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Football Officiating => General Discussion => Topic started by: Osric Pureheart on February 05, 2011, 06:39:52 PM
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Couple of situations for you.
4th and 2 on B's 45. A12 runs a quarterback sneak; the wingman comes in selling his spot, which ends up as near to nose on B's 44 as makes no difference. The officials determine that it is short and the ball goes over on downs. Where do we have 1st and 10 from? Do we leave the ball where it was, so it will start tail on new-A's 44? Or does the umpire pick it up, clean it off, and then replace it so that it will be nose on new-A's 44?
As before, except this time it is 4th and goal, and the spot is either nose on B's 1, or middle between B's 1 and the goal line. Leave the ball, or clean it off and put it on new-A's 1?
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Scenario 1 - pick it up clean it off, put it down nose on.
Scenario 2 - when every inch or every foot matters like it does as close to the GL as in this scenario, then be millimetre perfect.
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#1. Pick it up, throw it out, relay a new A ball in and place it with the nose on the 44.
#2. Relay in a new A ball, place it next to the old ball, pick up the old A ball and throw it out.
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#1. Pick it up, throw it out, relay a new A ball in and place it with the nose on the 44.
#2. Relay in a new A ball, place it next to the old ball, pick up the old A ball and throw it out.
Indeed, but Osric is talking football in the UK. Sometimes we are lucky if the two teams have one half decent football between them!
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On the European fields, if you happen to have a yard-line right next to the ball, I'd move the ball nose on that yard line, unless we're inside the 10. I'd be extremely surprised if a) somebody notices and b) complains.
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I seem to be in a rapidly dwindling minority on this topic, but here's my rule:
The ball goes where the ball ended up, and the rear stake goes at the forward point of the ball, yard lines be damned. Period.
The "always spot the ball on the line" philosophy alters the reality of the game for no other purpose than to relieve us of the minor inconvenience of having to measure slightly more frequently. The benefit does not justify the alteration, even at midfield.
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#1. Pick it up, throw it out, relay a new A ball in and place it with the nose on the 44.
A what-iffy.
Same down and distance - 4/2 @ B-45. After the play, the ball is spotted short of the B-43. The crew measures and the front stake lands directly at the back edge of the B-43. Team A's coach takes notice. Per above, the new ball from the Team B is spotted with its nose on the B-43. The Team A's coach takes notice again and wants a first down or another measurement at the least.
I say don't create trouble. Place the new ball from the Team B at the same spot, i.e. with its butt on the B-43, and move the chains.
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I've got to dissent here. Progress is the nose of the ball, therefore on turn over on downs the ball should always be reversed so that the position of the nose remains the same. Outside the 5 generally if this means reverse and move to go nose on do so. Inside the 5, or after a measurement it needs to be flipped exactly so new ball nose to nose with old ball.
W_T_F I think you're overselling the poverty of British football a bit, it's a long time since I didn't at least get three balls, if not the ball boys.
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I've got to dissent here. Progress is the nose of the ball, therefore on turn over on downs the ball should always be reversed so that the position of the nose remains the same. Outside the 5 generally if this means reverse and move to go nose on do so. Inside the 5, or after a measurement it needs to be flipped exactly so new ball nose to nose with old ball.
W_T_F I think you're overselling the poverty of British football a bit, it's a long time since I didn't at least get three balls, if not the ball boys.
Why would you flip it? Imagine that both Team A and B has a "nose" of the same ball. Team A's nose is toward one goalline and team B's nose is on the opposite side.
In your scenario of flipping the ball it could turn into tight situation near the goalline as mentioned in the OP. Team A runs a play on 4th and Goal and is judged to be tackled just 1 inch from the goalline. You gonna flip it? I would think not because you are now placing the part of the ball in the end zone. This could be a similar argument from a coach as Diablo pointed out.
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Why would you flip it? Imagine that both Team A and B has a "nose" of the same ball. Team A's nose is toward one goal line and team B's nose is on the opposite side.
In your scenario of flipping the ball it could turn into tight situation near the goal line as mentioned in the OP. Team A runs a play on 4th and Goal and is judged to be tackled just 1 inch from the goal line. You gonna flip it? I would think not because you are now placing the part of the ball in the end zone. This could be a similar argument from a coach as Diablo pointed out.
We measure progress from the front of the ball, to me that is a point not a zone 1 foot deep. I would never place the ball 1 inch from the goal line, I would not want to pretend I could be that accurate, short is half and half or worse.
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This is an age-old argument. The CCA attempted to put an end to it by addressing it in their Manual: the ball is returned the exact location and orientation as the previous down. The box is move to the opposite end of the ball (from its previous location), and the chains are repositioned accordingly.
In the event that B takes over on downs after 4 consecutive incomplete passes, B will have 1/10, B-19-2/3(minus a little bit). The back end of the ball would be on the A-19 edge of the A-20 yard line. Subtract the length of the ball (some 11 1/4"), and that's the new succeeding spot.
Who would know if you just put the ball on the 21 side of the 20? Those of us having this discussion. The teams wouldn't give a rat's bohunkus.
But, if you want to do it right...there you go.