripes....it reminded me of the convicts in the ORIGINAL "The Longest Yard"....these black pants with white stripes look just the opposite... but still remind me of the convicts....
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Who washes white pants after a muddy game?
As a single guy i get an "expert" (my mother) to wash them when they're really soiled. The common-sense response was "Why don't you wear black ones in the winter?"
As some of you might know we work all-year in the UK, which often means 25-40 games a year. White pants can get ruined within 2 years. My initial response would be to have black knickers, as opposed to a full trouser, and the white stripe is pretty pointless. I think the stripe looks a bit like a tracksuit, kinda like the tracksuit basketball players wear and "rip-off" when they leave the bench.
It's an interesting topic as there is a proposal in the UK and Europe to move to black pants for our bad-weather games. That means an obvious demand for business.
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SS Shirt=Knickers
LS Shirt=Black Pants
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I love 'em. More comfortable and warmer. Plus, I like the look of them. I wouldn't mind going to them all season. Warm or cold.
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Black pants are fine for cold/severe weather, but I'd like to see eithe the bottom tapered or elasticized, so with all the movement when the pants slide down we don't wind up stepping on (through) them with the heel.
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I like them for cold weather. They are great for keeping cold wind off the legs and quiet toasty with under armor. I do not like the pant legs though. Even after hemming etc when back pedal I fell em scraping across the opposite shoe.
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I would prefer to use 'em exclusively, instead of the knickers.
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I have worn the black pant twice now and they are comfortable, look good, and I would wear them with short and long sleeve if I could. They are great.
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After wearing a pair each this season of the "approved" (by my state) Honig's and the "illicit" Gerry Davis brand, I came to the following conclusions:
Honig's- Gerry Davis
thicker/heavier feel to the cloth lighter, dress pant feel
flimsy,cheap, teeny zipper heavier, brass looking zipper
shallow hip pockets deeper pockets
hard to crease ironing at home crease already in
sized alphabetically- poor fit- XL too big , sized numerically- better fit, slider tabs to adjust fit
Lg was too tight
Made in China Made in USA
The Honig's brand is a better true foul weather pant based on the fabric and the chemical treatment applied. However, the Gerry Davis was a better fit for me and seemed to be overall a better quality item. If Davis would improve his fabric, it would beat Honig's hands down. He acknowledges that in his product description but tries to mitigate by saying that additional fabric or treatment would increase the cost. Honig's tries to get a dig in back by stating that they "just didn't sew a white stripe on their basketball pant".
If I were in an area that decided they wanted to wear black pants all season, the Gerry Davis would be my choice for August through mid-October. I'd want the Honig's for rainy weather or cold conditions.
I'm tempted to order a Smitty's and a Cliff Keen set just to round out my assessment. I've still got one pair of Cliff Keen knickers I bought on clearance a couple years back that are still in the plastic. I'm going to retire out some of my older sets as we wore pants from October 1st on. They were a bit warm for a 5:00 pm middle school start in the mid to upper 70's.
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We have worn them twice. If we wear long sleeves we are going black. Everyone on crew loves them.
If anyone says do what the white hat wants. They need to find a new crew, pronto.
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Don't know why it matters,but I wish Honigs had deeper pockets.
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I like them both but if anyone was given the job of designing an officials uniform from scratch for a new sport called football how many would come up with the idea of using white knickers? : )
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(Disclaimer: Black is not yet an option in our state)
My main problem with the black pants currently sold is the white vertical stripe on each leg. Presumably this has something to do with making them tax-deductible as "uniform expense", but to me it mitigates the argument for not getting mud on white knickers. Plus, it makes them look like jogging pants.
Although I'd like the option to wear them for rainy/cold weather games, I wonder how they would do in the Deep South during hot weather games.
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If anyone says do what the white hat wants. They need to find a new crew, pronto.
Amen, Brother.
That philosophy went out with the wrist horn.
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I have the Gerry Davis pant and I'm not impressed. It really is not a cold weather pant, its very light weight and not wind/water proof at all. Plus, the butt/crotch/legs are cut too big. I could darn near fit my waste in the legs. They are like an oversized dress pant, not an athletic pant at all. I only wore them once this year as my normal crewmates decided not to buy them after I had already done so. I wore them filling in with another crew and they didn't have the Davis or the Honig not sure what they had but I liked theirs a lot better than mine...
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lawdog, you'll find the Honig's are big too. One WH of ours actually had to have the seat taken up in his, along with the standard hemming, because they were too roomy.
I think they're designed that way to allow for layering. I will say I was glad for the space the night I wore my Rocky heavy duty fleece longs two weeks ago.
I've heard of some officials wearing the Smitty's brand. Might that be the ones you saw?
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Properly worn white knickers and striped socks is what separates us from intramural flag football officials.
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Properly worn white knickers and striped socks is what separates us from intramural flag football officials.
:thumbup
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:thumbup
And tucked in shirts with hats worn the proper way.
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Does that mean that the hat is not worn cocked to one side with shades of course?
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Properly worn white knickers and striped socks is what separates us from intramural flag football officials.
...and much of the time and in much of the USA, I'm sure that's exactly what is worn. But I can understand the rationale behind them having been adopted in the more Northerly states for cold / foul weather.
I'm the wrong side of fifty now and when I do a game in bad weather I really feel it. During my last trip to the USA, I had a chance to examine a pair of the (Honig's) black pants. They looked to be made pretty much like the white knickers - same type of waistband, pockets etc. But they are a heavier material and water resistant.
I'm looking forward to my Association adopting the black pants. If they help me feel a little more comfortable, then I can probably do a better job during the game.
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I love them, and my crews enjoys them too. I say wear them all season. Plus we look skinnier. eAt&
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Black is the new black this season?
Maybe Mike's fashion guru has something to say about that.
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They sure are comfortable. However: Nearly every sport has officials with striped shirts. And most of those have black pants. But when you see an official in knickers, that's when you *know* you're looking at a football official.
I'm enough of a traditionalist to appreciate that. I'd like to keep the knickers, and leave the slacks at the basketball courts and ice rinks.
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They sure are comfortable. However: Nearly every sport has officials with striped shirts. And most of those have black pants. But when you see an official in greyed knickers, that's when you *know* you're looking at a football official.
Always editing, I am.
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Lacrosse has white shorts...looks like the Good Humor Ice Cream guy.
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Lacrosse has white shorts..
Only for another 6 weeks or so.
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Lacrosse has white shorts...looks like the Good Humor Ice Cream guy.
hahaha. I do high school lacrosse in mass. white shorts + long sleeve shirts is funny-looking, imo. it looks like we showed up to the game and realized that we had accidentally left our short-sleeves at home. :D
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Lacrosse has white shorts...looks like the Good Humor Ice Cream guy.
So glad this is NO More.
I did not like the pant when it came out but having seen them worn I do like the look. In Central Texas not many opportunities to wear them if you use the Long sleeve with pants and short sleeves with knickers guideline. The pant and short sleeve shirt just does not look right to me.
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I wish our association would allow them. Would have likely been a lot more comfortable each of the last two Friday nights. But, some of our officials apparently told the board that they weren't going to pay for another set of pants. I figure I buy a new set of knickers each year anyway, so one year I'd make do with two year old knickers, but that's just me.
Likely, those are the same ones who are wearing those grey knickers that Livin' in the Pit references... I think some of our guys have pants they've had since before I became an official 9 seasons ago...
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I say keep 'em...and phase out the knickers.
^good
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Being in San Diego, CA I have to say "who needs 'em?"
How about a "whatever" choice?
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Our association in Arkansas notes there are two different black pants...
1) All Weather, and
2) a Heavier/Thicker, Cold Weather pant
on the market. They allow us to wear short sleeve shirts with the All Weather slack style pant, and must wear long sleeves with the Foul/Cold weather pant.
My personal opinion, is they should come out with the white pant with black stripe like the NFL wears for NFHS, and College officials to replace those old school, uncomfortable polyester knickers. Sorry if I offend anyone with a deep affection of those pants, but styles change, and so should the officials. I don't understand the argument that guys not wanting to spend money for another style of pants. That would be like hiring a carpenter to do a remodel job, and he shows up with a screwdriver, and says he didn't want to buy hammers, and other tools. I do understand tradition, and it has its merit. A mixture of the styles would be welcomed.
Baseball umpires no longer use the balloon chest protector, and nobody questions their professional appearance.
I like the comfort of the black pants, and would wear them every night. On our crew it is not even a discussion.
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Well, I voted for extreme weather but........................
We have a weather front moving in and our game Friday night will be around 35 degrees with a wind. So with that in mind one of my crew is going to pick us all up a pair at Honigs and then we will have a hemming party prior to going to the game.
Okay so I wuzzzed out!
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The NFL unilaterally decided to change their appearance so they look different from all other football officials. Apparently they didn't like different products using football officials to advertise any number of products ( or were upset they weren'y getting paid for the reference to their league).
College, High School and Youth Football officials are not NFL officials, and if you work at any of those levels you need to understand and accept that. As it turns out the black trousers do offer some practical advantages for foul weather, although the open cuffs seems like a bad idea that could easily be remedied by tapering or adding elastic.
The purpose of our uniform is to separate us from the players on the field, and nothing does that as well as white knickers, that are immediately recognized to mean only one specific thing.
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Foul weather (or field conditions) and extreme cold weather (below 40 degrees).
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Properly worn white knickers and striped socks is what separates us from intramural flag football officials.
For most of us I think there are a few other things that seperate us as well.
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:thumbup
I'm all for the black pants. more comfortable and better looking that the tight knickers.
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:thumbup
I'm all for the black pants. more comfortable and better looking that the tight knickers.
I agree - white knickers look stupid and fit terrible - go with black pants all the time.
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Not so sure those black pants would work well in Week 1 when it is still 100+ degrees and you have a game on turf............
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For most of us I think there are a few other things that seperate us as well.
You mean, like the fact that we're the only people on the field wearing baseball caps and stripes? :)
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Okay, wore them last night and they were great. I was able to layer underneath and stayed toasty despite it being about 35-38 degrees. Not bad at all. :thumbup
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At the high school level and below it seems that many "Fat old men" see officiating as a way of keeping young or close to the game. With all the pounds being hidden or not so hidden underneath those uniforms it sounds like the black pants with room to spare is the appropriate choice compared to the tight white knickers.
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At the high school level and below it seems that many "Fat old men" see officiating as a way of keeping young or close to the game. With all the pounds being hidden or not so hidden underneath those uniforms it sounds like the black pants with room to spare is the appropriate choice compared to the tight white knickers.
I doubt who ever is actually your daddy would admit to fathering such an idiot for a son.
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WYD- you seem enamored with posting about age/weight. Not sure if you truly are an official or are some sort of ref stalker but the ravages of time hit us all at some point. Please do keep us posted annually on what a physical specimine you remain. ::)
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The purpose of our uniform is to separate us from the players on the field, and nothing does that as well as white knickers, that are immediately recognized to mean only one specific thing.
That really makes no sense. Every player on the football field wears knickers. If I had to guess what the most popular color of knickers that football teams wear I would say white...teams wear white knickers no matter what color shirt they are wearing. Stripes down the side are common but they aren't really visible from the front. Plain white with no stripes isn't uncommon either. In fact it is normal to have both teams in white knickers for a game.
(http://cdn0.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/632935/40173_aptopix_big_12_nebraska_texas_footbal_large.jpg)
Now how many football players wear black slacks...?
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Now seems like a great time to make that evaluation. With all the games being televised, you can watch games where officials wear the black pants and some where they are wearing traditional knickers /striped socks. Look at the Umpires and Wing officials in front of the team boxes and determine for yourself which are easier to pick up.
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Now seems like a great time to make that evaluation. With all the games being televised, you can watch games where officials wear the black pants and some where they are wearing traditional knickers /striped socks. Look at the Umpires and Wing officials in front of the team boxes and determine for yourself which are easier to pick up.
What is the point of doing that? Neither white knickers nor black pants are supposed to stand out; that is what the striped shirt is for.
Basketball officials wear black pants and shoes....but what if a coach is wearing black pants and shoes? It sure won't be easy to pick up who the official is if you just glance at the lower half of their bodies ???
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What is the point of doing that? Neither white knickers nor black pants are supposed to stand out; that is what the striped shirt is for.
If you don't want to bother, don't bother, but take a look and see for yourself. May I suggest a good percentage of the games High School officials work don't get televised, so what you can pick up from field level is an important consideration also.
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Wow three pages of postings for such a black and white issue... ;D tiphat:
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If you don't want to bother, don't bother, but take a look and see for yourself. May I suggest a good percentage of the games High School officials work don't get televised, so what you can pick up from field level is an important consideration also.
No, it's not an important consideration. The stuff you are saying makes no sense.
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If it makes no sense to YOU, don't bother considering whether it makes sense to anyone else. You might be amazed by what lies out there, just beyond the reach of your own headlights.
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If it makes no sense to YOU, don't bother considering whether it makes sense to anyone else. You might be amazed by what lies out there, just beyond the reach of your own headlights.
Actually you should do that. Have you ever wondered why no one else in the history of wearing black pants has said "These black pants may not be as easily seen across the field at field level when the official is standing in front of the team box"? You are obviously not thinking these things through. You said white knickers make you stand out against the players....even though all players wear knickers and many time both teams in a game will also be wearing white knickers.
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If you want to act like you "logo", knock yourself out, but it's likely not going to impress very many. I didn't realize wearing back pants had a "history", nor did I say, "white knickers make you stand out against the players", although having watched multiple games this holiday weekend and observing crews in both traditional knickers and black pants, I might be leaning that way.
All I suggested was that visibility might be a point worth considering. "Look at the Umpires and Wing officials in front of the team boxes and determine for yourself which are easier to pick up", isn't reaching a conclusion, it's making a rational suggestion.
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Wow three pages of postings for such a black and white issue... ;D tiphat:
*rimshot*
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We could wear high visibility green pants. I promise you, on my butt, I would standout.
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My crew ordered 5 pairs from Hongis and used them the last 3 games, 2 were wet and muddy and the last was just plain cold. We all had them altered locally and I had mine tapered a little bit at the ankle like upstate newyork mentioned in his post. My crew and I think the whole assoc are sold on them. We are from Northeast Ohio and here in Ohio the state office makes them mandatory for the state playoffs which are finishing up tonight next to the Pro Football Hall of Fame. NO complaints here in Ohio!