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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: A10LJ on November 29, 2010, 08:40:04 PM
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Is there such a thing as an "inadvertant signal" in high school? I see there is reference to an inadvertant whistle but does the NF book reference an inadvertant signal? Thanks in advance!!!
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the referee holds one arm out straight with a closed fist. That is the HS inadvertent whistle signal.
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There is no inadvertent signal in FED.
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Try looking at S12 Walt.
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footballjeff is correct
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I don't think he's talking about the signal FOR an inadvertant whistle, I think he means is there such a thing as an "inadvertant signal".
EXAMPLE: Ball thrown into the end zone, caught by the defense. Without blowing a whistle, LJ raises his arm and signals touchback. Except the DB that caught the ball runs it out of the end zone and goes 104 yards for a TD. Did the signal of touchback kill the ball?
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Same situation, ball thrown into the end zone, DB intercepts, LJ, thinking it was the WR that caught it, throws up his hands for a TD. Since he is wearing a finger whistle, he isn't blowing it. DB runs for 104 yards. Did the TD signal kill the play?
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Atlanta Blue, you are correct. I want to know if the LJ signals inadvertantely without blowing his whistle can we replay the down as if he BLEW his whistle? Thanks in advance.
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Signals don't kill a play and for the most part whistles don't kill the play either (except for IWs). A signal of a touchdown/touchback/safety indicate something that already happened to kill the play. If a touchback is incorrectly signalled (i.e. the play isn't dead yet) and the player runs back into the field of play, I'm thinking we should let the play continue.
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Signals don't kill a play and for the most part whistles don't kill the play either (except for IWs). A signal of a touchdown/touchback/safety indicate something that already happened to kill the play. If a touchback is incorrectly signalled (i.e. the play isn't dead yet) and the player runs back into the field of play, I'm thinking we should let the play continue.
But suppose the players react to your signal?
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Well, in the case of an apparent touchback, the runner is probably not going to try and run it out if there are defenders able to stop him right there. Also, any defenders would be concentrating on the player with the ball, not an official on a sideline. Defenders near the runner would never see the official and those farther away would have ample time to react to the runner's continued play. If I was a coach and had a player on my team stop pursuing because of a hand signal an official gave, my first thing would be to get in the player's face and "ask" (in a calm, collected manner, of course) why is he watching the officials instead of the ball carrier?
eAt&
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I think that is way to simplisitic. I promise you will have a coach who saw the touchback signal. I think if questioned, this is one you have to eat. Just like a baseball umpire signalling a foul ball on a ball clearly fair, or a softball umpire raising his hand to call timeout and then the infielder misses the cutoff and the ball goes through a hole in the fence. It's a bell that can't be unrung.
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But suppose the players react to your signal?
Sorry, the official made a mistake and anybody who reacted to the signal was wrong in doing so. The official may have to suffer the consequences of his error, be it whining immediately after the fact or some sort of reprimand after the game, but play goes on. Whistle is a different matter, with a whole different set of remedies.
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Here is the play. A has the ball, they are down by 2 points. Last play of the game. A snaps, throws a backwards pass that hits the ground. LJ signals an incomplete pass. No whistle. B stops playing and A picks up the ball and runs for TD. Time expires. What should be the correct ruling????
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You've got an incomplete pass. If time expired, game over.
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I think that is way to simplisitic. I promise you will have a coach who saw the touchback signal. I think if questioned, this is one you have to eat. Just like a baseball umpire signalling a foul ball on a ball clearly fair, or a softball umpire raising his hand to call timeout and then the infielder misses the cutoff and the ball goes through a hole in the fence. It's a bell that can't be unrung.
Why would I care if a coach saw the inapplicable touchback signal? They're not on the field and what they see has ZERO effect on the play in progress. If a coach complains, my sole response would be, "Coach, was the ball dead by rule in the endzone?"
For those that want to parallel this with IW's, the ball IS dead by rule when an IW happens.
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Here is the play. A has the ball, they are down by 2 points. Last play of the game. A snaps, throws a backwards pass that hits the ground. LJ signals an incomplete pass. No whistle. B stops playing and A picks up the ball and runs for TD. Time expires. What should be the correct ruling????
That is not an 'inadvertant signal' -- that is a blown call. To me, 'inadvertant signal' is just a nicer way of saying 'I really blew that one'.
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Here is the play. A has the ball, they are down by 2 points. Last play of the game. A snaps, throws a backwards pass that hits the ground. LJ signals an incomplete pass. No whistle. B stops playing and A picks up the ball and runs for TD. Time expires. What should be the correct ruling????
You mean besides grilling the LJ as to why he would worry about giving an incomplete signal before whistling the play dead? Every official I know whistles on an incomplete pass, THEN gives a signal.
No whistles and the ball is not dead BY RULE so the play continues. If you want to start making up your own rules, you need to start a new league.
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just asking the question so I can get help with the correct ruling. So NFHS rules done have an inadvertant signal?
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Nope. The only thing inadvertant in the NFHS is an IW.
Oh. And the horrible wording on some of the rules. LOL
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For those of you that always want to throw out 1-1-6, this may be the time to do it. The official made a call to which at least some players reacted and stopped playing. How can you, in equity, now say, "Sorry, that call doesn't matter."
The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good
sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The ref -
eree’s decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.
The referee decided that the "inadvertant signal" caused play to stop, even though there was no inadvertant whistle. In the spirit of good sportsmanship, the referee decides to treat the inadvertant signal the same way he would treat an inadvertant whistle.
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I'm sorry, but if you give an incomplete pass signal or a touchback signal, even if it's wrong, you've got to live with it. That is the only equitable thing to do.
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Here is the play. A has the ball, they are down by 2 points. Last play of the game. A snaps, throws a backwards pass that hits the ground. LJ signals an incomplete pass. No whistle. B stops playing and A picks up the ball and runs for TD. Time expires. What should be the correct ruling????
Touchdown for A; end of game unless point differential is a playoff factor, in which case the game ends after the try.
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I'm sorry, but if you give an incomplete pass signal or a touchback signal, even if it's wrong, you've got to live with it. That is the only equitable thing to do.
Oh, no doubt the giver of an incorrect signal will catch hell, and deservedly so. But by rule, the the giver should catch hell for misinforming the players, not for killing the play. In the absence of a whistle, game on. And I would suggest that a whistle would only compound the error.
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Ugh. I'd hate to be on a crew where the referee brought out the "God Rule" for something like this. We'd see it brought out for all sorts of little things, then.
We give coaches grief for telling their players to "play until the whistle" because when the ball is dead by rule, THAT is when they need to stop playing. In this case we don't have the ball dead by rule and don't have a whistle, yet now we have a coach arguing that his players should stop playing when an official gives a hand signal because hand signals carry the same weight as a whistle in causing a live ball to become dead.
Sorry, not buying it. ^no
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I talked with a couple of my crew members about this play, and it's really not an easy decision.
As the R, if I saw a wing give an incomplete pass signal (but no whistle), and I saw players pull up as a result of that signal, I'd likely be blowing MY whistle. I'd figure that my wing had dropped his whistle, and the play should have been blown dead.
Upon questioning the wing, I'd find out that:
(a) He ruled incomplete, and either forgot to blow his whistle, or it dropped out of his mouth. The game would be over, and we'd have to live with his (probably erroneous) judgment.
or
(b) He ruled a backward pass, and mistakenly gave the incomplete pass signal instead of a punch-back. Since I would have blown my whistle, we'd have an IW and administer it using the rule in place.
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Try looking at S12 Walt.
I know the signal for an inadvertent whistle. I don't believe that's what was being asked.
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REPLY: I'm assuming that BigEastLJ asked the question because the NCAA rules do indeed recognize an 'inadvertent signal' and does treat it exactly like they would an inadvertent whistle.
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For those of you that always want to throw out 1-1-6, this may be the time to do it. The official made a call to which at least some players reacted and stopped playing. How can you, in equity, now say, "Sorry, that call doesn't matter."
The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good
sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The ref -
eree’s decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.
The referee decided that the "inadvertant signal" caused play to stop, even though there was no inadvertant whistle. In the spirit of good sportsmanship, the referee decides to treat the inadvertant signal the same way he would treat an inadvertant whistle.
So, AB, if your team were on defense in this "end of game (backward pass)scenario", and thought you had just scored the winning TD, you'd be "okay" with the subsequent "referee's decision" to disallow it? I'd think even God would be chased to the locker room....
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So, AB, if your team were on defense in this "end of game (backward pass)scenario", and thought you had just scored the winning TD, you'd be "okay" with the subsequent "referee's decision" to disallow it? I'd think even God would be chased to the locker room....
In the heat of the moment, of course I would be upset. But logically (which admitedly, doesn't always occur during games), if players react to the "inadvertant signal" and stop playing, then yes, I think it should be treated just like an inadvertant whistle.
After all, in this play, had the offense not stopped playing when they saw the signal, how likely would we have been to score a TD anyway?
Don't confuse a coach's rant during a game with how he really feels about the call. Many a call that is complained about during a game is admitted to be a fair one afterward. Face it, we aren't unbiased while coaching!
But - after after I calm down and I watch the film and I'm STILL complaining, then listen, because there's a good chance you missed that one!
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Don't confuse a coach's rant during a game with how he really feels about the call. Many a call that is complained about during a game is admitted to be a fair one afterward. Face it, we aren't unbiased while coaching!
But - after after I calm down and I watch the film and I'm STILL complaining, then listen, because there's a good chance you missed that one!
Hell, if I can see a film even I might admit we missed it!
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Don't confuse a coach's rant during a game with how he really feels about the call. Many a call that is complained about during a game is admitted to be a fair one afterward. Face it, we aren't unbiased while coaching!
But - after after I calm down and I watch the film and I'm STILL complaining, then listen, because there's a good chance you missed that one!
The part I don't get, is why do coaches think they are entitled to rant about anything? A coach can question, dispute, ask for an explanation but isn't he supposed to behave like a rational adult and be civil? Do you really believe ranting gains you anything? Do you really think I'm going to be more attentive, more serious about what I'm doing because someone screamed at me? Do you treat someone more favorably when they berate you?
If I didn't see "that" hold, or your film suggests something I called didn't actually happen, what do you hope to accomplish by "still complaining" after viewing it on film? Is something going to change? Will the decision be reversed? I totally understood before the game began, that I would most certainly be somewhat less than absolutely perfect but was committed to being the best I possibly can be. Aside from an incorrect ruling about something, whereas pointing out my mistake can help me avoid repeating it, what is the benefit of, a coach, pointing out that I missed a call?
Of all the "ranting" that's ever taken place on your sideline, how many times has it accomplished something, anything positive?
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A ranting coach accomplishes something, but it's not positive. A ranting coach incites the fans, putting the official's safety at risk. It's the ultimate in childish irresponsibility.
I don't know. Maybe the coach feels his job security is improved if he shows the AD he's passionate during the game? ^no
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Come on Al and Fad; give AB a break.
His reply was mostly a tongue-in-cheek reply to my tongue-in-cheek comment about being okay with stopping the play (or reversing an aparent touchdown) because of an erroneous signal.
AB is one of the few coaches I WOULD listen to......probably
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Who really cares whether a coach is ranting or not? Why should we even pay much attention to such racket? As a game official, I will simply ignore this type of noise and continue to perform my duties. By continuing to whine, a coach as effectively taken himself out of the game mentally. Ignoring him makes him appear rather silly as he ends up basically talking to himself.
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Jay, I agree with you up to a point. If the ranting starts getting personal, however, I will get it stopped. If it's an assistant coach doing the ranting, I will warn the head coach that his assistant is about to cost his team 15 yards. That usually resolves the issue without a flag. If it's the head coach doing the ranting, then I've had less luck with the warning and had to flag more often.
If the ranting deals with the crew's integrity, then the flag is dropped with no warning.