RefStripes.com

Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: RickKY on March 22, 2011, 01:14:39 PM

Title: Penalty Options?
Post by: RickKY on March 22, 2011, 01:14:39 PM

A1 is rolling toward the sideline with the ball intending to pass.  As A1 is in his passing motion he is grasped by the back collar by B1.  The ball flies OOB and incomplete as A1 is pulled to the ground by a horse collar tackle.

Is this RTP or HC foul?  RTP carries auto first down with it.

Title: Re: Penalty Options?
Post by: hoochycoochy on March 22, 2011, 02:19:13 PM

It's not RTP.  RTP applies when a hit is made "after it's clear the ball has been thrown". 

Title: Re: Penalty Options?
Post by: RickKY on March 22, 2011, 02:31:08 PM

The rule also says that roughing the passer is "charging into".  That would eliminate tackling, pushing, hand slap to the helmet, and other actions form being roughing as well.  It's quite obvious that horse collar tackles are rough by the 15 yard penalty that it brings.  If we have a rough penalty on the passer in the act of passing, why would it not be called RTP?  Other fouls that fall into this category would include major face mask.

Title: Re: Penalty Options?
Post by: Atlanta Blue on March 22, 2011, 03:42:31 PM

All of the things you described (tackling, pushing, hand slap to the helmet) can be interpreted as a form of "charging into".  What can't be rectified is that RTP can only occur AFTER the pass has clearly been thrown.  There can be no such thing as roughing a potential passer, or one in the act of passing.

Obviously, there can still be a personal foul of a potential or current passer, just as you have described.  But it's not RTP.

Title: Re: Penalty Options?
Post by: cougar729 on March 22, 2011, 04:12:48 PM

By definition 2-32-11: A passer is a player who throws a legal forward pass. 

So we can not have roughing the passer until someone throws a legal forward pass.

Title: Re: Penalty Options?
Post by: bama_stripes on March 23, 2011, 07:49:10 AM

Quote from: cougar729 on March 22, 2011, 04:12:48 PM

By definition 2-32-11: A passer is a player who throws a legal forward pass. 

So we can not have roughing the passer until someone throws a legal forward pass.

In addition, a HC foul must be against a runner.  Until the QB releases the ball for a pass, that's what he is.

Title: Re: Penalty Options?
Post by: RickKY on March 23, 2011, 10:03:43 AM

More details....

Defender grasps the back collar and shoulder pads of the QB while in the act of throwing the pass, still in possession of the ball.  After the pass is thrown, the defender pulls the passer to the ground using the horse collar.  Enforcement?

Title: Re: Penalty Options?
Post by: Mike L on March 23, 2011, 10:20:00 AM

Quote from: RickKY on March 23, 2011, 10:03:43 AM

More details....

Defender grasps the back collar and shoulder pads of the QB while in the act of throwing the pass, still in possession of the ball.  After the pass is thrown, the defender pulls the passer to the ground using the horse collar.  Enforcement?

Depends on the timing. If the pull starts before or as the ball is released, I have a HC. If the pull clearly starts after the release (ie discernable delay) then I have RTP.

Title: Re: Penalty Options?
Post by: hoochycoochy on March 23, 2011, 10:40:11 AM

Quote from: RickKY on March 23, 2011, 10:03:43 AM

More details....

Defender grasps the back collar and shoulder pads of the QB while in the act of throwing the pass, still in possession of the ball.  After the pass is thrown, the defender pulls the passer to the ground using the horse collar.  Enforcement?

For me to call RTP it would have to be clear to me that the defender clearly knew the pass had been thrown.