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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: bigjohn on November 02, 2011, 10:07:42 AM
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In Ohio I am pretty sure the officials are supposed to have a copy of the Rulles on the field. Is that true and do any other states do this?
3. Rules Knowledge
Be a rules expert! When a rule is “kicked” all crew members are equally to blame. When a
coach requests a conference to review a perceived misapplication of a rule, use the rule book.
http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/ft/boys/manual.pdf
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deadhorse:
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In Missouri, officials do not carry a rule book on the field. Coaches may carry one and may refer to it in a conference with the officials if they have a rules question/problem. The officials will help the coaches find the appropriate rule. The coach having a rule book on the field is optional, but no problem if they want to refer to it during the discussion.
I've only had this happen once. It wasn't as helpful as I thought because there is so much more than just reading the rule - there is all the cases, the discussions, the interpretations, etc. that go into it.
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John, Ohio crews no longer carry the rule book to the field. We did not have on the field but instead in the linesmans bag (under the visitors bench or where ever kept). Our new mechanics "the gold book" do not list it as required.
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Tom,
This is true however, Dr. Maurer just sent out an email to all tournament officials stating that it is now written that the crew will carry the rules book out to the field. It goes on to say, "If the HC and the officials disagree on a ruling, then EVERY CREW IS REQUIRED TO SHOW THE HC IN THE RULES &/or CASE BOOK what the ruling states.
Just FYI P_S
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The quote I posted is from the Coaches and Officials Manual. Are you not held to what it says there?
I have never seen this magic bag you speak of.
LOL!!!
http://ohsaa.org/sports/ft/boys/manual.pdf
And three cheers for Dr. Maurer
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This is a stupid rule. I would never carry a rulebook out on the field. I know the rules, my crew knows the rules. If something happens and we are unsure, we get together and come up with the best solution possible. You dont see college guys carrying around rule books. If you dont know the rules, then get off the field. Most coaches dont know the rules well enough to challenge anything anyway. If we carried rule books in WV, then games would last 5 hours. Coaches would be asking us to look at a rule all the time. I dont carry one in baseball and will not let a coach come out with a rule book to challenge me. What a dumb idea that is.
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One of the strangest (and funniest) things I've ever seen was a couple years ago during a 9th-week (televised) game to determine play-off eligibility. The game ended in a tie. In one of the play-off periods, during a 1st down running play, there was a BIG loss but the runner was tackled by the facemask. Of course, after enforcement, should have left the offense with 1st and goal from the 25 (if my memory serves me correctly) yd line.
However, the officials got "confused" and, after enforcement, re-set the chains making it 1st and 10!!
At some point, prior to the next RFP, someone from the defensive sideline realized the mistake, called time out and asked for a conference with the R. The officials listened but could not agree on the correct enforcement during the OT. Finally, apparently, someone suggested they look at the rule - but there WAS no rulebook around. Someone on the sideline (maybe a non-working official) told the team questioning the enforcement that he had one in his car. They dispatched him to get it; and 20 minutes later, he returned, The officials looked up the appropriate case book play and, fortunately, corrected the error.
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This is a stupid rule. I would never carry a rulebook out on the field. I know the rules, my crew knows the rules. If something happens and we are unsure, we get together and come up with the best solution possible. You dont see college guys carrying around rule books. If you dont know the rules, then get off the field. Most coaches dont know the rules well enough to challenge anything anyway. If we carried rule books in WV, then games would last 5 hours. Coaches would be asking us to look at a rule all the time. I dont carry one in baseball and will not let a coach come out with a rule book to challenge me. What a dumb idea that is.
Did you and every member of your crew get 100% correct on your part 1 and 2 tests? There are PLENTY of times where officials don't know the rule. I had a WH this year tell me that DPI carried a loss of down on the enforcement! Don't be so arrogant, and don't think that SOME coaches may not know a particular rule better than you do. And it's not THAT a coach may challange you with a rule book, it's HOW he challanges you with the rule book. If he comes walking on the field waving it and yelling that you are wrong, of course he should get flagged. But if he calls time and asks if he can show you the exact rule in question, why would you not allow it?
All that being said, I don't think officials need or should be carrying books on the field. But they should have one on site if needed. Even Ed Armbrister, MLB umpire, sent the 3B U back into the locker room to look a rule a couple of years back, and it was a rule so simple that any first year ump worth his salt should have known.
Brain farts can happen to anyone, coaches and officials alike.
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im sorry there was no need to delay that game for that long for that stupid rule. If you dont know how to enforce penalties, then you either dont need to be working that calibur of a game, or varsity games period. I would not hold up my game for that long. If my crew screws this up, then we will take the blame for it..
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we have rule books in the locker room to see if we missed something, but i am not stopping the game to get my book out to look at it. If i cant answer his question, then i dont need to be working. And yes everyone on my crew did get 100 on the test.
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im sorry there was no need to delay that game for that long for that stupid rule. If you dont know how to enforce penalties, then you either dont need to be working that calibur of a game, or varsity games period.
Well, it would be that CALIBER of a game, but I agree, there are PLENTY of officials working varsity games right now that have no business doing so. Unfortunately, it's not like there is an abundance of officials, so we get what we get.
we have rule books in the locker room to see if we missed something,
By that point, it's too late.
If i cant answer his question, then i dont need to be working.
Wow, an official that has never made a mistake! When are you moving to Georgia? I can make sure you get some great games.
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i know its too late, but im not holding up a game to look up a rule and look like i dont know the rules. I know the rules. I may forget one, but someone on our crew always knows how to handle a situation. If we dont do it right and sell it as good as we possibly can, then we can get away with it.
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Brain farts can happen to anyone, coaches and officials alike.
As a coach, AB, do YOU have a rule and/or case book handy on the sideline in case of such a phenomenon? I sure as hell would if I were a coach - and I'd know how to get to the reference needed (or have an assistant assigned to know it....
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As a coach, AB, do YOU have a rule and/or case book handy on the sideline in case of such a phenomenon? I sure as hell would if I were a coach - and I'd know how to get to the reference needed (or have an assistant assigned to know it....
They are in my bag, which is with me whether I am on the sideline or in the press box. And if I'm in the press box, I am on the headphone with our head coach and giving him rule numbers for his discussion if needed.
And it has helped. We had a crew totally botch a USC enforcement after a score a couple of years ago (the year before the change when it could only be taken on the try). When we told the official the rule and rule number , he spent ten minutes (yes, we had a clock on it because it was a TV game) with his crew, and then came back saying, "Coach, it sems you are pretty sure about this and we aren't, but since you've quoted the rule, we're ruling it the way you suggested." Unbelievable.
And to be honest, I have a NFHS rule and case book, an NCAA rule and stat book, and an NFL rule and stat book, since I work with all three rules sets. And yes, my bag is getting d@mn heavy.
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They are in my bag, which is with me whether I am on the sideline or in the press box. And if I'm in the press box, I am on the headphone with our head coach and giving him rule numbers for his discussion if needed.
And it has helped. We had a crew totally botch a USC enforcement after a score a couple of years ago (the year before the change when it could only be taken on the try). When we told the official the rule and rule number , he spent ten minutes (yes, we had a clock on it because it was a TV game) with his crew, and then came back saying, "Coach, it sems you are pretty sure about this and we aren't, but since you've quoted the rule, we're ruling it the way you suggested." Unbelievable.
And to be honest, I have a NFHS rule and case book, an NCAA rule and stat book, and an NFL rule and stat book, since I work with all three rules sets. And yes, my bag is getting d@mn heavy.
AB, seems like you keep getting bad crews. Perhaps its time to give another association a shot. ;D
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Totally off subject AB but wasn't Ed Ambrister the pinch hitter for Cincy in the '75 World Series that caused Fisk to over throw 2B on the throw after his bunt. Larry Barnette did not rule interference and caused a big flap.
I too am unfamiliar with this "linesman's bag" of which has been spoke. My stuff is on me or in my pockets or with the chain crew. There is a "linesman's cooler" but it is certainly not brought out on to the field where children might be frolicking about. <insert Silver Bullet thingy here>
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Totally off subject AB but wasn't Ed Ambrister the pinch hitter for Cincy in the '75 World Series that caused Fisk to over throw 2B on the throw after his bunt. Larry Barnette did not rule interference and caused a big flap.
Wow, there's one of those brain farts! See, they can happen at any time. It was Ed Montague.
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AB, seems like you keep getting bad crews. Perhaps its time to give another association a shot. ;D
Actually, it was a road game. And the state Assoc Director is one of their alums!
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I know on the old NFHS site more than one guy said they would flag me, a lowly assistant for producing a rules book on the sideline!
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Actually, it was a road game. And the state Assoc Director is one of their alums!
Since I think I know which association you're talking about, and since I'm also one of their alums, your story gives me a sad. :-\
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Wow, there's one of those brain farts! See, they can happen at any time. It was Ed Montague.
According to the Baseball Almanac, it was indeed Larry Barnett. He ruled the collision was neither interference nor obstruction, but just a "train wreck."
From the official box score:
U–Larry Barnett (AL), Dick Stello (NL), George Maloney (AL), Satch Davidson (NL), Nick Colosi (NL), Art Frantz (AL).
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Actually, it was a road game. And the state Assoc Director is one of their alums!
Well, you can't blame a guy for trying.
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I don't know how well the NFHS rule book is written, but in the NCAA perspective the problem I have with bringing the rule book to the sideline (the chain crew could easily keep it, that's not an issue) is the complexity of the rules. If I'm unsure about a ruling, I need to look at rule 2 (usually 2-3 separate places), one of rules 5-7, maybe rule 8, and most likely rule 10, too. This is not exactly trivial to do, and might take quite a long time.
And, even using this process, I often manage to get at least one of the questions in Rom's weekly quizzes wrong, so it's not like I would be 100% on the field under the heat of the moment.
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According to the Baseball Almanac, it was indeed Larry Barnett. He ruled the collision was neither interference nor obstruction, but just a "train wreck."
From the official box score:
U–Larry Barnett (AL), Dick Stello (NL), George Maloney (AL), Satch Davidson (NL), Nick Colosi (NL), Art Frantz (AL).
We're talking about different plays. I was referencing the "add a run three innings later" debacle in Cleveland in 2007. The crew chief was Ed Montague. I mistakenly said Ed Armbrister. Armbrister (and the crew from his game) was never supposed to be part of this story!
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AB, seems like you keep getting bad crews. Perhaps its time to give another association a shot. ;D
To AB: My crew would be happy to work one of your games - a Michigan/Georgia road trip! The mileage and per diem might be a little prohibitive however....... eAt& eAt&
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I know on the old NFHS site more than one guy said they would flag me, a lowly assistant for producing a rules book on the sideline!
They probably meant flag YOU, not just any coach.
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Armbrister (and the crew from his game) was never supposed to be part of this story!
Well, there you go!
We have a coach in our area who constantly complains about "chop blocks", when he really means "cut blocks" (BBW). Two entirely different fouls.
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That's a nationwide disease, my friend. pi1eOn
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I know on the old NFHS site more than one guy said they would flag me, a lowly assistant for producing a rules book on the sideline!
REPLY: Most of us who frequented the NFHS board could probably guess who that official might be. yEs:
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I don't know how well the NFHS rule book is written, but in the NCAA perspective the problem I have with bringing the rule book to the sideline (the chain crew could easily keep it, that's not an issue) is the complexity of the rules. If I'm unsure about a ruling, I need to look at rule 2 (usually 2-3 separate places), one of rules 5-7, maybe rule 8, and most likely rule 10, too. This is not exactly trivial to do, and might take quite a long time.
And, even using this process, I often manage to get at least one of the questions in Rom's weekly quizzes wrong, so it's not like I would be 100% on the field under the heat of the moment.
You are exactly right. We had a play this year, and the coach brought out a rule book to try and show us we were wrong. However, there are also case plays, hours of rule discussions, follow ups from the state or NF that all go in to it too. Looking at a line in a rule book doesn't always answer it.
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In our association for BASEBALL...not football. The prevailing guidance is..if a coach brings a rule book on the field he has excused himself for the remainder of the game and the next game at the same level of competition. In fact we are TOLD to warn him not to bring the book on the field or he WILL be ejected. Football and baseball are alike in the fact that if you simply read the rule book you may not understand or interpret the rule correctly. Cross references, Case books, playing history and rule intent are all things that govern how we make a call.
If a coach is going to argue a rules interpretation he had better know the rules...
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IMO the purpose of the NFHS mechanic of having a book on the field is to afford the crew one additional tool for getting the call right.
It is NOT to be used to powwow with a coach, nor would I honor a coach's request to consult the book simply because he didn't understand the rule. We're not running a rules clinic.
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MB...I understand what you are saying. I don't know of any crews in my area that have a book on the field. That is not to say that they don't, I am just not aware.
I do see the value of having one to ensure a ruling, odd situation or enforcement is correct. I get comments from coaches and wonder at times if they have even read a rules book...the one I hear the most is he was outside the tackle box, that can't be grounding or it was un-catchable that can't be interference.
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In our association for BASEBALL...not football. The prevailing guidance is..if a coach brings a rule book on the field he has excused himself for the remainder of the game and the next game at the same level of competition. In fact we are TOLD to warn him not to bring the book on the field or he WILL be ejected. Football and baseball are alike in the fact that if you simply read the rule book you may not understand or interpret the rule correctly. Cross references, Case books, playing history and rule intent are all things that govern how we make a call.
If a coach is going to argue a rules interpretation he had better know the rules...
I completely agree that thorough rules knowledge requires much more than just reading a line in the book; but I don't understand why your "Association" would take such a hard line on a coach bringing one out regarding a confusing play. Lord knows there are plenty of officials' errors - even on "simple" plays/enforcements. I would respect a coach's effort here (if for no other reason than he knew where to look up the right reference....).
With or without the rule book, a coach has the right to call a TO to question a misapplication of the rules. If he's wrong he's paid a price; if not, we'll correct a mistake (which ain't all bad).
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I get comments from coaches and wonder at times if they have even read a rules book...the one I hear the most is he was outside the tackle box, that can't be grounding or it was un-catchable that can't be interference.
Sounds like they read one, just not the RIGHT one!
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Sounds like they read one, just not the RIGHT one!
Nah, you can do that half asleep on the couch.
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I believe that if I were paying my rent & buying my groceries from my pay as a football coach, I'd damn sure know the rules forward & backward.
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I believe that if I were paying my rent & buying my groceries from my pay as a football coach, I'd damn sure know the rules forward & backward.
You would think that with their livelihood on the line so to speak they would read and know the rule book...but they do not (Atl Blue and I am sure some others being the exception here). I have said here and other forums a lot of coaches get their rules knowledge as seen on TV. This will explain NWA UMPs post on out of the box and uncatchable pass.
I have talked to coaches who do read the rule book but they are looking for loopholes they can use to make up for not being good coaches or have less talented players.