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Football Officiating => General Discussion => Topic started by: the_inexperience_of_youth on February 13, 2011, 02:36:24 PM
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Hi all, I'm a newbie here so please be kind ;D...
I was working LJ today in my second ever game and the coach on my sideline is known to be a bit of a loud mouth... First half he is adamant that one of his players was horse-collared (he wasn't) and spends a couple of minute grumbling away about how we're putting his players in danger and how he's going to send the game film to my association. He wasn't doing it in my face so I pretty much just ignored him...
Second half and one of his players gets cut-blocked completely legally. Again he grumbles away "I'm going to report you to the association... You're jeopardising my players' safety... yadda yadda yadda". Then as he's walking away, he says (quite loudly I may add) "That was a BS call" (well he didn't say "BS" but if I type what he actually said, it'll probably get swear filtered). I wasn't sure if it was actually directed at me so I kept my flag in my pocket but now that I've though about it, I'm pretty certain I should have slapped a USC on him regardless.
Basically my question is; would you have flagged the guy in the situation explained? How much chat do you usually let slide from a coach?
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Every official has a different level of verbal complaints / "assaults" they can take. Having restraint like you did shows that you are in control and not agrivated. The coach may have just been trying to get into your head so you would "give" him a call. Never stoop to the level of the coach and respond in the same manner as he does. Remain calm and in control of yourself. The real answer to your situation is difficult to answer because we would have to be there to see how we would react. Since you didn't throw a flag, then I'd say he didn't cross the line that you have to draw for yourself. In some situations that perhaps you did miss a call, you can apologize to the coach that you missed it. It's quite difficult for a coach to argue with an official who agrees with him.
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What level of play are we talking about?
At the high school level where I work, the "BS" comment, since said loudly for all of his team, some opponets, and probably some fans to hear, would draw a flag from me. I'd just ignore the rest of the grumbling - typical coach.
At the high school level (14-18 years old), in my mind, when a coach uses R-rated language to critique my judgement or competency in a volume that can be heard by others, my flag flies. If he talks to you in a voice that only you can hear, address it man-to-man. The less you say, the better. If a coach or player accuses me of being dishonest or cheating, the flag flies.
One response I have to a coach who has a major beef with a call I made is, "Coach, if the film shows it (the play) the way you describe, then I missed it." Who can argue with that?
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One response I have to a coach who has a major beef with a call I made is, "Coach, if the film shows it (the play) the way you describe, then I missed it." Who can argue with that?
If he still keeps on and on after that, "COACH THAT IS ENOUGH". Usually does the trick.
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I'm a big fan of the "Coach, that's enough" comment.
Puts the ball in his court instead of yours. If he chooses to continue denigrating your professionalism after that, then the flag on the ground is his fault, not yours.
One area where I don't give any quarter is when his comments insinuate that me or my crew has been "bought off" or lack integrity. A coach that asks "how much is the other team paying you?" gets a USC flag with no warning. I had one assistant who drew a flag for this and then immediately followed up with an F-bomb directed at me. Hope he had some good CDs in the car in the parking lot, because that's where spent the rest of the game.
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If he still keeps on and on after that, "COACH THAT IS ENOUGH". Usually does the trick.
Take RickWts' advice literally. Don't ever make those "If I hear X ONE more time..." kind of comments.
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Exactly, you should never tell a player or a coach " if you do that one more time". If it is bad enough to flag "one more time" it is bad enough to flag now........
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Under NFHS rules, there is no distinction as to who the profanity was directed at. If it's at you, the opposing players, the weather, or even Lady Luck, profanity gets flagged. Whether or not they're talking to you when they say it is irrelevant. In my case my hearing is not what it used to be, so if I can hear it, then it's guaranteed that it was loud enough for a flag. I was working a 7-man game (between Catholic private schools, natch) where there was a double-turnover on one play. As the second turnover is being advanced, a coach on my sideline yells out, "I don't f***ing BELIEVE that!!" to nobody in general. The Side Judge dropped a flag at his feet and the coach was all confused. He didn't even remember using the f-bomb. It's still a flag though because it was definitely loud enough to be heard all over the field.
If they're moaning about a play that happened a couple of plays ago, I usually tell them, "Let it go, Coach. That play's over." If they ever start complaining about having to play against TWO teams that game, or otherwise imply that your impartiality might be suspect, that's an immediate flag with NO warnings. My first year I had a JV coach doing that all game and his players started believing him. By the end of the game they had given up trying because he convinced them they couldn't win. When I brought it up afterwards, all the veterans asked me why I didn't flag it. I said "because he didn't use profanity". They set me straight.
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What level of play are we talking about?
At the high school level where I work, the "BS" comment, since said loudly for all of his team, some opponets, and probably some fans to hear, would draw a flag from me. I'd just ignore the rest of the grumbling - typical coach.
At the high school level (14-18 years old), in my mind, when a coach uses R-rated language to critique my judgement or competency in a volume that can be heard by others, my flag flies. If he talks to you in a voice that only you can hear, address it man-to-man. The less you say, the better. If a coach or player accuses me of being dishonest or cheating, the flag flies.
One response I have to a coach who has a major beef with a call I made is, "Coach, if the film shows it (the play) the way you describe, then I missed it." Who can argue with that?
This was a college game here in the UK if it makes any difference...
I completely agree that if he had actively accused me of cheating then the flag would have been straight out. I'm pretty thick skinned as a person anyways so I let his comments slide, my problem is that by not penalising him, I'm setting a dangerous precedent that if another official flags him next week, or whenever, for doing it (which they're fully within their rights to do) then we as officials will appear inconsistent.
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It's your second game, chill out. I always say that in order to get any good at making a particular call or dealing with a particular situation, you have to do it before you're quite ready and make a balls of it - that's experience. The trick is getting it right the next time - a mistake is only a true mistake when it's repeated.
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Re: Rickwts comment. I like it. A hockey official once told me about a partner who told the coach "If I even hear you breath you're getting a penalty" Sure enough as the official skates away there is a loud sigh from the bench. Penalty logged into the penalty sheet was "breathing" !!!!
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Take RickWts' advice literally. Don't ever make those "If I hear X ONE more time..." kind of comments.
Especially "Coach, I don't want to hear another word." Then, you've really backed yourself into a corner - even if he says "OK", either you've lost credibility, or you're getting a complaint about flagging somebody for saying something completely innocent.
"Coach, that's enough" works very well on not only the football field, but the baseball and softball field, too, as I discovered years ago...
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Oh, and Mr. "Inexperienced", welcome to the site. There's a lot of things I've picked up here that have helped a lot, taking advantage of the collective experience of everyone here.
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If his comments are getting to the point of your thinking about them and loseing concentration on what you need to be doing then hes getting close to the line, my normal response to something like youve described is "sorry what was that coach" if he repeats it he gets the flag just for being that stupid, if he doesnt he suddenly knows that hes getting close to drawing the flag and that tends to put them on the defensive and shuts them up. It helps in setting boundaries with coaches, let them know yes ill enjoy a certain amount of banter, more than that then there in trouble.
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my problem is that by not penalising him, I'm setting a dangerous precedent that if another official flags him next week, or whenever, for doing it (which they're fully within their rights to do) then we as officials will appear inconsistent.
Thank you for being concerned about, "next week", but understand and accept you have no control, or responsibility, for any next week. Hopefully we each get better every game we work, so what may have happened last week, or anywhere else, doesn't count today.
"They allowed that last week" is on the same level as "the dog ate my homework". We each get to draw our own line as to what may be acceptable commentary and what is not. That is really the only "consistency" we each are responsible for. All of the above suggestions are successful when they're presented so the target believes you mean them.
You might also want to develop "the look", that is the look your mother or father gave you, that froze you and left no doubt that whatever you were doing (or saying) needs to stop immediately.
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That's a goot tip. I'm working on it right now with my 2 year old... Not perfect yet, but getting there. I'll see how it works on the field this year!
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A rule of thumb I learned in baseball...it may have been the late Ron Luciano- anything prefaced or followed by the word "you" gets the heave-ho. ^flag
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I am not sure how many wingmen have a quick chat with their coach before the game, but I am strongly in favor of it. It is usually less than a minute and goes something like...
Hello Coach <insert name>, I'm T.C. Welton and I will be the official on your side of the field. If you have any questions during the course of the game we will get them answered for you and we will give you numbers after a penalty. Help me out on the sidelines so I can focus on the game and not the sideline. I will always treat you with respect, lets keep it professional and have a great football game.
I agree with two of the comments in particular on this thread. "Coach, that's enough" almost always helps settle them down. Secondly, if they get personal directed at me or in a load manner, the flag has been thrown by him in my opinion.
On the other side of the token, I believe in good communication with the coach. Often they have legitimate questions as to what happened or what is going on with a particular situation. I believe in giving an answer if approached appropriately. I will put up with almost any amount of yelling until it becomes a distraction from my duties or gets personal. Too often I have seen coaches with legitimate questions getting ignored by officials. If the play is imminent, just say Coach, I will be happy to explain after this play. Working with the coach goes a very long way to establishing a positive relationship and credibility.
As you go up in the levels, you will get fewer coaches who don't know the rules and more who know when they are about to go over the boundary. The two combined lends itself to a more "official friendly" atmosphere.
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Our coaches almost always want a long explanation after every play because they think they saw this or saw that and if a flag is on the ground they always want a detailed description of what happened. We don't have time to do this after every play or flag and it is not our job to do this. This just disrupts the flow of the game and buys extra time for the coach.
Then when you receive your evaluation of the game you will hear that you did not communicate with the coach because he didn't give him a detailed description of what happened after every play or every time he wanted one.
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As a linesman, my workload between downs is a bit more than the other wings. When the coach wants an answer and it's relatively quick to answer, I'll give it to him, but if he's asking why that flag went against his team on the far side of the field, there's no way I can answer that before the next snap. The best I can give him is an, "I'll try and get an answer for you after this play, coach." We always try and relay numbers to the sidelines and once I was even chewed out for giving it to the coach when he didn't want it. In those cases I just make a note of it and don't relay any more numbers for that game.
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Our wings do the same. However that is never good enough for the coach so he is yelling at the Referee for a more detailed explanation.
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Our wings do the same. However that is never good enough for the coach so he is yelling at the Referee for a more detailed explanation.
If your suggestion that, "It's NEVER good enough" is accurate, rather than a frustrated generalization, it would indicate that your approach is simply not working and you should consider changing it. The above suggestion from T.C. Welton is spot on. Setting a cooperative tone before the game and establishing that you are willing to be of assistance when possible cannot hurt and often will set a better tone for most coaches. If not, you've tried to set a correct tone and the failure to do so is that coach's responsibility.
I can't tell you whether you should loosen up or tighten up, but it sounds like what you are doing simply isn't working. There are basic approaches to dealing with hostile people (in any circumstance) you might research. Perhaps it's your delivery, perhaps it's your body language. On the other hand, there is no proper way to placate someone who insists on being an idiot (ranting and raving on a football field requires idiocy). When that is who you are dealing with you need to be able to deal with him, usually the quicker the better. As Patrick Swazy suggested in the movie "Roadhouse", "You need to be nice, until it's time not to be nice".
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TC approach is exactly what we instruct on wings to do and it is never enough. Also my wings do exatly what Patrick said.
It is not me personally because I am not a wing guy and haven't been for years. I work Umpire or Referee.
I was simply trying to get a feel for what other regions and officials do. This year I am going to address it in my pre-game meeting with the coaches and I will remind then that we are not required to explain what happened every play or give them a number but rather a good gesture on our part and that my crew will be willing to do whatever we can to get this information to him as soon as possible. However if he wants a detailed explanation we simply can't do that. If he feels we made an error in the application of a rule to call for a coach referee timeout to discuss. ^talk :!# :!#
Maybe we should start a rotation where we go to different regions to officiate games.
That sort of approach works during playoffs. ^talk
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If the coach is indicating we did something wrong in applying a rule, the first question out of my mouth is, "Coach, do you want a coach/referee conference?" That usually quiets them down, but sometimes they do take it. The question has a double-benefit of silencing a coach who only THINKS a problem occurred and providing time for a coach who KNOWS a problem occurred to get the error resolved.
The majority of communication from the coaches on my sideline would not fall under that category, however, as the majority is usually of the "why didn't you see/call that (fill in the Foul of the Day here)?! That kind of question is NOT directed at a misapplication of the rules.
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Good points Fadamor.
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The majority of communication from the coaches on my sideline would not fall under that category, however, as the majority is usually of the "why didn't you see/call that (fill in the Foul of the Day here)?! That kind of question is NOT directed at a misapplication of the rules.
When a coach respectfully asks, "why didn't you see/call that" I've found simply asking , "what did you see" when he answers there is really only two responses possible, "No, I didn't see that" or "Yes, I saw that but don't think it was a foul".
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One thing I try and focus on when I white hat (JV and middle school games only) is making sure I don't get in that zone where I'm chatting just with my Umpire and leaving my wings out of the loop.
I insist on numbers for every foul and make sure they get relayed to my wings. Since a lot of time my wings are first or second year guys, I try and make sure they understand what's happening with fouls so that they can communicate it to their coaches. During time outs, if I need to explain something that happened earlier to them, or just think it's a learning opportunity, I'll wave them in for a second to explain. I'm usually pretty laid back about coming to the sideline to explain something that's a little out of the ordinary, but I won't let it become a habit. The problem with an R explaining something to one sideline without them burning a time-out is that you're pretty well obligated to hustle to the other side so the other coach won't feel left out, and then you've slowed the pace of the game down dramatically.
Finally, when I announce penalties I always announce them loudly enough that the sideline (and those in the stands with good ears) can hear. To wit, something like. "During the play; holding on the offense. Penalty is 10 yards from the spot of the foul; repeat first down." That usually lets the coach know what's happening on at least the home sideline, and it lets my LJ (who may be calling one of his first games) figure out what's happening too. Plus some day should I ever have a game big enough for me to be mic'ed, I won't be unprepared.
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Verbalizing even when you have no mike is great training for when you do, and a lot of people can also hear you without a mike, so no reason not to do it.
Just thinking about your announcement of that hold there. You gotta post the play here, if you ever call a dead-ball hold. ;)
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Finally, when I announce penalties I always announce them loudly enough that the sideline (and those in the stands with good ears) can hear. To wit, something like. "During the play; holding on the offense. Penalty is 10 yards from the spot of the foul; repeat first down." That usually lets the coach know what's happening on at least the home sideline, and it lets my LJ (who may be calling one of his first games) figure out what's happening too. Plus some day should I ever have a game big enough for me to be mic'ed, I won't be unprepared.
Sounds like a good attitude and sensible planning. You likely will work important games where you're mic'ed and the effort your expending and habits your forming will pay huge dividends.
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Verbalizing even when you have no mike is great training for when you do, and a lot of people can also hear you without a mike, so no reason not to do it.
Just thinking about your announcement of that hold there. You gotta post the play here, if you ever call a dead-ball hold. ;)
Do people not say the information out loud when not mic'ed?
I learned that you should always do it. Saying it out loud gives you the opportunity to ensure that you are enforcing it correctly, and at least some of the other officials should be able to hear it and verify your action or correct you if there was an error. They can then relay the information to their sidelines if the coaches cannot hear it.
I've been mic'ed a couple of times in games, and in those situations I also announced the information in my preliminary signal (with the mic off) so that the crew could hear and correct me if I made a mistake before I turned the mic on for the world to hear it.
When I started at R, I was trained to always announce live ball or dead ball, the foul, the penalty and from where it is being assessed, and then what the situation will be when the ball is next put in play. So while there will never be a dead ball holding penalty, and that part of the announcement may be unnecessary, I think it is a good idea to do it to be consistent.
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"During the play" is sometimes not important or useful to know; but "during the run" or "before the pass" or "while the ball was loose" often is.
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"During the play" is sometimes not important or useful to know; but "during the run" or "before the pass" or "while the ball was loose" often is.
Good guidelines. Generally, don't need to say "during the play," but occassionally, it can be helpful. Might have two fouls during the play, and a DB foul after the play. Then, it would be helpful to announce, "There were two fouls during the play - offiside, #92, defense; holding, # 55 offense. Those fouls offset. After the play, personal foul, #77 defense. That's a 15 yard penalty and an automatic first down." But, for a single live-ball foul, shouldn't need it.
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Is a Personal Foul an automatic first down?
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Is a Personal Foul an automatic first down?
NCAA rules, yes it is.
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Gotcha - that's what I figured. Thanks.
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I learned that you should always do it. Saying it out loud gives you the opportunity to ensure that you are enforcing it correctly, and at least some of the other officials should be able to hear it and verify your action or correct you if there was an error. They can then relay the information to their sidelines if the coaches cannot hear it.
I've been mic'ed a couple of times in games, and in those situations I also announced the information in my preliminary signal (with the mic off) so that the crew could hear and correct me if I made a mistake before I turned the mic on for the world to hear it.
When I started at R, I was trained to always announce live ball or dead ball, the foul, the penalty and from where it is being assessed, and then what the situation will be when the ball is next put in play. So while there will never be a dead ball holding penalty, and that part of the announcement may be unnecessary, I think it is a good idea to do it to be consistent.
That's what I've been taught as well, though I have yet to work even a AAA game, much less a game where I'd be miked. If I say it out loud, somebody on the crew can stop me when I say something stupid.
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Latest issue of Referee magazine (March 11) has an interesting article on page 11 regarding an assistant Ref in a D-I soccer game in Ohio walking off because the Referee wouldn't support him and sanction an abusive coach.
Was he justified in his action or over reacting ?
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I don't know what the respective rules in that particular Soccer match provide, but it doesn't seem that it would EVER be appropriate for a official to walk away from a contest over ANY dispute with another official. I don't know if an "assistant referee" has the authority to directly discipline an unruly coach. If given that authority he should simply utilize it without involving the Referee, if not and the rules place that authority exclusively in the hands of the referee, then the other officials must bow to the referee's judgment in this regard.
Allowing a disagreement between officials to reach a level where one leaves the field, or would be sent from the field seems totally unacceptable, under any circumstances. Should a dispute reach that level of disagreement, it should be settled away frm the contest, after the contest with the governing body of the officials organization.
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I assume soccer is like rugby. The ref has total say and is only 'advised' by the assistants (for instance if someone was offside, they raise a flag, but the ref decides if he will shut down the play).
Appart from that, I disagree with Al.
We don't know how abusive or threatening the coach was. If I reported it to get him tossed and there was no action taken, and I felt threatened - yes I would leave. I will look after my safety before I look after anything else on the field. If there was nothing I could do directly, and the referee did not support me.. Yes, I would consider leaving.
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I'm a REFEREE mag subscriber too and I read that Soccer story with interest myself.
In the past, Soccer was definitely a Referee with two linesmen who only made minor decisions - possession on an out of bounds ball, offside, etc. My understanding of the way Soccer works nowadays at the higher levels (such as that game) is a crew concept just like we have in Football. Indeed FIFA changed the name from linesman to assistant referee to mirror the chance in philosophy whereby the assistant can flag for a foul. At the very top levels (such as the English Premier league), the Referee and assistants have radio communication and are able to talk to each other the whole game.
If I work a Football game and my Head Linesman flags a coach, then I am not in a position to overrule him. I wasnt there, I dont know exactly what happened so I have to trust my fellow crew member. If he tells me the coach has to go, then he goes - I have to trust my crew.
Clearly we dont know the full story, but you have to stick together as a crew. It is permissable as a crew chief to ask "Are you sure?" but if a crew member sticks with it, then you have to go with it.
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Any time someone gets tossed <cough> er... disqualified here, it has to be included in the report by the referee to the Association Commissioner along with exactly what was said/done to cause the disqualification. This is true whether coaches or players were disqualified. As such, the referee has to have a good understanding of what went on and therefore can't just rely on trusting the wing's decision.
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The extent of reporting, and the detail required, of a disqualification is a purely local matter, and may vary considerably. Although it is expected that the Referee would normally have, or have been given, “a good understanding of what went on” it is not his function to either second, or overrule, another official’s decision to disqualify either a player, or a coach.
Aside from a second USC foul, where disqualification is automatic, a single disqualifying incident would be of a flagrant nature, or an accumulation of repetitive negative behavior that reached a flagrant level. The judgment of the calling official is the usual deciding factor.
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Strictly from my personal opinion, I WANT to be questioned when I tell my WH that I've got a disqualifying foul. Here in Virginia, when a person disqualifies themselves from further participation in a game, they also have to sit at least the following game. Two games if it's for a fighting disqualification. Before I tell a player or coach that he's gone for that long, I want another person who's not involved in the heat of the incident to confirm that I'm making the right decision.
The version of this that I'm NOT a fan of, though, is when a player does something and the ejection's not enforced when it's clearly deserved. I was working BJ in a game last year in a blowout, and one of the wide receivers for the team getting crashed came up from a tackle with a two-handed shot to the face of the guy who tackled him. Blatant shot, no way it was any sort of "football action". The R (who I really respect as an official) signaled the foul, but then went to the coach and said "you can sit him the rest of the game, or we can eject him." If it was a borderline situation, I've got no problem with "saving the player" (as we call it around here), but not for a flagrant action like that. Kid's got to learn that losing his cool is going to cost him, IMHO.
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Hi all, I'm a newbie here so please be kind ;D...
I was working LJ today in my second ever game and the coach on my sideline is known to be a bit of a loud mouth... First half he is adamant that one of his players was horse-collared (he wasn't) and spends a couple of minute grumbling away about how we're putting his players in danger and how he's going to send the game film to my association. He wasn't doing it in my face so I pretty much just ignored him...
Second half and one of his players gets cut-blocked completely legally. Again he grumbles away "I'm going to report you to the association... You're jeopardising my players' safety... yadda yadda yadda". Then as he's walking away, he says (quite loudly I may add) "That was a BS call" (well he didn't say "BS" but if I type what he actually said, it'll probably get swear filtered). I wasn't sure if it was actually directed at me so I kept my flag in my pocket but now that I've though about it, I'm pretty certain I should have slapped a USC on him regardless.
Basically my question is; would you have flagged the guy in the situation explained? How much chat do you usually let slide from a coach?
I know I'm jumping in late here, so this may have already been another person's take.
To me, it all depends on how loud he's chirping. If just he and I can hear it, I'll chirp back.
BUT if he's degrading me & a fellow official loud enough to where his players and/or the stands can hear it.
I dont understand he saying, "that was a BS call" - nothing was called.
Nevertheless, loud ranting/raving obviously directed at you, the crew or alleged poor calls "showing you up", in my opinion, are flagged quickly.
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Coming in late on this discussion.
I don't get it for those that want to keep the flag in the pocket and think this is controlling a situation? Just what part of the game was this a positive part for the official and at what point did it make a negative impact on the officiating fraternity?
Any one of the players being surrounded by the coach could be a potential official in future but to allow a coach to carry on like that outside the normal behaviour of sportsmanship and humanity is stooping to his level as it it. Throwing a flag on poor sportsmanship takes guts and to allow crowd control procedures to interfere with the mental health of an official can lead to a life time of trouble for a fellow official as being seen to be weak and vulnerable. We as leaders must stand up and teach the younger generation where the line is being crossed so that we can ensure we have young blood following behind us, otherwise why would they join up?
Throw the flag will teach him the boundary not to step past and ensure your mental well being for the future when he stands on your sideline next time. Making comments that are ill founded by your judgement and that of your crew members must be flagged or you risk not having new members in the near future.
Let the ranting and raving happen in Pro sports but anything lower than that needs a firm hand.
Anyhow I agree 1 to tell the coach he needs to stop making comments and then if he continues to flag it, but if bad enough the first time then flag it right away.
GM
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That's a goot tip. I'm working on it right now with my 2 year old... Not perfect yet, but getting there. I'll see how it works on the field this year!
REPLY: Since many coaches act like two-year olds, it might just work.
Also, as a general rule when dealing with coaches: Answer questions, but don't answer statements. "That was the worst call I've ever seen" should not be answered with your rationale for making the call, or argue with the coach over his statement. Best to let that just go in one ear and out the other.
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In baseball I was taught anything prefaced or appended by the word "you" got the heave-ho.
Much of how much you take is based on he level of play you are officiating- the things I've heard college coaches say to a wing official in one game would get a youth coach run out of the league, maybe for good. In our state, the guiding principle given to us from above is that athletics is an extension of the classroom and thus if you wouldn't say it in school, you really shouldn't say it on the sidelines. Now we aren't prudes by any means so some minor swearing is usually tolerated as long as its not excessive or extremely vulgar. If it is directed at an opponent or personally to an official, then the flag should be thrown.
The boss should usually get more leeway than the help. I do not mind talking to assistants and will answer their questions as long as they don't become argumentative or excessively whiny or get in the way.
If you kicked a call or maybe, might of, sort of kicked the call, you need to realize that you're going to have to take your medicine for a moment or so.