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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: rickref on September 14, 2011, 10:36:55 AM
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Team A 1st and goal from 8. Team A does a reverse and player 88 with the ball is all alone at the 3 when he puts the ball up in the air and yells "Hell ya baby!" Action was not directed at any player, stands, coaches, etc.
Leave alone.
Flag and take TD away?
Thoughts?
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Leave alone.
Not directed toward opponent, no harm no foul.
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I wouldn't flag it, but I might tell him to knock it off, it could be considered an problem.
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youthful exuberance ^good
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I would not even talk to him at the college level. Even the HS level I would probably not say anything either.
Peace
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Leave alone.
Not directed toward opponent, no harm no foul.
How does this differ significantly from the examples given in the 2011 CFO memo on the new USC foul enforcement? At least two of the examples were not "directed toward opponent" but were still identified as live ball USC's. Is this significantly different than if this same player dived into the EZ from the 2 yard line?
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in our chapter, the phrase being used to describe USC actions are not "directed toward an opponent," rather unnecessarily "bringing attention to oneself." Therefore the play above would warrant a flag. Anyone else been taught this philosophy?
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in our chapter, the phrase being used to describe USC actions are not "directed toward an opponent," rather unnecessarily "bringing attention to oneself." ....
That's probably due to the actual guidance in the 2011-2012 Statement on Sportsmanship that uses the words " .... players who inappropriately draw attention to themselves ....".
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Uh guys...did you notice the word INAPPROPRIATELY ? ? ? Heck whenever a guy busts a great play he is "drawing attention to himself" but that is not a foul. Sticking a finger up in the air would not be a foul if he did immediately following a score nor should it be if he does as he runs the last few yards to the end zone.
Reminder of what Dr Redding has said on this in the past:
Understanding Unsportsmanlike Conduct by Rogers Redding
Given the national attention that continues to roil around player behavior and unsportsmanlike conduct, it might be helpful for me to share some thoughts as we go forward.
Calling or not calling these fouls places our officials in a difficult situation; it is the nature of the business to be criticized, and it seems especially true when we try to apply 9-2-1. These are judgment calls, as are all the decisions officials make during the action of the game.
As officials apply their judgment, perhaps these guidelines will be helpful:
• Remember that the game is one of high emotion, played by gifted teenagers who are affirmed by playing a game at which they are exceptionally talented.
• Do not be overly technical in applying this rule.
• Do allow for brief spontaneous emotional reactions at the end of a play.
• Beyond the brief, spontaneous bursts of energy, officials should flag those acts that are clearly prolonged, self-congratulatory, and making a mockery of the game.
A list of specifically prohibited acts is in (a) thru (h) on FR-122,123; this list is intended to be illustrative and not exhaustive. We can all agree that these acts are clearly intended to taunt or demean, and they should not be allowed—not only because they are written in the book, but because they offend our sense of how the game should be played.
We now have enough experience with this rule to know what “feels” right and wrong. Note that most if not all of these fall outside the category of brief, spontaneous outbursts. Rather, they present themselves as taunting, self-glorification, demeaning to opponents, or showing disrespect to the opponents and the game.
When such a situation arises, I encourage officials to wait a count, take a deep breath, and assess what they feel about what they have seen.
If it feels OK, let it go.
If it feels wrong, flag it.
It will never be possible to be totally specific in writing what should and should not be allowed. But we trust our officials to be men of good judgment who know in their hearts what should and should not be allowed in the heat of an emotional game.
Rogers Redding
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Uh Mike .... Did you read your posting. Dr Redding has been 100% consistent and has it directly in the post above in that the allowable celebration is at the END OF THE PLAY. Those actions in the field of play have been consistently unacceptable.
While we can agree that the level of pre-TD exuberance and the form that it take is always a judgment call, the guidance has repeatedly said that pre-TD celebrations cross the line. It also fits right in with the referenced AR's listed, again with a judgment call required based on the level of actions taken.
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This is the bottom line:
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"But we trust our officials to be men of good judgment who know in their hearts what should and should not be allowed in the heat of an emotional game."
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Apparently not all are of "good judgment".
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not a flag. not even a talk to. this is nothing and I honestly don't know why anyone would even consider flagging it.
he's not being a jerk. he's not taunting. he's not showboating or making a mockery of the game.
he's scoring a touchdown with his arm in the air. and yelling "Yeah."
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But it's not that his arm is in the air - it's that he is waving the ball in the air - could be seen as a 'I've got the ball and you can't catch me' gesture.
I am going against what other say and only go so far as to say that I need to see the gesture to make my descion.
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Put me in the "talk to buddy" category.
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No flag from me.
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But it's not that his arm is in the air - it's that he is waving the ball in the air - could be seen as a 'I've got the ball and you can't catch me' gesture.
I am going against what other say and only go so far as to say that I need to see the gesture to make my descion.
I hear you. but "could be seen as a [taunting] gesture" should equal no flag, right?
I mean for physical fouls, isn't one of our guiding principles that if you only think you might have a flag, then you don't really have one?
this should apply even more so to potential celebration/unsportsmanlike flags! but it seems that some are arguing for the opposite. like if there's any way anyone in the stadium, the city, or the surrounding metro area could possibly interpret this player's actions as unsportsmanlike, then we should flag it. and if it turns out the guy wasn't taunting? well too bad for him. not my fault. he could've avoided the flag if he hand't put HIS FINGER IN THE AIR!
???
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I'm still waiting for somebody to explain to me why this action (ball in the air) is different from the runner diving into the end zone unopposed. Neither is directed at an opponent and both are extra actions designed to celebrate the score (and I wouldn't want to flag either, but sounds like I should flag only the latter).
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"If it feels OK, let it go.
If it feels wrong, flag it."
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"If it feels OK, let it go.
If it feels wrong, flag it."
Flowerchild Mike, if it feels good, do it? Far to subjective, no?
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Them ain't my words pardner!
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We talk about it and then it happens...video of the play that started the thread
http://video.yahoo.com/yahoosportsbloggers-25772688/more-25772707/chatham-at-hackettstown-26635958.html;_ylt=AsyX1nAmYDYFqvhLm6kaP3eRGkAv;_ylu=X3oDMTNpOWkzNTM4BG1pdANWaWRlbyBTZWFyY2ggUmVzdWx0cyBOZXR3b3JrIEF3YXJlBHBrZwMyNjYzNTk1OARwb3MDMQRzZWMDTWVkaWFTZWFyY2hSZXN1bHRzQ2Fyb3VzZWxEaXNjb3ZlcnlOZXR3b3JrQXdhcmUEdmVyAw--;_ylg=X3oDMTFrM25vcXFyBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnMEdGVzdAM-;_ylv=3#crsl=%252Fyahoosportsbloggers-25772688%252Fmore-25772707%252Fchatham-at-hackettstown-26635958.html (http://video.yahoo.com/yahoosportsbloggers-25772688/more-25772707/chatham-at-hackettstown-26635958.html;_ylt=AsyX1nAmYDYFqvhLm6kaP3eRGkAv;_ylu=X3oDMTNpOWkzNTM4BG1pdANWaWRlbyBTZWFyY2ggUmVzdWx0cyBOZXR3b3JrIEF3YXJlBHBrZwMyNjYzNTk1OARwb3MDMQRzZWMDTWVkaWFTZWFyY2hSZXN1bHRzQ2Fyb3VzZWxEaXNjb3ZlcnlOZXR3b3JrQXdhcmUEdmVyAw--;_ylg=X3oDMTFrM25vcXFyBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnMEdGVzdAM-;_ylv=3#crsl=%252Fyahoosportsbloggers-25772688%252Fmore-25772707%252Fchatham-at-hackettstown-26635958.html)
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How about this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpJaN30IUdA
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nope
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How about this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpJaN30IUdA
Don't like the flag. Don't like how it was thrown.
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How about this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpJaN30IUdA
I have nothing on this play.
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We talk about it and then it happens...video of the play that started the thread
http://video.yahoo.com/yahoosportsbloggers-25772688/more-25772707/chatham-at-hackettstown-26635958.html;_ylt=AsyX1nAmYDYFqvhLm6kaP3eRGkAv;_ylu=X3oDMTNpOWkzNTM4BG1pdANWaWRlbyBTZWFyY2ggUmVzdWx0cyBOZXR3b3JrIEF3YXJlBHBrZwMyNjYzNTk1OARwb3MDMQRzZWMDTWVkaWFTZWFyY2hSZXN1bHRzQ2Fyb3VzZWxEaXNjb3ZlcnlOZXR3b3JrQXdhcmUEdmVyAw--;_ylg=X3oDMTFrM25vcXFyBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnMEdGVzdAM-;_ylv=3#crsl=%252Fyahoosportsbloggers-25772688%252Fmore-25772707%252Fchatham-at-hackettstown-26635958.html (http://video.yahoo.com/yahoosportsbloggers-25772688/more-25772707/chatham-at-hackettstown-26635958.html;_ylt=AsyX1nAmYDYFqvhLm6kaP3eRGkAv;_ylu=X3oDMTNpOWkzNTM4BG1pdANWaWRlbyBTZWFyY2ggUmVzdWx0cyBOZXR3b3JrIEF3YXJlBHBrZwMyNjYzNTk1OARwb3MDMQRzZWMDTWVkaWFTZWFyY2hSZXN1bHRzQ2Fyb3VzZWxEaXNjb3ZlcnlOZXR3b3JrQXdhcmUEdmVyAw--;_ylg=X3oDMTFrM25vcXFyBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnMEdGVzdAM-;_ylv=3#crsl=%252Fyahoosportsbloggers-25772688%252Fmore-25772707%252Fchatham-at-hackettstown-26635958.html)
I have nothing on this one either.
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Nothing on either play, not even close!