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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: TXMike on October 17, 2011, 05:37:31 AM
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There is not any dispute (I hope) about whether there is a foul here. The issue for discussion is how do we catch this with a 5 man crew?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySs3mWS4-NA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySs3mWS4-NA)
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Back Judge has to catch this in this play.
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Only way I can see it getting called is BJ. BJ must take a more "big Picture" approach.
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no doubt that it has to be BJ.
What about a 4 man crew or a 3 man? Good luck... pray:;
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That has to be the B's get. There's not much chance we'd get that in 3 or 4 unless one of the wings catches it in his peripheral vision.
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I can see how it was missed due to strength of the formation and the B's initial key being to the receiver on the top of the screen. (the BBW was from the Right)
But soon after, linemen block down, & maybe he focused on the ball instead of a "chaser".
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I would say the BJ should catch this, then the LJ. That particular block should be caught by both the BJ and LJ.
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no press coverage, run in the middle of the line, maybe it's just me, block occuring about the same time that the runners forward progress is being stopped. I don't think I would be watching what the WR did 10 yards downfield in that situation from either wing position..
if you "think" you saw it in your periphery... did you see it?
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Gents, ask yourself the question: did this affect the play?
Is it possible the BU/BJ or anyone else, for that matter, took a pass on this for that reason?
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Gents, ask yourself the question: did this affect the play?
Is it possible the BU/BJ or anyone else, for that matter, took a pass on this for that reason?
If they passed then one of the two saw the block. Maybe they did not see the entire play, but if they passed I sure hope they got a message to the player and the sideline that was an illegal block. In our case the next time they run that play the RB breaks the line of scrimmage and that block really matters.
Our BJ and wings communicate to each other when we see something like this that we may or may not see the entire block.
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You don't deliberately "pass" on safety fouls.
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Gents, ask yourself the question: did this affect the play?
That is irrelevant in regard to personal fouls. If they passed on it for that reason, they shouldn't have.
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I had this same type of play on Friday night except the blocker came from the opposite side. Same play up the middle like this one. I was working BJ and I picked up the block and flagged it. The player doing the blocking was NOT my initial key as I was on the Tight End. Once I saw him cleared and he was not a threat I picked up the player coming across the middle the same as this player did. I think we have to pick up the players with "the brick". Nothing much on this play that the BJ would be watching so I think he should, as I did, pick up this block.
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^flag
Ideally, the vast majority of 7-man officiating crews should, no doubt, be able to nail this call; a 5-man crew, conversely, could be a little less effective in doing so.
The crew that had this game is, without question, a knowledgeable and well-respected crew. Let's just say that if they missed it, then there's about a 95% probability that other astute 5-man crews might miss it also. Let's just use it to live and learn by to help better ourselves on the finer points of 5-man officiating mechanics. z^
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You don't deliberately "pass" on safety fouls.
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Agreed!
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I agree BJ has got to have the widest picture possible and best to catch it for 5 man.
Now if more yds gained the Wing may be able to notice/pick up with wide out to his side. ^flag
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So Mike, you asked a question but never gave your opinion. What do you think? Who should have caught this?
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Back judge
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As a B, I feel I have to make this call. The ones that get me are plays away from this type of block. I am watching restricted players who may block low in front of the runner and then this guy cuts the corner trying to take an angle across the field just outside my field of vision. Wing guys need to be aware of this as well. Tough to do in 5 man. ???
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Yep those are tough. Sometimes I think we might be better off if we were outside the hashes and looking in at an angle. It would give us a wider field of view although there are some definite drawbacks.
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I would assume that, like others have mentioned, the B would have this call, and I agree that whether or not the foul affected the play, it was a safety concern which should get called.
On a slightly different subject-but being an umpire, I notice these things- The U seems to be lined up awfully close to the line of scrimmage on this play. Not saying that the play from the original post would be his call, and even if he was lined up deeper, he would not have been able to see that action, but I do think from that close in, he would miss a lot of what he should see. Not to mention putting himself in position to either get rolled or hit from behind as the LB is pursuing the action. It almost looks like he impedes the LB from getting to the play where he is positioned.
Is that a normal positioning for crews in that area? I could see if it was 4th qtr and the Offense was going to take a knee, so that he could get into mixed colors quickly to stop the cheap stuff from happening, but this play occurred in the 1st qtr. Why be up so close?
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I tell my wings that if they see their receiver going toward the ball, I would rather them miss a holding call than miss that BBW or crack. I would hope that my LJ has the first flag and it gets covered by B.
I also tell them that if the play breaks, there is no way that we can tell where the blocker comes from unless we are so focused on a single player that we let the rest of the game go.
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On a slightly different subject-but being an umpire, I notice these things- The U seems to be lined up awfully close to the line of scrimmage on this play. Not saying that the play from the original post would be his call, and even if he was lined up deeper, he would not have been able to see that action, but I do think from that close in, he would miss a lot of what he should see. Not to mention putting himself in position to either get rolled or hit from behind as the LB is pursuing the action. It almost looks like he impedes the LB from getting to the play where he is positioned.
Is that a normal positioning for crews in that area? I could see if it was 4th qtr and the Offense was going to take a knee, so that he could get into mixed colors quickly to stop the cheap stuff from happening, but this play occurred in the 1st qtr. Why be up so close?
TASO (Texas High School) mechanics manual says 5-7 yards for the U. He looked to be about 5 yards. Most I believe will be a tad deeper.
Best regards,
Brad
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The Line Judge has responsibility of that reciever. His position should see the three rings if the ball is going the other way from his sideline. The BJ can help but he is usually fixed on the TE on the other side. All it would take would be the LJ glance at downfield of that WR and then return to the line of gain. If there were seven-man mechanics involved, the side judge would have that call. But if it was five-man mechanics, the LJ has to make the call.
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The L would have given that receiver up and changed his focus to the line of scrimmage by the time of the block. The TE is not on th other side, the TE is on same side of the fouing receiver and the block happens directly in between the B and his key, the TE. He should have seen it, not the L
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As a B, I think I would have to pick this up. As an L, I try to watch the wideout as long as possible. Unfortunately, my peripheral vision only tells me when the ball carrier in the backfield is relatively close to being threatened. Since the ball carrier is just inside the near hashmark, I would have shifted my attention to him prior to the block. I do not want to miss a situation where a fumble happens immediately before or after forward progress has been stopped (among things). Although, the line to gain is not a factor, that could have added to the reasons I would shift my focus to the runner more quickly. A sweep away would allow me to watch this receiver much longer. A sweep towards me often allows a longer look. An option play often creates a forward pass vs backwards pass situation which would limit my ability to see this block.
Short version is that this call (like many others) will be often be missed with 5 or fewer officials :(.
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Short version is that this call (like many others) will be often be missed with 5 or fewer officials :(.
Depends on who your B is.
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Depends on who your B is.
...and how many eyes he/she has. 8] Those with 4 should be able to see more...
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I believe the B has to pick this up, however I think there was some confusing information (or maybe I am wrong, it is entirely possible).
Wouldnt the B's first key be the tight end #44 at the bottom of the screen in the formation? He could have been watching that action and miss the receiver/DB crossing and therefore not see the whole play.
The top and bottom wide outs would initially be the LJ/HL, and while they arent threatened, his focus could have been on TE blocking, and not catch the DB/WR until too late, or something like that.
As i said, i could be wrong pray:;
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Yes the TE was the B's key. But if he can't see the TE and still see the the WR who is almost inbetween the B and the TE when he fouls then the B needs to get a vision check