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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on September 25, 2011, 06:53:41 AM

Title: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: TXMike on September 25, 2011, 06:53:41 AM
The story includes video of the play

http://blog.syracuse.com/orangefootball/2011/09/syracuse_vs_toledo_video_did_r.html (http://blog.syracuse.com/orangefootball/2011/09/syracuse_vs_toledo_video_did_r.html)
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: BankerRef on September 25, 2011, 08:31:48 AM
Oh boy!
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Atlanta Blue on September 25, 2011, 08:32:47 AM
Wow.  They butchered that call twice!  And it's not that tough a call.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Curious on September 25, 2011, 08:48:35 AM
Unbelievable....

Do NCAA rules provide for any corrective remedy (other than suspending the official on that post and/or the replay guy)?
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: zebra99 on September 25, 2011, 09:55:17 AM
Unbelievable....

Do NCAA rules provide for any corrective remedy (other than suspending the official on that post and/or the replay guy)?

The NCAA has no authority over conference officials.  That authority rests with the Big East in this case.

Tell me, what possible good would suspensions accomplish other that to give a pound of flesh to some so called "fans" and of course appease some media who think they should rule the world?  Don't you think the involved feel bad enough?  We could always hold a public whipping?  That would guarantee perfect officiating, don't you think?

Suspensions do absolutely nothing to advance officiating other than to have us constantly look over our shoulders worrying that our next call may lead to the embarrassment of a suspension.  Remember, this is an avocation  - not our fulltime job.  How would you like to be subject to being suspended from your avocation?   The pay is not equal to the responsibility and certainly not to the level that justifies suspensions.

If little Johnny answers the simple 2 plus 2 math test question incorrectly, do we suspend him from class the next week?


Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Diablo on September 25, 2011, 10:26:11 AM
Wow.  They butchered that call twice!  And it's not that tough a call.

Wasn't there a similar incident a couple/3 years ago in a college game?  Maybe a ACC game?
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: mbyron on September 25, 2011, 10:42:07 AM
I was wondering whether they might "fix" this the way they "fixed" the outcome of that game out in California... :D
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Curious on September 25, 2011, 10:52:37 AM
The NCAA has no authority over conference officials.  That authority rests with the Big East in this case.

Tell me, what possible good would suspensions accomplish other that to give a pound of flesh to some so called "fans" and of course appease some media who think they should rule the world?  Don't you think the involved feel bad enough?  We could always hold a public whipping?  That would guarantee perfect officiating, don't you think?

Suspensions do absolutely nothing to advance officiating other than to have us constantly look over our shoulders worrying that our next call may lead to the embarrassment of a suspension.  Remember, this is an avocation  - not our fulltime job.  How would you like to be subject to being suspended from your avocation?   The pay is not equal to the responsibility and certainly not to the level that justifies suspensions.

If little Johnny answers the simple 2 plus 2 math test question incorrectly, do we suspend him from class the next week?

I'm NOT advocating for suspensions; just asking what remedies might be available for such an egregious error (shades of the 5th down debacles) - for which suspensions WERE forthcoming.  The eye-in-the-sky (every play being subject to replay) is already "looking over our shoulders".   

So, back to my original question: "What remedy for the TEAMS, if any, is available under NCAA rules (applied, as zebra99 points out, would have to come from the conferences?
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: zebra99 on September 25, 2011, 11:25:20 AM
I was wondering whether they might "fix" this the way they "fixed" the outcome of that game out in California... :D

The outcome of the game in California was not "fixed" - that conference simply clarified the actual final score which was incorrectly reported by the press box and the media.  Never blindly beleive what you see reported in the media - their agenda is different from ours.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: mbyron on September 25, 2011, 11:33:48 AM
The outcome of the game in California was not "fixed" - that conference simply clarified the actual final score which was incorrectly reported by the press box and the media.  Never blindly beleive what you see reported in the media - their agenda is different from ours.
Thank you. I think I understand what happened. I used scare quotes around "fixed" to indicate that I was using the word ironically.

Irony is difficult to convey adequately on the interwebs. :(
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Osric Pureheart on September 25, 2011, 12:19:09 PM
Wasn't there a similar incident a couple/3 years ago in a college game?  Maybe a ACC game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO0P9CsUibM

IIRC the explanation for this was that the B didn't see properly because he was dodging the ball and then waved it no good without looking for help.  Replay buzzed in and overturned it; again IIRC it wasn't specifically reviewable at the time and then became so as a result of this play.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: TXMike on September 25, 2011, 12:46:57 PM
Wasn't there a similar incident a couple/3 years ago in a college game?  Maybe a ACC game?

http://www.news-record.com/content/2007/09/18/article/virginia_field_goal_clears_rule_book
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: TXMike on September 25, 2011, 12:48:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO0P9CsUibM

IIRC the explanation for this was that the B didn't see properly because he was dodging the ball and then waved it no good without looking for help.  Replay buzzed in and overturned it; again IIRC it wasn't specifically reviewable at the time and then became so as a result of this play.

>>And the IR official was.....?
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Curious on September 25, 2011, 09:25:49 PM
http://www.news-record.com/content/2007/09/18/article/virginia_field_goal_clears_rule_book

Looks like adequate precedent to me!
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Atlanta Blue on September 25, 2011, 11:02:44 PM
>>And the IR official was.....?

Well, he wasn't listed in the official game report, so I can't find it.

Who was it?
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: mbyron on September 26, 2011, 07:01:33 AM
Well, he wasn't listed in the official game report, so I can't find it.

Who was it?
I think it was bigjohn.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: RickKY on September 26, 2011, 07:03:33 AM
I was watching this on TV when this play occured.  I remember thinking when they announced the review, that there is no way an official got this call wrong.  Afterall, the ball was only half way up the post, so it had to be in or out, and either is easy to determine.   All I can say is officials need to concentrate on every play.

Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: zebra99 on September 26, 2011, 10:19:26 AM

Irony is difficult to convey adequately on the interwebs. :(

agree  :) P_S ;) tiphat: LOL :o FlAg1 aWaRd >:D :-X pHiNzuP ^flag :o eAt& deadhorse:
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: TXMike on September 26, 2011, 12:07:12 PM
Oh my, it gets worse..now Toledo wants the game result overturned

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/toledo-complains-about-extra-point-wrongly-awarded-to-syracuse-in-its-ot-win-over-rockets/2011/09/26/gIQAbZ7wyK_story.html
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: NoVaBJ on September 26, 2011, 12:24:48 PM
Tell me, what possible good would suspensions accomplish other that to give a pound of flesh to some so called "fans" and of course appease some media who think they should rule the world?  Don't you think the involved feel bad enough?  We could always hold a public whipping?  That would guarantee perfect officiating, don't you think?

Suspensions do absolutely nothing to advance officiating other than to have us constantly look over our shoulders worrying that our next call may lead to the embarrassment of a suspension.  Remember, this is an avocation  - not our fulltime job.  How would you like to be subject to being suspended from your avocation?   The pay is not equal to the responsibility and certainly not to the level that justifies suspensions.

If little Johnny answers the simple 2 plus 2 math test question incorrectly, do we suspend him from class the next week?

I'm sorry, but this lapse of concentration is so profound and striking at such a high level that a suspension is warranted.  At least, the B and Replay here need some motivation.  Quite likely, they need to be replaced by one of scores of us who won't lose concentration.

A judgment call is one thing, but this miss was awful, inexcusable, and deserves consequences.  If I botched something this bad, I would expect to sit.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: TXMike on September 26, 2011, 12:36:02 PM
I'd like to hear their version of events first.  A physical mistake, i.e. not seeing exactly right at game speed is a lot different than a mental mistake, i.e. botching an enforcement.  A replay guy who can slow things down and look at many different angles should get less "slack."  But, in both cases, I'd like to know all teh facts before stringing them up from the closest tree
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: RickKY on September 26, 2011, 12:42:17 PM
Watching the video again it appears the official under the left upright is in the proper position, if maybe even slightly outside the upright, and looking up as the ball passes by the upright.  I can only guess that he anticipated it would be successful and called it that way. 
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: zebra99 on September 26, 2011, 12:49:32 PM
I'm sorry, but this lapse of concentration is so profound and striking at such a high level that a suspension is warranted.  At least, the B and Replay here need some motivation.  Quite likely, they need to be replaced by one of scores of us who won't lose concentration.

A judgment call is one thing, but this miss was awful, inexcusable, and deserves consequences.  If I botched something this bad, I would expect to sit.

But let's not hang them before we know their side of the story - sort of basic due process, don't you think?   FlAg1
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: JasonTX on September 26, 2011, 01:57:47 PM
The B looks very young.  He don't look a day past 18.  Could inexperience play a role here? 
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: InsideTheStripes on September 26, 2011, 02:12:01 PM
The B looks very young.  He don't look a day past 18.  Could inexperience play a role here?

You're right... he looks like a boy. 

Good on him for being hired into a BCS conference at such a young age.

I don't see how inexperience would play a role on this one.  He wasn't out of position.  He didn't appear to have a lapse of judgment.  He obviously thought he saw something that he didn't actually see.

I hope it doesn't derail his officiating career too badly.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: TXMike on September 26, 2011, 02:51:35 PM
And now the MAC says (correctly)...what's done is done

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/26/no-recourse-to-reverse-outcome-of-toledo-syracuse-game/
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: cincybearcat on September 26, 2011, 03:18:28 PM
Oh my, it gets worse..now Toledo wants the game result overturned

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/toledo-complains-about-extra-point-wrongly-awarded-to-syracuse-in-its-ot-win-over-rockets/2011/09/26/gIQAbZ7wyK_story.html

You stay classy Toledo
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: cincybearcat on September 26, 2011, 03:26:04 PM
Mark me in the camp that thinks suspensions serve no purpose, if an official doesn't have the ability to officiate at the level that he is at, he/she should be let go.  Although I wouldn't doubt that a suspension would happen here, if for no other reason than a head being served on a platter to the wonderful world of sports media.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: TXMike on September 26, 2011, 03:50:11 PM
Late-20's/early-30's. His 1st year in the Big East and at least 5 years previous experience in NCAA football.  Was this the B or the F's call?
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: JasonTX on September 26, 2011, 08:31:27 PM
Late-20's/early-30's. His 1st year in the Big East and at least 5 years previous experience in NCAA football.  Was this the B or the F's call?

I was thinking it was the B, just based upon him standing next to the R during the review.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Wing4Life on September 26, 2011, 09:32:06 PM
Guys, I know the R, LJ, and BJ well. It was the FJ's call. The BJ was under the other goalpost. Also, the BJ, although he looks young, has several years of collegiate experience and just moved from C-USA to the Big East this year. Either way, it was not his goalpost so a discussion on his youthful look, experience/inexperience is pointless. As for the FJ, he's also a well experienced official.

Although I don't work for the Big East, I am a D1 official. I can speak from experience, and, as most of you can probably relate. . .you can be working the best game of your life, and in the blink of an eye, miss something detrimental. It comes with the advocation.

I'm sure that crew sincerely appreciates the support of their brethren in stripes. Thanks.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: JasonTX on September 26, 2011, 09:43:40 PM
Guys, I know the R, LJ, and BJ well. It was the FJ's call. The BJ was under the other goalpost. Also, the BJ, although he looks young, has several years of collegiate experience and just moved from C-USA to the Big East this year. Either way, it was not his goalpost so a discussion on his youthful look, experience/inexperience is pointless. As for the FJ, he's also a well experienced official.

Although I don't work for the Big East, I am a D1 official. I can speak from experience, and, as most of you can probably relate. . .you can be working the best game of your life, and in the blink of an eye, miss something detrimental. It comes with the advocation.

I'm sure that crew sincerely appreciates the support of their brethren in stripes. Thanks.

I think that is why most here are not being too critical of the on field official.  I think the replay official is the one in the most hot water.  Having been under a post before in both high school and college, as most here have as well, when a kick is that close to the post I can easliy see how a blink of an eye can cause you to miss it.  You get several looks at replay so "blinking an eye" can not be used as a reason to miss it upstairs.  My reason for speaking of the youthful look of the B, was more aimed at the fact that a lot of officials are put into this level when they may not be ready.  The pressure can get to them at times.  As pointed out, that would not be the case here being that he has several years at this level.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Atlanta Blue on September 27, 2011, 07:19:37 AM
Sorry, but if you are going to take the big assignments with your games on TV, you have to expect criticism.  I don't think anyone's criticism has been unfair.  "The Long Blue Line" doesn't and shouldn't exist, if an official makes a critical error, then fairly criticizing him for it is not out of line.

This was a severe lack of concentration at a critical point.  Whether you want to call it a suspension, or simply losing some assignments, having his games cut back is not out of the question, and probably deserved.

Yes, replay should have bailed him out, and the replay official (who apparently focused on the sideline view) deserves an even bigger "punishment".
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Diablo on September 27, 2011, 10:46:59 AM

Yes, replay should have bailed him out, and the replay official (who apparently focused on the sideline view) deserves an even bigger "punishment".


What sort of sideline view does replay get?  is the camera usually close to the endline, goalline, or what?
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: TXMike on September 27, 2011, 11:35:55 AM
Guys, I know the R, LJ, and BJ well. It was the FJ's call. The BJ was under the other goalpost. Also, the BJ, although he looks young, has several years of collegiate experience and just moved from C-USA to the Big East this year. Either way, it was not his goalpost so a discussion on his youthful look, experience/inexperience is pointless. As for the FJ, he's also a well experienced official.

Although I don't work for the Big East, I am a D1 official. I can speak from experience, and, as most of you can probably relate. . .you can be working the best game of your life, and in the blink of an eye, miss something detrimental. It comes with the advocation.

I'm sure that crew sincerely appreciates the support of their brethren in stripes. Thanks.
  i think the majority wants to wait to hear all the facts before making any critical comments.  Was there something the on-field official  can offer that can help others from repeating the mistake?  That is what is important.  And I believe that is even more important than "supporting" the calling official.  But, as usually is the case, I doubt we will ever know what led to the miss.  Sometimes it is a chain of events and the chain can be studied to help any of us prevent a repeat performance. 
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: bama_stripes on September 27, 2011, 12:32:56 PM
Was there something the on-field official  can offer that can help others from repeating the mistake?  That is what is important. 

Well put, Mike.  I don't think anyone here revels in a brother official's mistake.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Diablo on September 27, 2011, 01:31:22 PM
Was there something the on-field official  can offer that can help others from repeating the mistake?  That is what is important.  And I believe that is even more important than "supporting" the calling official. 

Spot On, Mate.
On the surface, this particular determination is one of the easiest calls during a game.  There is zero movement by the calling officials.  The players are bunched together as opposed to spread out over the lot.  The live-ball action is very short and produces minimal distraction.  Yet the call has very significant impact to the game - points on/off the scoreboard.

I'm hoping we can learn how/why the F & RO ruled incorrectly.  If so, it will appear in BOLD type in my pregame.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: zebra99 on September 27, 2011, 06:25:54 PM
Sorry, but if you are going to take the big assignments with your games on TV, you have to expect criticism.  I don't think anyone's criticism has been unfair.  "The Long Blue Line" doesn't and shouldn't exist, if an official makes a critical error, then fairly criticizing him for it is not out of line.

This was a severe lack of concentration at a critical point.  Whether you want to call it a suspension, or simply losing some assignments, having his games cut back is not out of the question, and probably deserved.

Yes, replay should have bailed him out, and the replay official (who apparently focused on the sideline view) deserves an even bigger "punishment".

gotta disagree with you Atlanta on this one.  To suggest "This was a severe lack of concentration at a critical point" is reaching that conclusion only from the outcome or result, something that I submit goes too far on this type of play.  I can assure you I have missed big calls yet was concentrating as much as humanly possible.  It's simply the nature of our avocation.   

Don't know if you have experience under an upright but it's not as easy as it appears.  Those kicks come at you very fast and following the exact flight of the ball can be very difficult - looking up into lights or the sun can instantaneously blind you.

Now is it a miss?  of course.  Is it, as you say, worthy  of  " ... a suspension, or simply losing some assignments, having his games cut back is not out of the question, and probably deserved." - absolutely not unless there is a pattern, or as has been said before, if there's a need to feed the media and the losing team.

If this occurs in a nothing game in the first quarter, would you be arguing for a suspension?  No - because you would not have heard about it.

Let's not let game circumstances control the disciplinary action.  The "mistake" by the official is exactly the same no matter when and under what circumstances it occurs.

As to the IR folks - I have no experience in the booth so have no basis to comment one way or the other.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Atlanta Blue on September 27, 2011, 08:25:03 PM
gotta disagree with you Atlanta on this one.  To suggest "This was a severe lack of concentration at a critical point" is reaching that conclusion only from the outcome or result, something that I submit goes too far on this type of play.  I can assure you I have missed big calls yet was concentrating as much as humanly possible.  It's simply the nature of our avocation.

I am not suggesting that calls can’t be missed while still concentrating.  But those are calls that require you to process and make judgments that depend on your training and experience.  Deciding if a ball went to the left or right of a post requires no such training.  Yes, it’s still “judgment”. But not judgment based on your vast experience and knowledge. 

Quote
Don't know if you have experience under an upright but it's not as easy as it appears.  Those kicks come at you very fast and following the exact flight of the ball can be very difficult - looking up into lights or the sun can instantaneously blind you.

I coach kickers, and have done so on both the high school and college levels.  I am under the uprights virtually every day during the football season, and would willing to bet I have watched more kicks from that vantage point than most officials.  I can easily watch 50-60 kicks A DAY from that vantage point.  It’s not that tough, and I would expect any official at this level to do it with 100% accuracy.  If the ball is OVER the post, yes, that's a tougher call, but this one was well below the top of the uprights. 

And if you get under the upright and don’t check where the sun or lights are BEFORE the ball arrives, shame on you, that’s not preparing yourself for the play.

And this was a game in a dome!

Quote
Now is it a miss?  of course.  Is it, as you say, worthy  of  " ... a suspension, or simply losing some assignments, having his games cut back is not out of the question, and probably deserved." - absolutely not unless there is a pattern, or as has been said before, if there's a need to feed the media and the losing team.

I still think it deserves it.  It was a major miss of a simple call.  Allowing it to go “unpunished” condones the outcome.

And yes, at this level, public relations has a lot to do with it.  Whether it should or not is debatable, but it does.

A number of years ago (pre-replay), an SEC crew missed a call by allowing a fumble to stand when the runner was clearly down.  The call caused Georgia not to be able to try a winning field goal against Georgia Tech in the closing seconds.  The crew lost the bowl game they would have gotten.  Had the call happened in the first quarter of a Georgia – New Mexico State game, would they have lost their bowl game.  I’m doubting it, but the situation led to the “suspension”.

Same thing occurred in another SEC game just last year.  Official called a USC penalty in the last minute of the game.  Call had a significant effect on the outcome (note in both cases I NEVER said the call “cost the team the game”, but they had a significant effect).  Rogers Redding himself sat the official down for a week.  Had the call come in the first quarter of that Georgia-New Mexico State game, would he have been suspended?  I highly doubt it.

Like it or not, the situation DOES play a role in the discipline.

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If this occurs in a nothing game in the first quarter, would you be arguing for a suspension?  No - because you would not have heard about it.

If I knew about it I would, but you are correct, I probably wouldn’t know about it.

Quote
Let's not let game circumstances control the disciplinary action.

Sorry, it does.  See the PR comment above.

Quote
  The "mistake" by the official is exactly the same no matter when and under what circumstances it occurs.

True, we agree here.

Quote
As to the IR folks - I have no experience in the booth so have no basis to comment one way or the other.

I have been in the replay booth for numerous games in two conferences.  The Big East uses the same system with which I have had experience (DV Sport).  Unless there was a major technical breakdown, the end zone view was available to the replay official at his request.  Why he would have focused on the sideline view, I can’t even begin to imagine.  Short of the technical breakdown possibility, I can’t come up with any scenario where the RO couldn’t be said to have made a major error.

Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: zebra99 on September 27, 2011, 08:40:10 PM
Well, Blue - no sense trying to change your mind about punishing this official for not meeting your 100% correct standard.  But I submit, it's a hell of lot different, even on this type of play, to be a coach during practice without any responsbility for making this important call.  And, as a coach do you stand right under one upright?  I'll be you're back farther and in the middle.

Anyway, by your statements I guess you're assuming this official goes unpunished?  If so, you are dead wrong.  It's the severity of the punishment that is being debated.  Trust me, there are consequences for both the on field and IR officials.

And, I guess I do have to say something about your "shame on you" comment if they didn't check the sun or lights.  First, why the rhetoric?  Second, are you our ultimate judge?  Third, having worked that position, checking the lights and sun is good but it doesn't prevent them interfering with your vision because you're locked into looking up with a specific angle.  Fourth, the domes I've worked in have lights which are often worse than outdoors.

Yes, this was a major miss.  So we will have to agree to disagree on the nature of the "punishment", that's all.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: ljudge on September 27, 2011, 08:56:41 PM
Guys, I know the R, LJ, and BJ well. It was the FJ's call. The BJ was under the other goalpost. Also, the BJ, although he looks young, has several years of collegiate experience and just moved from C-USA to the Big East this year. Either way, it was not his goalpost so a discussion on his youthful look, experience/inexperience is pointless. As for the FJ, he's also a well experienced official.

Although I don't work for the Big East, I am a D1 official. I can speak from experience, and, as most of you can probably relate. . .you can be working the best game of your life, and in the blink of an eye, miss something detrimental. It comes with the advocation.

I'm sure that crew sincerely appreciates the support of their brethren in stripes. Thanks.

Good message, Wing!  I can say I've had the privilege of working with you and the B (from this game) in my first five years in NCAA and you both are two very fine collegiate officials.  I was surprised at some of the guesses and/or assumptions about age, experience, who made the call, what the supervisor should do, etc. in this post.  Let's leave the criticism in the hands of the media (they do it all to well) and use videos and situations to learn from and get better from these unfortunate situations.  We should definitely discuss situations such as this and try to put ourselves in the shoes of those officials and think of how we may do it differently.  We can use that knowledge and learn from it ourselves so it never happens to us.

I'm looking forward to seeing the B working Sundays in stripes.  He's gonna get there and be there a very long time.  I wish the FJ and the replay official well.  The sign of a great official is what he does in response to something like this.  I'm confident both will rebound and serve their conference well.  Keep your heads up boys!
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Atlanta Blue on September 27, 2011, 09:14:51 PM
Well, Blue - no sense trying to change your mind about punishing this official for not meeting your 100% correct standard.  But I submit, it's a hell of lot different, even on this type of play, to be a coach during practice without any responsbility for making this important call.

I absolutely agree with you!  That's not even a debatable question.  But my point was, I have seen this angle thousands of times, sometimes hundreds of times in a week.  I agree, never during the heat of a D1 game, but it is still a simple call, not a complicated one that puts your training, knowledge and experience to use.  DPI or not?  Holding or not?  Block below the waist (with whatever restrictions have been added this year)?  Those are calls that require your considerable expertise.  Did a ball go left or right of a post?  Sorry, all of your training, knowlege or experience isn't needed for that one.

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And, as a coach do you stand right under one upright?  I'll be you're back farther and in the middle.

Depends on the drill, the kicker, and whether I have help that day from a manager or other coach.  I've done plenty of both. Today.

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Anyway, by your statements I guess you're assuming this official goes unpunished?  If so, you are dead wrong.  It's the severity of the punishment that is being debated.  Trust me, there are consequences for both the on field and IR officials.

I know there are, but if they aren't made public, then the public feels they are unpunished, and it further erodes the trust and respect for officials.  The public feels the poor performance is accepted.

Suspensions of players or coaches are made public, why not officials?

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And, I guess I do have to say something about your "shame on you" comment if they didn't check the sun or lights.  First, why the rhetoric?

Because there are people here making excuses, saying we don't know the whole story, that we should give him the benefit of the doubt.  I don't buy it.  This is D1 college football.  It's a show, a major public event.  And here are a pair of officials that made a bad mistake on a simple play at a critical point.  If the lights were the issue, then that becomes lack of preparation. 

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Second, are you our ultimate judge?

Not directly, no.  But the public that is paying for tickets and making contributions and supporting sponsors deserve an accounting.

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Third, having worked that position, checking the lights and sun is good but it doesn't prevent them interfering with your vision because you're locked into looking up with a specific angle.  Fourth, the domes I've worked in have lights which are often worse than outdoors.

I'm sure some do.  When I had a HS game in the Georgia Dome last week, I was thankful that through my position with the NFL that I had access to take my kicker down to the Dome to work out a few days ahead of time.  I came back reminding our coaches that punt and kick returners needed to be sure to get extra kicks during pregame to get used to the Dome ceiling and lights.

But while both of these COULD have been contributing factors for the FJ, they offer no support for the RO, who bears an even greater responsibility here in my eyes.

But since I'm not your ultimate judge, I guess that doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: zebra99 on September 27, 2011, 09:38:06 PM
"I know there are, but if they aren't made public, then the public feels they are unpunished, and it further erodes the trust and respect for officials.  The public feels the poor performance is accepted.

Suspensions of players or coaches are made public, why not officials?"

Because there is a fundamental difference between officials and players/coaches too extensive to go into here.  I've heard this argument for decades (oops, revealing my age again!).  There is no public right to be told of disciplinary actions.  Schools, just like corporations with respect to their employees, aren't required by law to disclose discipline of players or coaches, they choose to do it because of media pressure.  Same for conferences with respect to their officials - it's a choice made one way or the other for a variety of reasons.

I submit there is no real public good to drag officials through the muck when they make mistakes other than to appease those who get their kicks over anothers misery. 

The media, no matter how hard they try, do not control the world unless we allow them.

Again, we will agree to disagree on what the "public" deserves.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: 110 on September 29, 2011, 06:08:13 AM
I'm gonna stir the pot here, with a mechanics query, and in typical fashion, flavoured with a touch of maple leaf.

Up here, the R calls converts and field goals inside 15. The side officials has kicker/holder protection.

Might I suggest that it's easier for the R to call it, as he is better able to follow the ball and in this case, would have seen the ball cross *before* the post, exactly as the video commentators declare?

As for suspensions, etc., shouldn't the video replay guy get roasted?
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Osric Pureheart on September 29, 2011, 06:35:18 AM
On t'other hand, if the ball goes over the top of the post he's completely screwed unless he can get right behind the flight of the ball with very little reaction time, no?
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: zebra99 on September 29, 2011, 10:15:49 AM
I'm gonna stir the pot here, with a mechanics query, and in typical fashion, flavoured with a touch of maple leaf.

Up here, the R calls converts and field goals inside 15. The side officials has kicker/holder protection.

Might I suggest that it's easier for the R to call it, as he is better able to follow the ball and in this case, would have seen the ball cross *before* the post, exactly as the video commentators declare?

As for suspensions, etc., shouldn't the video replay guy get roasted?

that's what I love about discussing mechanics!  Different strokes for different folks.  We all think "our" favorite mechanics are the only way to go, turns out others work just as well.
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Razor on September 29, 2011, 09:24:26 PM
This is a quote from the Syracuse newspaper.

"Our review of the process determined that the replay official mistakenly focused his attention on the sideline angle, which proved to be distorted. We are confident that our officiating staff will learn from this situation in order to prevent a reoccurrence."
Title: Re: Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win
Post by: Kalle on September 30, 2011, 02:20:44 AM
This is a quote from the Syracuse newspaper.

"Our review of the process determined that the replay official mistakenly focused his attention on the sideline angle, which proved to be distorted. We are confident that our officiating staff will learn from this situation in order to prevent a reoccurrence."

Good, this is exactly what the conference should have focused on. Finding out why the call was blown and making sure that the same mistake won't be repeated. Any punishment on the officials involved is secondary.