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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on January 13, 2011, 06:13:25 AM
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From Rom Gilbert's video site:
[yt=425,350]XzZXTYLvtmY[/yt]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzZXTYLvtmY&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzZXTYLvtmY&feature=player_embedded)
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When the ball is (off the top of my head and late at night):
1. OOB
2. Recovered by K and kneeled.
3. Recovered by K and handed to an official.
4. Recovered by R and he is tackled, goes OOB or scores.
5. Fair catch by R.
6. Ball stopped and no attempt by R to recover the ball and official whistles ball dead.
Any more?
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NCAA 6-3-6
Dead as soon as it is caught or recovered by K.
Dead if simultaneous possession.
Kicks that cross the NZ we're talking about obviously...
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The correct answer may be,
NOT THIS ONE!
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The correct answer may be,
NOT TIHS ONE!
Except - 6. Ball stopped and no attempt by R to recover the ball and official whistles ball dead.
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Another good one on this topic is the last play of the Texas v Texas A&M game. I know we talked about that one too. Ball rolled to a stop, and then time expired.
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I see the ball roll to a stop and then Team B player immediately bends down to make a play on it.
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Does B47 give a waving signal and if yes, does that matter?
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I was hoping that would be ignored for the sake of discussion. But, yes it would matter if the play had been allowed to continue, as play would have to be stopped as soon as B got possession anyway due to the invalid signal.
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Well, then the kick becomes dead when an official blows his whistle; plus, the NCAA rulebook never refers to K or R....just saying
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plus, the NCAA rulebook never refers to K or R....just saying
Just my references that everyone understands for convenience
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If no one is attempting to recover the ball and than the ball is stopped. Would that make the ball dead?
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If no one is attempting to recover the ball and than the ball is stopped. Would that make the ball dead?
Yes. See 4-1-3f.
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At the precise moment it stops?
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At the precise moment it stops?
Going to be the judgement of the covering official of just how long it must be stopped and whether any B players are making an attempt to recover the ball. The rules give no time period. The guy in this play may have been a little fast in killing it, but kill it he did before B made a move to the ball, so I find it hard to knock him about it.
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At the precise moment it stops?
I think what made a difference here is that there were numurous B players that had a chance to pick up the ball while it was still moving and didn't. in essence, they had already shown they were not going to try to advance the ball. So AS SOON AS it came to a stop, the official blew it dead.
It might well have been treated differently if no one were around it, and a B player was racing to get it when it stopped moving. The covering official may not have been as quick with the whistle in that case.
I have no problem with the call on this play.
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true, but if Team A (foolishly) walks away from a punt that's still rolling or has just stopped rolling, then Team B might change their mind about picking it up.
Can't tell from the tape. It's possible that Team A walked away because a whistle had already been blown.
But if they give up on the live ball prematurely, that's their mistake. and if Team B wants to capitalize on it, that's their prerogative.
In general, I think we should be extra careful anytime we see TEAM B gathering around a punt like this. Because it's the opposite of what usually happens on a rolling punt. and it could be a "warning sign" of an unusual return.
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In general, I think we should be extra careful anytime we see TEAM B gathering around a punt like this. Because it's the opposite of what usually happens on a rolling punt. and it could be a "warning sign" of an unusual return.
Exactly! Perhaps they were runniong the old "Kick return is not imminent" play!! ;D And then we could flag B for unsportsmanlike conduct. >:D
I do agree though that since it was B around the ball we should be more circumspect about shutting it down. Maybe Team B is the better coached team and they know if they see A moving away from the ball that they can pick it up and go. Are we going to prevent them from using their smarts?
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I think what made a difference here is that there were numurous B players that had a chance to pick up the ball while it was still moving and didn't. in essence, they had already shown they were not going to try to advance the ball. So AS SOON AS it came to a stop, the official blew it dead.
It might well have been treated differently if no one were around it, and a B player was racing to get it when it stopped moving. The covering official may not have been as quick with the whistle in that case.
I have no problem with the call on this play.
me either.
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Exactly! Perhaps they were runniong the old "Kick return is not imminent" play!! ;D And then we could flag B for unsportsmanlike conduct. >:D
I do agree though that since it was B around the ball we should be more circumspect about shutting it down. Maybe Team B is the better coached team and they know if they see A moving away from the ball that they can pick it up and go. Are we going to prevent them from using their smarts?
Nothing good ever happens during these situations when a scrimmage kick is on the ground and no one is attempting to recover. If no one is making any attempt to pick up the ball, then, the instant it stops, the play should be blown dead. If B wants to recover and advance, then they should do it before the ball comes to rest.
Basically, if the ball comes to rest and a Team B player hasn't already started bending over to pick it up when that happens...it's dead.
Waiting 2 or 3 seconds as noted in Gilbert's note gives way too much time for players to do something bad and is a poor guideline that would lead to inconsistently officiating the play.
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So if we're waiting for 2 or 3 seconds after the ball is stopped, and in that interval you have an A player come flying thru to obliterate one of the standing around the ball guys because he might think about picking it up, what happens then?
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so long as the obliteration is focused above the waist and below the neck, I've got nothing. I'm not a fan of anyone getting obliterated, mind you. But that's one of the things that can happen when a player stands over a live loose ball before the whistle blows.
I know there's no time limit. And I'm certainly not saying that we should stand over an abandoned ball and wait to see if any of the Team B players who are halfway to their bench might come back and pick it up.
But in the posted video, I do think they were quick with the whistle. I can see why they did it, and I wouldn't ding them big time for it. but a team B player did pick the ball up one second after it came to rest. I don't think the spirit of 6-3-7 should translate into Team B being unable to advance a ball 1 second after it comes to rest. Especially if Team A is derelict in their downing duty.
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so long as the obliteration is focused above the waist and below the neck, I've got nothing. I'm not a fan of anyone getting obliterated, mind you. But that's one of the things that can happen when a player stands over a live loose ball before the whistle blows.
I know there's no time limit. And I'm certainly not saying that we should stand over an abandoned ball and wait to see if any of the Team B players who are halfway to their bench might come back and pick it up.
But in the posted video, I do think they were quick with the whistle. I can see why they did it, and I wouldn't ding them big time for it. but a team B player did pick the ball up one second after it came to rest. I don't think the spirit of 6-3-7 should translate into Team B being unable to advance a ball 1 second after it comes to rest. Especially if Team A is derelict in their downing duty.
Every player on the field, including the player who eventually picked up the ball, gave up on this play. Had someone "obliterated" anyone, even just before it comes to rest, it would be a foul at that point.
4 Team B players had the opportunity to pick up the ball well before it came to rest, but they didn't. They stopped playing, as did Team A. It's over as soon as the ball comes to rest.
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If the ball had been loose from a backward pass and became just as motionless with the team b players grouped around it would you say the ball is dead at the moment it stops motion?
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so long as the obliteration is focused above the waist and below the neck, I've got nothing.
Oh, you'd have something alright. Just not a flag for that action which would undoubtably create quite a few other flaggable opportunities.
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If the ball had been loose from a backward pass and became just as motionless with the team b players grouped around it would you say the ball is dead at the moment it stops motion?
Most likely, but this is a quite a stretch and not really relevant to a kick play. If a loose ball is on the ground from a normal scrimmage play, backward pass or QB pass/fumble, everyone would recognize that no official has killed the play and someone will go after the ball because it will belong to whoever recovers. There is simply no way it would ever have the chance to come to rest with Team B players surrounding it and no one trying to recover. On kick plays the receiving team knows they will get the ball if they do nothing, so that's what they are coached to do when it's rolling around...just let it die and it's their ball.
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Just my references that everyone understands for convenience
Yeah..no biggie...I was just being a douche ;D
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Yeah..no biggie...I was just being a douche ;D
No problem
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Every player on the field, including the player who eventually picked up the ball, gave up on this play. Had someone "obliterated" anyone, even just before it comes to rest, it would be a foul at that point.
4 Team B players had the opportunity to pick up the ball well before it came to rest, but they didn't. They stopped playing, as did Team A. It's over as soon as the ball comes to rest.
I dont' think that's accurate. Watch #15 again. As the ball is rolling, he begins walking up to it. He's looking around as he does so. When the last Team A player turns his back, #15 picks it up.
Maybe he knew what he was doing all along. Maybe he didn't. He definitely picked it up one second after it stopped moving. All I'm saying is, for me:
1. I don't think this should've been shut down when it was, with a team B player that close to a ball that was moving less than one second ago; the fact that they weren't running up to field the ball when it was first rolling is irrelevant for me. Maybe it wasn't advantageous for them to do so at the time. Maybe it didn't occur to them right away to do so.
2. If that same player gets blocked by a (hard) shoulder in the chest, I've got no foul: The play hasn't been shut down yet. He's standing right next to a live ball. Why would a block on him be a personal foul? Yeah, if he's one of the guys walking away from the ball, sure. Personal foul for hitting someone who obviously isn't involved in the play.
But if he's allowed to pick up the ball, he's allowed to be blocked. (He's also allowed to make the mistake of muffing the ball; they're all part of the same package until the ball is dead.)
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chymechowder,
This situation is very much akin to a long TD run in which players of both teams are meandering well behind the ball carrier before he crosses the goalline. For all practical purposes the ball is dead to them; hence, we do not allow any live-ball type of hard blocks.
Granted, the difference in the two situations is that the live ball is near to the action in the punt play. But as you can note, players for both teams have turned away from the ball and began to move on to the next play. Just as occurs when the ball carrier is 50 yards ahead of the meandering linemen. Those lineman have turned away from opponents and are moving on to the next play.
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agreed. If someone turns his back on the ball and is walking away and gets drilled --personal foul.
but I'm talking about #15 on this play. he is nothing like the players jogging 30 yards behind a ball carrier. on this play, #15 never turns away from the ball. are you saying if he'd been blocked just before he bent down to pick it up--you'd have a foul on that??
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but I'm talking about #15 on this play. he is nothing like the players jogging 30 yards behind a ball carrier. on this play, #15 never turns away from the ball. are you saying if he'd been blocked just before he bent down to pick it up--you'd have a foul on that??
I deliberately avoided saying this situation is exactly like a long TD run and pointed out the major difference. The two plays are comparable in the sense that the majority of the players have quit playing and the ball is milliseconds from being legally declared dead.
By convention over time, officials have ruled that, if a B player wants to play the ball in this situation, he should not wait for the last second when all other players have quit playing.
Would I flag a block on B15 as he bent down to pick up the ball? Depends on where he was contacted; how much force was applied with the block; how the players had conducted themselves up to that point, and my general state of mind.
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Would I flag a block on B15 as he bent down to pick up the ball? Depends on where he was contacted; how much force was applied with the block; how the players had conducted themselves up to that point, and my general state of mind.
So you're saying that a player who is attempting to gain possession of the ball can potentially be ruled out of the play? That's an interesting concept.
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Most likely, but this is a quite a stretch and not really relevant to a kick play. If a loose ball is on the ground from a normal scrimmage play, backward pass or QB pass/fumble, everyone would recognize that no official has killed the play and someone will go after the ball because it will belong to whoever recovers. There is simply no way it would ever have the chance to come to rest with Team B players surrounding it and no one trying to recover. On kick plays the receiving team knows they will get the ball if they do nothing, so that's what they are coached to do when it's rolling around...just let it die and it's their ball.
did you watch the steelers / ravens game today? ;)
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011011500/2010/POST19/ravens@steelers/watch?module=HP_headlines#tab:watch
(2:10 into the highlights)
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did you watch the steelers / ravens game today? ;)
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011011500/2010/POST19/ravens@steelers/watch?module=HP_headlines#tab:watch
(2:10 into the highlights)
If this is the play you're referring too you can scroll down and you can save the time of the video loading. Click on Redding gets rewarded for being alert
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did you watch the steelers / ravens game today? ;)
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011011500/2010/POST19/ravens@steelers/watch?module=HP_headlines#tab:watch
(2:10 into the highlights)
Yes and #93 never gave up on the play and no one was surrounding the ball just letting it roll dead.
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I have seen the equivalent situation where "No. 15" did wait and pick the ball up and made 20 yards before he was tackled. Communal comment when we got back to the dressing room "Good job we didn't blow that dead".