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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on December 31, 2010, 01:36:02 PM
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http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2010/12/ncaa-officials-coordinator-backs-calls-in-pinstripe-music-city-bowls/1
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Well, so much for the illegal participation on the last play vs. ILS!
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Quote: "Tyler Yates went to spike the ball, but several members of the field-goal unit came on the field, causing Yates to hesitate. The clock showed no time left after he threw the ball into the ground. Officials called the game over, but replay officials stopped the Vols' celebration.
The final ruling was a five-yard penalty on the Tar Heels for too many men on the field, but that there was one second left on the clock"
OK... I am understand the I.R. putting the 1 sec left on the clock. But can someone please explain the difference between Illegal Particaption (15 Yards) and Illegal Subsitution (5 yards)?
Approved Ruling 9-1-5
I. Team A, with 12 men on the field of play, snaps at its 40-yard line
and throws a complete or incomplete forward pass. RULING: Illegal
participation. Penalty—15 yards from the previous spot.
Technically it was 13-14 UNC players (ON THE FIELD OF PLAY) at the time of the snap. So why were they not backed up 15 yards??
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Big Surprise the former B10 chief supports these calls...
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There's discusssion on another thread about the 5 vs. 15 "confusion." TXMike came up with something that indicates at least one conference doesn't want 15 called in that situation.
So now we can question since when do the conferences determine rule interpretation? I thought the purpose of a National Coordinator was to get rid of all the individual philosophy. Obviously, there is still some work to be done.
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There's discusssion on another thread about the 5 vs. 15 "confusion." TXMike came up with something that indicates at least one conference doesn't want 15 called in that situation.
So now we can question since when do the conferences determine rule interpretation? I thought the purpose of a National Coordinator was to get rid of all the individual philosophy. Obviously, there is still some work to be done.
They flagged ILS. I'm not sure that replay can change a call from ILS to ILP. Had they not called anything, replay could have came back in and made an ILP call.
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I've been trying to make sense of this all day:
12-3-6. No other plays or officiating decisions are reviewable. However, the replay official may correct egregious errors, including those
involving the game clock, whether or not a play is reviewable. This excludes fouls that are not specifically reviewable (Reviewable fouls: Rules 12-3-2-c and d, 12-3-4-b and 12-3-5-a).
3-2-2-b Timing errors on the game clock may be corrected but shall be corrected only in the period in which they occur.
3-2-2-c If the referee has positive knowledge of the elapsed time, he will reset and appropriately start the game clock.
3-1-1-a No period shall end until the ball is dead and the referee declares the period ended.
I remember the referee declaring the game was over. Shouldn't that mean the period has ended and therefore timing errors cannot be corrected? Or is there some aspect of Rule 12 that I'm not understanding. I would think that when the referee declares the game over that replay would no longer apply. Apparently I'm wrong (for the last time this year!), but I'm curious as to why?
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I suspect whomever was wearing the IR buzzer got buzzed before the R made his announcement but in the chaose could not get to him. It is the same thing when the ball appears to be snapped beofre they stop for IR In reality, thebuzzer went off before the snap, but the R just did not know it
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Not asking Replay to change the call. Just simply want to know When can Illegal Participation be called. To me it seems as if they only way officials will call it these days if someone can't count quick enough to only give team a 5 yard ILS?
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just saw the replay of this play. isn't this play like A.R. 3.5.2.I???
Any player(s), in excess of 11, obviously is withdrawing but has not
reached a boundary line when the ball is put in play and he does not
interfere with play or players. RULING: Penalty—Five yards from
the previous spot (Rules 7-1-3-b Penalty and 7-1-4-b Penalty).
i've only seen the replay once, but looked like the players were trying to get off the field, and did not participate in play? that is a proper 5 yarder in my book
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Count the number of Team A guys stationary in the formation, not counting any of those who were running off. You will see 12
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Well, so much for the illegal participation on the last play vs. ILS!
I think the video from this game in the thread entitled "Carryover Penalty into OT" shows that NC had 12 men on the field and participating in the next to last down. It's a bit fuzzy, but stop the video at 32 sec., just after the QB's spike. I count 12 white-jerseyed NC players coming off the field.
Does anyone else count 12?
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Yep They had 12 (including a kicker and holder behind the QB)
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I suspect whomever was wearing the IR buzzer got buzzed before the R made his announcement but in the chaose could not get to him. It is the same thing when the ball appears to be snapped beofre they stop for IR In reality, thebuzzer went off before the snap, but the R just did not know it
At least in the SEC, ALL officials except the Back Judge wear the buzzers. If IR was buzzing, the R knew it. It's not a gentle vibrate, it will shake your innards.
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They flagged ILS. I'm not sure that replay can change a call from ILS to ILP. Had they not called anything, replay could have came back in and made an ILP call.
Jason, read 12-3-5a.
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Jason, read 12-3-5a.
Got it. I was just going off a statement someone else made in the chat room last night.
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Jason, read 12-3-5a.
That is not real clear on if they can change a call on the field from ILS to ILP, or just determine if there were more than 11. The videoreview is usually used in this situation to see if a player running off the field got off the field before the snap as he was running off. d
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Our IR interpretation is that more than 11 on the field and not attempting to leave can be corrected by IR. Players in excess of 11 trying to get off the field is totally within the discretion (therefore not reviewable) of the on field officials as to ILS vs. IP.
I beleive that is the national interpretation as well.
My hunch is that Parry's comment may have been made without the knowledge that 12 players were set in formation at the snap. So I would not read too much into his statement. Just my pure guess, however.
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Of course, there is another way to avoid this mess: hold the clock to allow both sides reasonable time to make whatever substitutions they feel appropriate.
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Of course, there is an other way to avoid this mess: hold the clock to allow both sides reasonable time to make whatever substitutions they feel appropriate.
:o :o :o
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One of the biggest issues we have this time of year as every Bowl Season is we have announcers that work NFL gams on Sunday and do not/will not know the rules of College Football. I watched the games with 7 of my buddies yesterday and they were astonished that the Rules Committee was made up entirely of coaches. One of them had the best quote of the night, "What the hell do coaches know about the rules?"
The problem you have is the Big 10/11/12 or whatever they are have made 2 calls that get really sticky and then the North Carolina-Tennessee game has a defender do a throat slash, one did not one, but a double handed salute and then it does not get called. I may have missed it somewhere but I thought CFO was to ensure that mechanics and rules were carried out the same across the country. Sorry to rant, but this is part of our problem as Officials having to defend ourselves when a guy from Alabama, or California calls it differently than the guy from Texas or Michigan. I know Todd Geerlings and he is a stand up guy and is at the top of his game. He handled about as well as he could with what he had to work with.
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:o :o :o
It's what we do up here in the frozen hinterlands. We hold the RFP until both teams have made their subs.
'Course, we also have way odd timing for the last three minutes, too.
Maybe the other way around is to allow a play to get off if there's still time on the clock at the start of that play? (We also do that up here.)
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imo, i just don't think we'll make any more strides in true consistancy accross the country until the cfo gets seme true clout. my understanding is (and I could be wrong)...the only thing the cfo office has control over is which conferences recieves which bowl assignments. they obviously don't decide which officials work the game, just which conference. this may not even be the case, i just think that's the way it works. until the cfo gets more power than that...or until Parry starts withholding bowl assignments to conferences that supervisors don't follow the cfo mandates, i just don't see us making more strides towards national consistancy. i'm not saying any of the calls i have seen is worthy of loosing bowl assignments...this is more of just a commentary of the cfo and national consistancy.
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I watched the games with 7 of my buddies yesterday and they were astonished that the Rules Committee was made up entirely of coaches. One of them had the best quote of the night, "What the hell do coaches know about the rules?"
More like the worst quote of the night. First off Rogers Redding is on the committee....he isn't a coach. 5 of the voting members are not coaches, 3 of them are athletic directors and the other 2 are conference commissioners. In fact there is a quota of how many administrators (non-coaches) must be on the committee. And why would anyone think that the rules committee members don't know anything about the rules?
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If you think that was the worst quote of the night, you must have watched the games with the sound muted.
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If you think that was the worst quote of the night, you must have watched the games with the sound muted.
tiphat:
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Going back to the Music City Bowl...at what point should the umpire have stepped over the ball? I was under the impression he was to do so when the offense started entering players?
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I may have missed it somewhere but I thought CFO was to ensure that mechanics and rules were carried out the same across the country. Sorry to rant, but this is part of our problem as Officials having to defend ourselves when a guy from Alabama, or California calls it differently than the guy from Texas or Michigan.
You may be in the right church, but the wrong pew. The problem isn't a lack of precise consistency between conferences, regions even games, it's the ridiculous expectation that there can ever be precise consistency on every play in ever situation, wherever the game is played. Such consistency will ONLY be achieded right after we achieve officiating perfection.
Surprise, surprise, Instant Replay didn't solve all the problems, doesn't correct all the errors, all it seems to accomplish is feed the needs of those who like to argue beyond the level of a gnat's eyelash. Players don't always execute as directed, coaches don't always select the exact right play and officials make judgments, limited to the best of their abilities. Forgive me, but the formula has worked pretty well, although not perfectly, for some 130+ years.
As Forrest Guump advised us, in football just like in the rest of life, sometimes no matter how careful we might be, ""Stuff" happens", and like it or not, we just have to deal with it.
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You are correct... but in defense of the U and the crew, having been in several similar situations, the U does not always see the incoming subs and is concentrating on getting the ball back to the hash and getting out of the way. The R and wing (in this case the L) needed to communicate this to him both by the "iron cross" and by yelling to him that there were subs coming on, but I'm sure they were caught by surprise as well, not to mention the crowd volume. I got caught "not" being aware of the substitutions this year but luckily it didn't hurt us. In my haste and not anticipating A substituting, I put the crew in a bad situation. I really learned something that day.
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Going back to the Music City Bowl...at what point should the umpire have stepped over the ball? I was under the impression he was to do so when the offense started entering players?
When an offense is in a hurry up like that, most all of us, rightly or wrongly, become focused on getting the ball ready for play so they can go. And the offense is in such a hurry to go, they SHOULD abstain from subbing because they SHOULD know the rule which would cause them to be slowed down if the sub was noticed.
But in an ideal world, the U would have noticed the attempted subbing going on and the team already at the LOS ready to snap. That might have spurred him to linger over the ball a bit to see if B was responding.
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Thanks VA-Ump. I was not trying to criticize the crew, I was simply just trying to understand the proper mechanic. I know how crazy some of these situations can get and how something can get missed.
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More like the worst quote of the night. First off Rogers Redding is on the committee....he isn't a coach. 5 of the voting members are not coaches, 3 of them are athletic directors and the other 2 are conference commissioners. In fact there is a quota of how many administrators (non-coaches) must be on the committee. And why would anyone think that the rules committee members don't know anything about the rules?
I thought (maybe the wrong thing to have done) that Rogers Redding did not get a vote. Those words came from his mouth at our Summer Meeting last year. He is there to act as an advisor to them. Secondly, one of the coaches on there in a D-II conference wants everybody to know that he is on the committee and makes it a point every game to tell the officials he is on it. This particluar coach argued with our Side Judge for 2 plays that he couldbe in the white area all day as lons as he did not interfere with the game! This is a guy who says he wants our opinion and then he chest bumps our SJ when w fumble happened in front of him and he got mad when he gets knocked down during the scramble for the loose ball. Guess where he was standing. IN THE WHITE! That is when he chest bumped the official and then got 30 yards and did not get the fumble.
The point I was trying to make was that when you have non-officials making Rules Changes, you get what you get.
What do you do with a dead horse? You bury the Sucker!!!
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Less than a minute left in a game, team behind and driving, something has to click in your brain that the team will run a hurry up and try to tie the game. Expect anything. In games like this when it is close at some point i tell the crew as soon as i can expect anything, make it big. This was big.
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I thought (maybe the wrong thing to have done) that Rogers Redding did not get a vote. Those words came from his mouth at our Summer Meeting last year. He is there to act as an advisor to them...
You are correct... I heard the same thing. RR is there in an advisory capacity only. He is not a voting member of the rules committee.
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NCAA FB Rules Committee:
http://web1.ncaa.org/committees/committees_roster.jsp?CommitteeName=FBRULES (http://web1.ncaa.org/committees/committees_roster.jsp?CommitteeName=FBRULES)
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Does the appointment of Will Prewitt as Commissioner of the New Arkansas/Oklahoma Division 2 conference mean that Todd Knight will have to give up his place on the committee? That would mean 2 folks from the same conference on the Rules Committee.
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Does the appointment of Will Prewitt as Commissioner of the New Arkansas/Oklahoma Division 2 conference mean that Todd Knight will have to give up his place on the committee? That would mean 2 folks from the same conference on the Rules Committee.
Interesting question. (You would LOVE that, wouldn't you)? >:D
Or would Prewitt have to give up his seat?
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Double standard for celebrations
By Mechelle Voepel
ESPN.com
January 5, 2011
Last month, the NCAA presided over a championship during which -- if flags were thrown in this sport -- hundreds might have been tossed for the excessive celebration.
This behavior exists in virtually every collegiate athletic competition, and for the most part nobody gives it any mind at all. In fact, it's not even considered a negative thing. So why is it a point of emphasis in football?............................
........... The specific rule (9-2-1d) states a penalty is justified for "any delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed act by which a player attempts to focus attention on himself [or themselves]."
It's absurd to suggest the salute was delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed. So if it's just about Hilburn "drawing attention" to himself … heck, didn't he draw attention to himself just by catching a touchdown pass? A quick salute to his team's fans after that is just too big a display of grandstanding?..................................................
Rest of story >>>>>>>>>> http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/columns/story?columnist=voepel_mechelle&id=5990327 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/columns/story?columnist=voepel_mechelle&id=5990327)
I discovered yesterday the reason why the unsportmanlike rules where developed so extensively - interesting story.
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Interesting question. (You would LOVE that, wouldn't you)? >:D
Or would Prewitt have to give up his seat?
Similarly, if tradition serves, Randy Edsall has to give up his seat on the Rules committee since he is going to Maryland. He is in the the slot the Big East had originally when Rich Rodriguez got it at West Virginia. So, another Big East coach should take Edsall's slot for his remaining term that ends in fall 2011. Somewhere I have an email from reply from Ty Halpin when I asked this question 3 years ago and that was his explaination as I recall.
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speaking of Rich Rodriguez - he just got canned didn't he ?
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Double standard for celebrations
By Mechelle Voepel
ESPN.com
January 5, 2011
Rest of story >>>>>>>>>> http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/columns/story?columnist=voepel_mechelle&id=5990327 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/columns/story?columnist=voepel_mechelle&id=5990327)
I discovered yesterday the reason why the unsportmanlike rules where developed so extensively - interesting story.
Very interesting story.
Baseball player hits a HR, runs the bases and comes around and jumps with both feet on home plate. Gee, isn't that remarkably similar to high stepping or diving into the end zone, which is a foul in football, but nothing in baseball.
And don't even start on the volleyball and softball celebrations. Or is it that females are expected to celebrate and males aren't?
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No I meant the Florida "Hurricanes" was an interesting story.
Explains the disparity in the NCAA rules over different sports.
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Very interesting story.
Baseball player hits a HR, runs the bases and comes around and jumps with both feet on home plate. Gee, isn't that remarkably similar to high stepping or diving into the end zone, which is a foul in football, but nothing in baseball.
And don't even start on the volleyball and softball celebrations. Or is it that females are expected to celebrate and males aren't?
It is that manly man thing..................... ;D
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Very interesting story.
Baseball player hits a HR, runs the bases and comes around and jumps with both feet on home plate. Gee, isn't that remarkably similar to high stepping or diving into the end zone, which is a foul in football, but nothing in baseball.
And don't even start on the volleyball and softball celebrations. Or is it that females are expected to celebrate and males aren't?
Well let's just let football players celebrate like volleyball players, I'm sure that will go over really well. ;D
Without debating the Pinstripe Bowl call, it's an interesting story but it approaches all sports with the expectation that they are all the same. They obviously are not.
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Very interesting story.
Baseball player hits a HR, runs the bases and comes around and jumps with both feet on home plate. Gee, isn't that remarkably similar to high stepping or diving into the end zone, which is a foul in football, but nothing in baseball.
And don't even start on the volleyball and softball celebrations. Or is it that females are expected to celebrate and males aren't?
One difference might be that in Baseball, volleyball or softball games there's a distinct lack of opposing players smashing into each other, which at times may cause a tendency for aggressive behavior to esacalate beyond intended levels. In as much as smahing into each other might also tend to escalate undesireable emotional reactions, special attention is paid to any behavior that might trigger an unacceptable response from a competitor, and the level of such potential behavior is deliberately set at a much lower tolerance level.
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One difference might be that in Baseball, volleyball or softball games there's a distinct lack of opposing players smashing into each other, which at times may cause a tendency for aggressive behavior to esacalate beyond intended levels. In as much as smahing into each other might also tend to escalate undesireable emotional reactions, special attention is paid to any behavior that might trigger an unacceptable response from a competitor, and the level of such potential behavior is deliberately set at a much lower tolerance level.
Could be, but that doesn't explain why thiongs that are accepted in hockey or lacrosse are USC penalties in football. Players are certainly smashing into each other in those sports as well.
I'm not saying the other sports are right, but football "celebrations" are treated differently.
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Could be, but that doesn't explain why thiongs that are accepted in hockey or lacrosse are USC penalties in football. Players are certainly smashing into each other in those sports as well.
Never shy away from gaining enlightenment ..... what are "thiongs"?
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Normaly a picture would be appropriate here but I will abstain.
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Never shy away from gaining enlightenment ..... what are "thiongs"?
A direct result of fat fingers and lazy proofreading.