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Football Officiating => General Discussion => Topic started by: Frank in FL on November 22, 2010, 08:16:48 AM

Title: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Frank in FL on November 22, 2010, 08:16:48 AM
Watching both NFL and NCAA over the weekend one thing got to me.  Are too many crews wearing long sleeves and black pants?  There were numerous games only in the 50's and 60's with crews in LS's and black pants.  More than a few officials had their shirt sleeves pulled up around the elbow in both the NCAA and NFL.  IMHO it looks like crap and unprofessional.  Why not just wear knickers and short sleeves?  Is there some kind of push on to wear the black pants when it really isn't necessary?  I thought the rationale behind the black pants is that one could layer in cold weather, not be an automatic thing when wearing long sleeves.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: bitols on November 22, 2010, 09:05:55 AM

you're right...too much sleeves pulled up around the elbow, looks like wood workers...if it is warm, wear short sleeves.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Andrew McCarthy on November 22, 2010, 10:30:42 AM
agree 100%

I was surprised to see the NFL deep guy with his sleeves rolled up to his elbows.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: VALJ on November 22, 2010, 01:14:28 PM
Agreed.  IMO, if it's warm enough to be rolling your sleeves up, it's warm enough to just wear short sleeves.  Which means it's warm enought to wear your knickers...
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: cougar729 on November 22, 2010, 01:35:29 PM
Why not just allow short sleeves with black pants, and if the crew wants knickers either way they can wear them.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: FredFan7 on November 22, 2010, 02:58:01 PM
I think this is evidence that the crews prefer black pants and would rather wear them in all instances instead of knickers - but at this point black pants must be worn with long sleeves.

Wait for about 3-10 years because I predict the knickers will be retired and black pants will be worn in all weather.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Osric Pureheart on November 22, 2010, 04:25:08 PM
Agreed.  IMO, if it's warm enough to be rolling your sleeves up, it's warm enough to just wear short sleeves.  Which means it's warm enought to wear your knickers...

Different people have different temperature tolerances.  I usually end up breaking out my short sleeves at least two weeks before everyone else that I work with, and if I switched back to long sleeves when they all do I'd overheat in about five minutes.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: jc on November 27, 2010, 10:19:44 AM
Last weekend was a mix match of uniforms and looked terrible.  I saw a TX high school game where the 5 man crew was wearing plackards on the back.  In the Hawaii game, they had short sleeves and black pants.  I don't really like the black pants because to me it looks like a Y league game, but if we're going to wear them, there needs to be some guidelines and they need to be adhered to. 
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Luke on November 27, 2010, 05:41:32 PM
Agreed.  IMO, if it's warm enough to be rolling your sleeves up, it's warm enough to just wear short sleeves.  Which means it's warm enought to wear your knickers...

Black pants aren't any warmer than knickers.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Etref on November 27, 2010, 07:20:36 PM
No they are not................. but they are oversized and you can layer under them without looking like the Michelin Man
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Luke on November 27, 2010, 07:27:33 PM
No they are not................. but they are oversized and you can layer under them without looking like the Michelin Man

Yes, I know.  I thought he was saying that black pants were to knickers as long sleeve shirts are to short sleeve shirts.  It can never be "warm enough to wear your knickers" as pants are just as warm/cool as knickers. 

It can be cold enough to wear pants because of the layering options like you said.  But black pants aren't only for extreme cold.  In a few years everyone will be wearing pants for every game.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: HLinNC on November 27, 2010, 09:21:49 PM
Got to disagree with you just a bit Stretch- the Honig's fabric is heavier than say Gerry Davis.  The Davis pant would be more comfortable for warmer weather.

I forsee a foul weather (heavy) version and a summer/tropic version down the road, particularly if Honig's can coerce states to have to buy both! :bOW
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: VALJ on November 27, 2010, 11:03:21 PM
Yes, I know.  I thought he was saying that black pants were to knickers as long sleeve shirts are to short sleeve shirts.  It can never be "warm enough to wear your knickers" as pants are just as warm/cool as knickers. 

Ah - I've never even seen a pair of black pants, much less worn them.  Apparently, some of our vets are reluctant to buy a new pair of pants.  Of course, a good number of our vets are wearing knickers that look like they're about 10 years old, so it seems like they're reluctant to buy knickers, too.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: TxGrayhat on November 28, 2010, 02:28:27 PM
I think we could see the black pants year round. There are reasons besides just keeping you warmer if you layer under them. In the long run they will be less costly They wont stain like knickers do on muddy nights. They wont turn yellow. (However if you spill bleach on em the night before a game your in big trouble.) You don't need to keep buying the striped socks.  If its just the look of white pants people have trouble over coming get rid of knickers and make theses pants in white... Brady Bunch Style  LOL
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: 110 on November 28, 2010, 10:11:13 PM
If its just the look of white pants people have trouble over coming get rid of knickers and make theses pants in white... Brady Bunch Style  LOL

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Zloh1WLRUSM/TCp4gP_BmmI/AAAAAAAAAEM/c_1S-4EoWEw/s320/SaturdayNightFever_300x298.jpg)
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: LarryW60 on November 29, 2010, 06:23:49 AM
I agree with the thread title.  There are way too many threads here about black pants.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Luke on November 29, 2010, 12:25:27 PM
I think we could see the black pants year round.

We will be seeing then year round.  It is only a matter of time.  The only reason to wear knickers is because of the way they look.  The black pants are superior to them in every way and will soon take over as the normal uniform.  They have already taken over as the standard in college for use with long sleeve shirts.  It isn't extremely cold, it isn't raining or muddy, there really is no reason to use the pants but they are used anyways.  Pants will soon be common with short sleeve shirts also.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: elewis023 on December 24, 2010, 12:49:38 PM
What looks even worse with the black pants is having white socks on.  Of course, they are wearing black shoes, so all you see are these flashes of white.  Looks ridiculous.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: HLinNC on December 24, 2010, 12:56:49 PM
Black socks are a must.  I prefer to wear the black baseball/soccer style socks with them instead of crew socks.

Has anyone seen the ACC officials Nike's this season?  They almost look like clown shoes- black and liberal doses of white trimming.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: InsideTheStripes on December 25, 2010, 10:44:25 PM
I can't wait until knickers go the way of the dodo.  Grown men wearing knickers, for any reason, looks absurd. 

Give me my black plants and leave me the hell alone.   :)
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: AlUpstateNY on December 26, 2010, 11:45:40 AM
Perhaps I'm just a dodo, but both from the practice of watching games on the field, and watching them on TV, I find the white knickers much more visible than these black pants.  Sorry, but I just don't get the "fashion" related advantages/disadvantages of one style of pants over the other, and I absolutely do not believe anyone on the planet, aside from the officials on whatever field you may be looking at, could possibly care less, either way.

The long pants do offer advantages related to layering in cold weather, and I suspect those advantages would apply if the the pants were white, without without a black stripe.  I would like to see a tapered, or even elasticed cuff on the pants, so when they ride down, from all the running around, we're not stepping on the cuffs with the heel.

Remember, the primary purpose of the uniform is to differentiate us from the players, and recognition and visibility are the main concerns.  I've got 2 (full uniform) pictures of crews  I've worked with; one from years ago where we're all in knickers and one from this season in black pants.  Side by side the difference in visibility is startling.  These full length pants do offer some distinct advantages, but I wouldn't suggest throwing any knickers away just yet.  Fads come and go, traditional standards last a lot longer. 

Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Sumstine on December 26, 2010, 10:00:33 PM
What looks even worse with the black pants is having white socks on.

Not a Michael Jackson fan? tiphat:
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: InsideTheStripes on December 27, 2010, 12:20:31 AM
Remember, the primary purpose of the uniform is to differentiate us from the players, and recognition and visibility are the main concerns.

If that's the primary purpose, we should go all black all the time.  Is your contention that black full length pants are harder to differentiate, recognize and see by players wearing (white or non-white) pants that start at the hip and end just below the knee?
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Etref on December 27, 2010, 08:33:09 AM
If that's the primary purpose, we should go all black all the time.  Is your contention that black full length pants are harder to differentiate, recognize and see by players wearing (white or non-white) pants that start at the hip and end just below the knee?

Where have you been calling, most of them look like short pants.     ;D
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Grant - AR on December 27, 2010, 09:49:02 AM
Grown men wearing knickers, for any reason, looks absurd. 

While I agree that I like the black pants better than the knickers, I have to disagree with the above statement.  I was always a fan of Payne Stewart.

(http://www.chapeaunoirgolf.com/storage/stewart_vest_tie.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1256572571493)
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: AlUpstateNY on December 27, 2010, 09:52:13 AM
If that's the primary purpose, we should go all black all the time.  Is your contention that black full length pants are harder to differentiate, recognize and see by players wearing (white or non-white) pants that start at the hip and end just below the knee?

I don't think there is any great "visibility" difference experienced by players regarding the black pants versus white knickers, although I am contending that the standard uniform, consisting of white knickers AND black and white striped long stockings is more visible.  

There are advantages, as well as disadvantages to both styles of pants.  Full length pants allow for a wide variety of under garments to effectively deal with the weather, although those of us who work in extreme weather conditions have adapted to the options that are currently available, or choose to suffer.  Weather resistant fabrics are a great development, but can be shaped to fit either style.  I can't see any real advantage as for dealing with mud or slop as either way the garments require cleaning when soiled.  As for knickers turning yellow, either they are not being washed properly or are being used well after their "expiration" date, which is a practice that will likely take the crispness out of black pants as well.

Knickers and striped socks  have an advantage of being a recognizable icon associated ONLY with football officiating, world wide.  Somewhere there's a lingering message about , "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Welpe on December 27, 2010, 06:51:47 PM
Where have you been calling, most of them look like short pants.     ;D

Bermuda Shorts.   ;D
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: busman on December 28, 2010, 08:51:33 AM
I still love white shorts if the temperature is over 70!  Lacrosse has it right.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Mark uk on December 28, 2010, 11:18:39 AM
Apparently, some of our vets are reluctant to buy a new pair of pants.  Of course, a good number of our vets are wearing knickers that look like they're about 10 years old, so it seems like they're reluctant to buy knickers, too.

Sadly I suspect this is why it will be years before I'm allowed to wear a pair of black pants. Maybe we should institute an official 'white card'; if your knickers are visibly grey next to the card you've got to buy a new pair. Then forced to spend some money maybe common sense would prevail in certain quarters.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: VALJ on December 29, 2010, 11:52:58 AM
I agree with the thread title.  There are way too many threads here about black pants.

Fadamor, I just want to let you know that somebody here got the joke on this one...   ;D
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: NTXRef on December 30, 2010, 08:41:34 PM
If the black pants weren't officially out of control, they are now.   Temperatures pushing 70 degrees in Dallas for Armed Forces Bowl and WAC officials show up with ls and the dredded black pants.  70 degrees - c'mon guys!  Anybody on my crew would have been reprimanded for any mentioning long sleeves at this temp. ^no
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: cwag on December 30, 2010, 11:36:14 PM
I worked on the chain crew at the Armed Forces Bowl.  We were in short sleeves and comfortable. I like the black pants look, but it really needs to be cold to justify wearing them.  When will we see a crew wearing them with short sleeves?

It was a great experience.  I hope to get to do it again someday.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: bama_stripes on December 31, 2010, 08:12:10 AM
I like the black pants look, but it really needs to be cold to justify wearing them.  When will we see a crew wearing them with short sleeves?

Temperature not withstanding, I'd like to have the option to wear black pants with s/s for games played on muddy fields.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Matt on December 31, 2010, 12:04:35 PM
In Michigan these are officially deemed to be "Foul Weather Pants" and it is up to individual crews as to what foul weather is. This is from our head of officials for the MHSAA Mark Uyl when I spoke to him at the state championships at Ford Field. In the 8 games I think half of the crews wore black pants with short sleeves.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Welpe on December 31, 2010, 12:14:25 PM
Temperature not withstanding, I'd like to have the option to wear black pants with s/s for games played on muddy fields.

Agreed.  I've worked some hot, humid games after a rain storm that turned the field into a quagmire.  I think I washed my knickers three or four times after one of those games.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: NTXRef on December 31, 2010, 02:55:15 PM
I worked on the chain crew at the Armed Forces Bowl.  We were in short sleeves and comfortable. I like the black pants look, but it really needs to be cold to justify wearing them.  When will we see a crew wearing them with short sleeves?

It was a great experience.  I hope to get to do it again someday.

My point exactly.   You were carrying chains and comfortable with short sleeves.   I was in stands comfortable.   So, what was the rationale to wearing the garb?  Was somebody cold or was if for the "look"?

btw, Liberty Bowl being played right now in basically same conditions and the guys have got the ss and knickers. tiphat:
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Luke on December 31, 2010, 03:22:27 PM
I worked on the chain crew at the Armed Forces Bowl.  We were in short sleeves and comfortable. I like the black pants look, but it really needs to be cold to justify wearing them.  When will we see a crew wearing them with short sleeves?

Why does it need to be cold?  These are not lined pants which keep you warm.  In a few years it will be weird to see any officials wearing knickers.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: RMR on January 01, 2011, 04:10:24 PM
Props to Steve Shaw's crew for sticking to their knickers with long sleeve shirts.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: TxSkyBolt on January 01, 2011, 07:19:31 PM
Props to Steve Shaw's crew for sticking to their knickers with long sleeve shirts.

....at 60 degrees...brrrrrrrrr
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Rulesman on January 01, 2011, 09:55:56 PM
....at 60 degrees...brrrrrrrrr
It gets chiily quick when the sun goes down in SoCal at this time of the year. Temp at game end was in the low 50s.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Welpe on January 01, 2011, 10:50:12 PM
Props to Steve Shaw's crew for sticking to their knickers with long sleeve shirts.

Knickers and long sleeves look so...outdated.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: AlUpstateNY on January 02, 2011, 11:56:03 AM
Perhaps this crew was more concerned, and focused, on the job at hand rather than making a fashion statement.  Fashions come and go, standards don't become standards unless, and until, they last beyond fads.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: bacwood on January 05, 2011, 10:59:07 AM
Down with knicker!!! pray:;
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: 110 on January 05, 2011, 05:02:25 PM
Down with knicker!!! pray:;

I'd rather not be mooning the public. At least, not until I lose about 40 pounds.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: bossman72 on January 27, 2011, 12:15:01 PM
I not only like the black pants for cold days, but the muddy days too.  Hides the mud stains much much better and are easier to clean out.  You can keep your knickers pretty.

FWIW - NFL officials must wear black pants if they wear long sleeves.  No more long sleeves and knickers in the NFL.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: GreggLong on February 10, 2011, 03:45:31 PM
The NFL has experimented with the black pants and short sleeve shirts this year and last. They will ultimately go to the black pants for all games within two years. The NCAA will follow suit within a couple of years of that. State HS Associations will be more hesitant to follow suit.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: Welpe on February 11, 2011, 09:15:14 AM
The NCAA will follow suit within a couple of years of that.

The NCAA beat the NFL to the punch.
Title: Re: Too Much Black Pants?
Post by: fleetofoot on February 11, 2011, 12:20:19 PM
Get over it and buy the pants. I remember when we had to buy yellow flags to replace our red ones. It is called evolution.