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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on December 11, 2011, 08:03:13 AM
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Texas HS game. 7 man crew. Team A 21 Team B 24 1 minute left in the game. Controversy over this onside kick. The issue being focused on is whether or not the ball went 10 yards. I don't think the video quality allows that to be answered definitively but the issue I see that is not part of the discussion is Team A's early blocking. If I understand the 7 man mechanics right, we would be looking to the far side officials to make that call?
http://youtu.be/fJVN3kMiTuA (http://youtu.be/fJVN3kMiTuA)
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I cant see the ball to know where it was when the first blocks were initiated. Also, looked like "mutual combat" rather than A blocking.
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I can't see the ball on the video either but based on where the ball ended up, it looks like the blocks were early. It seems like the official on the far side on Team A's restraining line has a good view of this. I don't agree with the idea of mutual combat. B4 and B(?)(player starts inside B4 and near the hash) don't try to engage A. The player whose number I can't see, actually steps backward and gets hit.
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Can't see the ball. I see one downfield quasi-block by K, but not of a severity that gets the flag-hand twitchy.
(shrug)
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2 more views:
http://youtu.be/3dZB39MOeYk (http://youtu.be/3dZB39MOeYk)
http://youtu.be/sx8IsiVJ75Q (http://youtu.be/sx8IsiVJ75Q)
I see the ball popping off the ground right at the KO, and then hitting ground 2d time just on the Team A side of the 50 and bopuncing high in the air and just over the 50 on the Team B side when A's player grabs the ball while airborne and come to ground right on the 50. Can we agree that Team A was not eligible to block at least until he ball was at its apex after the 2d bounce? If so, then we can see what the blockers were doing before the ball got to that point.
We have had videos this year of NCAA 7 man crews missing this same early blocking so it is no surprise guys who may not be use to working 7 man crews would not see it either but something hopefully that is part of pregame discussion when transitioning from 5 to 7 man crews.
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Much better quality - and angle. I have White 27 with illegal blocking, and yes, it sure durn affected the play.
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I was working the down box and standing around the B40 during the kick. I knew there was no way for me to see if the ball would go 10 yards so I was watching the blocking. I did not see blocking at the time, but the first video shows #10 and #57 blocking early. Just goes to prove how difficult it is to follow all the action. I see the ball hitting the ground at A46. A friend of mine and I are going back and forth about this. Just for conversation disregard the blocking, read rule 6-1-3-2 and comment further. SJ was on team B's restraining line but could only see #4 from the back and could not see where the ball was caught. Airborne #4 catches the ball apparently over the 50 going backward and falls to the A49 where the ball was spotted. Lots of comments on Dallas News about the cheating refs and all the blown calls. Only blown call I saw favored the losing team (DPI) and was missed because of angles. Losing HC tells the LJ that "they should get the f*** out the stadium before anyone sees them."
Check out the article below. Once in a lifetime event during the winning TD run. A fox runs across the field during the play.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/high-schools/football-news/headlines/20111210-silver-fox-swag-animal-runs-on-smu-field-during-carroll-s-winning-td.ece
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#4 POSSESSED (not "caught") the ball while it was barely beyond the 10 yards. Ball had broken plane so the touch was legal. He was not hit so his own act of falling backward as he came to ground and landing at some place between his 49 and the 50 which only means that is where the ball will be spotted. The reports I have read say the crew spotted the ball so the front tip was touching the 50. Is that where you fellas set up at?
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Check out the article below. Once in a lifetime event during the winning TD run. A fox runs across the field during the play.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/high-schools/football-news/headlines/20111210-silver-fox-swag-animal-runs-on-smu-field-during-carroll-s-winning-td.ece
I've been gone from North Texas for many moons. But isn't the Ford Stadium on the site of the former Ownby ... on SMU's campus ... in Highland Park ... in the middle of an ultra-urbanized part of Dallas ?!?!
Are there deer grazing along Central Expressway?
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A57 blocks B18 early. A27 blocks B4 early. With this video it's much clearer where the ball is but you have to look at both this one and the earlier one to tell the blocks are early. As far as to whether or not they should get your flag hand "itchy", I don't recall anything in the rule book about A not being allowed to "pancake" block before the ball has gone 10 yards. It says, they CAN'T BLOCK. These blocks are early, should have been called.
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Mike...we set up on the A49. This made the whole thing look bad in my opinion, but that is where #4 was down with the ball. Is forward progress a legit concern for A on a free kick given they can't advance?
Diablo...this is the on-campus stadium at SMU (former Ownby) in the middle of Dallas. Someone told us that there are two foxes running around campus and they are frequently seen around the stadium.
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I can see this getting missed pretty easily with a 5 man crew and a short kick that is a surprise. But a 7 man crew set up in short free kick formation and this was missed? IMO the receiving team did a poor job of covering the kick but regardless of that two early blocks created an advantage that should not be overlooked by the third team on the field. There is plenty of time pre-kick to think over the things to look for on this play and even to restate who has what responsibility among each of the 3 officials within ten yards of each other on each sideline. Pretty much knowing what is coming here should allow each of those six sets of eyes to have laser like focus on their area of responsibility.
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Someone told us that there are two foxes running around campus and they are frequently seen around the stadium.
Having been to SMU, I can assure there are many more than two.
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I don't work 7 man.
Is there a short kick formation for 7 man?
Do the 2 deep wings move up? Do they go to B's 40? Or somewhere else?
Who is responsible for the early blocks? It seems like L and H should have ball but do they in 7 man?
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I would agree with Coach
(http://3.cdn.nhle.com/stars/images/upload/2010/03/A0004SOFT_slide.jpg[/img
[img]http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/367/712/smu_display_image.jpg?1283132066)
(http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0912/campus.cheer.smu.amanda/images/A_Green-(8).jpg)
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Is there a short kick formation for 7 man?
Yes. You put six officials in the "box" or within the 10 yard zone. Three on each sideline with four total on the restraining lines and two half way between the two restraining lines. TASO has a 7 man mechanics manual available also.
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I would agree with Coach
(http://3.cdn.nhle.com/stars/images/upload/2010/03/A0004SOFT_slide.jpg[/img
[img]http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/367/712/smu_display_image.jpg?1283132066)
(http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0912/campus.cheer.smu.amanda/images/A_Green-(8).jpg)
You are right. Let's just say that every one of us on the SMU chain crew want to work the clip!! Somehow it always seems to be DallasLJ who gets that duty.
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You are right. Let's just say that every one of us on the SMU chain crew want to work the clip!! Somehow it always seems to be DallasLJ who gets that duty.
Now you know why I like the clip; some freedom of movement to visit with the little people.
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Not surprising...complaint to be "filed"
http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/high-school/post/_/id/9828/skyline-to-file-complaint-over-onside-kick-call (http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/high-school/post/_/id/9828/skyline-to-file-complaint-over-onside-kick-call)
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Not surprising...complaint to be "filed"
http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/high-school/post/_/id/9828/skyline-to-file-complaint-over-onside-kick-call (http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/high-school/post/_/id/9828/skyline-to-file-complaint-over-onside-kick-call)
don't know really how anyone can make anything out of that video?
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http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Dallas-ISD-plans-UIL-protest-over-referees-call-135484058.html (http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Dallas-ISD-plans-UIL-protest-over-referees-call-135484058.html)
1:17 mark. Great call by the official on the 50. Ball was LEGALLY touched.
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After further review, the call on the field stands. Now play defense and protect your lead and quit laying the victim card.
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..... Great call by the official on the 50. Ball was LEGALLY touched.
Have to agree - ball is just past 50, although very close factoring in the overhead camera location and angle, and first blocks are made at virtually the same time the ball crosses the 50 so they are also legal. The call looks good.
Shows how tough it can be to make the calls when on the ground with the same views as the original clips. From the original clips the two blocks sure looked illegal - based on the overhead clip in the article, they are OK.
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No way Roy. The ball bounced just on Team A's side of the 50 and at the time it is doing that, A is already blocking.
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Agree Mike.
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Picture 1 is of first blocking contact. Picture 4 is when the ball first breaks the plane of the 50.
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How do I get pictures to insert at full size?
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It looks like the player that ultimately touches the ball takes 3 or 4 steps after the blocks begin before he touches the ball at the 50.
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Now you know why I like the clip; some freedom of movement to visit with the little people.
You mean the pretty people!!
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No doubt about it. The blocks were early. The touch is close and I believe a good call - LEGAL TOUCHING. But the blocks should have drawn a flag IMO.
It's mildly interesting that the folks who are upset about this are complaining about the wrong thing. Of course, they don't know the rules so it's not that surprising.
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http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Dallas-ISD-plans-UIL-protest-over-referees-call-135484058.html (http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Dallas-ISD-plans-UIL-protest-over-referees-call-135484058.html)
1:17 mark.
Great call by the official on the 50. Ball was LEGALLY touched.
Agree, especially considering the H slid down the sideline and totaling obscured the S's view. :!#
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No way Roy. The ball bounced just on Team A's side of the 50 and at the time it is doing that, A is already blocking.
I surrender - after several more slow motion views. The blocking does occur before the ball crosses, so the blocking is where the flag should be thrown.
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Agree, especially considering the H slid down the sideline and totaling obsured the S's view. :!#
From Fencewire:
(http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n585/fencewire1/onside.jpg)
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Finally got the WFAA video to play. From the other 2 videos it is clear that the blocks are early. But this video shows something the others don't.
I could be wrong, but it LOOKS like the ball hits A57 at about the 1:27 mark of the video. If it hits him, it caroms off the back of his leg. What's surprising is that the ball continues to go forward and so, I could be wrong, it could just be an optical illusion. But if it hits A57 at that point, not only should there be a penalty for an early block, there should ALSO be illegal touching.
If there's only an early block, then A rekicks after the penalty. If there's illegal touching no rekick is needed, B's ball. Look at it, let me know if you think it hits A57.
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Doesn't hit A57.
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Deja Vu all over again!!! This clip came from Rom Gilbert's Video Clip Page this week
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF9Ompev7_0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF9Ompev7_0)
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So a 7 man crew in D2 semi-final misses the same call. No uproar because B got the ball.
Any idea why they weren't in short kick formation? Kicking team trailing badly in 4th quarter.
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this is probably the most missed call at all levels especially when the illegal block occurs more than 10 yards down field - usually because we are so concentrated on the ball, touching, going 10 yards etc. Very difficult to essentially abandoned the ball 8 yards down field to look at a kicker 11-12-13 yards potentially blocking.
in short kick formation we have it covered much better, but still quite difficult.
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this is probably the most missed call at all levels especially when the illegal block occurs more than 10 yards down field - usually because we are so concentrated on the ball, touching, going 10 yards etc. Very difficult to essentially abandoned the ball 8 yards down field to look at a kicker 11-12-13 yards potentially blocking.
in short kick formation we have it covered much better, but still quite difficult.
Great point.
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this is probably the most missed call at all levels especially when the illegal block occurs more than 10 yards down field - usually because we are so concentrated on the ball, touching, going 10 yards etc. Very difficult to essentially abandoned the ball 8 yards down field to look at a kicker 11-12-13 yards potentially blocking.
in short kick formation we have it covered much better, but still quite difficult.
If you don't mind, what are your conference's assignments/keys/responsibilities for each of the six in the box?
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If you don't mind, what are your conference's assignments/keys/responsibilities for each of the six in the box?
Is there a standard for who watches what? I've looked in the mechanics manual but can't find it.
Is it something that conferences decide how to do on their own?
If so, what does your conference do? (anybody)
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TASO's 7 man mechanics manual says:
Responsibility for the blocking in this situation goes to the B, U, H and L but also assigns touching responsibility to H and L ( as well as F and S). I believe many crews in college have
adopted a mechanic wherein the off officials (cross field guys) concentrate
on the blocking and guys where ball is concentrate on touches. Either way
you look at it, we should have had 2 - 4 guys looking at blocks but
apparently had 6 looking at the ball. I know in my HS crew we have talked
about this very situation many times and we rely on cross field guys to pick
up blocks and let the other 2 focus on ball but help on blocks if they can.
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So in 5-man mechanics early in a game, where we're not anticipating an onside kick, any suggestions on how to handle when we see the kick and only then realize what we've got?
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Off side official(s) should watch for the blocks.
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So in 5-man mechanics early in a game, where we're not anticipating an onside kick, any suggestions on how to handle when we see the kick and only then realize what we've got?
I think someone suggested earlier, start by treating every kick as if it will be an onside kick. Then adjust when it's deep. The deep coverage is there in 5 man so no hurry to get back anyway.
I like how Mike's crew does it. That's how we do it and it seems to work. Only time we had to make the call, the ball stopped at 8 yards so it was easy to call the blocks illegal.
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So in 5-man mechanics early in a game, where we're not anticipating an onside kick, any suggestions on how to handle when we see the kick and only then realize what we've got?
As has been stated earlier, preparation is key.
Given what is at stake - possession of the ball with good field position - it is absolutely mandatory for up guys to prepare for EVERY free kick to be an onside kick. That mindset should elicit mental imaging and review of responsibilities. Focus on what you will have to see and expect.
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Off side official(s) should watch for the blocks.
Off side officials are usually more that 40 yds from the point of attack. How effective are they at seeing who is initiating blocks and the location of the ball when alleged blocks occur?
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As has been stated earlier, preparation is key.
Given what is at stake - possession of the ball with good field position - it is absolutely mandatory for up guys to prepare for EVERY free kick to be an onside kick. That mindset should elicit mental imaging and review of responsibilities. Focus on what you will have to see and expect.
Excellent advice from Diablo!! We should be thinking on-side for every free kick. It starts with the allowance we give the kicking team on a restraining line. On-side = no tolerance. If we aren't mentally prepared for that when the ball is kicked it all goes "to hell in a hand basket" after that.
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Crew of 7, apparent onside kick formation:
S/F has WHERE - ball location relative to B's restraining line when first touched. Don't worry so much about who. Secondary on knowing if ball is kicked into the ground. Primary on knowing if B are offside (rare, but it has happened).
H/L has WHO - who first touches the ball. Don't worry so much about where. Also, primary on knowing if ball is kicked into the ground.
U/B - check for blocking by A before they are eligible to touch the ball. Don't worry about touching of ball. Also, primary on knowing if A are offiside.
When the dust settles, the S/F can report that the ball was first touched beyond/behind B's restraining line (he may not know who, but he knows where). The H/L can report that it was first touched by A/B (he may not know where, but he knows who). The U/B can offer input on any illegal blocking. With that info, the puzzle can be put together, and a proper picture formed. Nothing says that an individual officials have to have all the answers. Piece it together.
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Crew of 7, apparent onside kick formation:
S/F has WHERE - ball location relative to B's restraining line when first touched. Don't worry so much about who. Secondary on knowing if ball is kicked into the ground. Primary on knowing if B are offside (rare, but it has happened).
H/L has WHO - who first touches the ball. Don't worry so much about where. Also, primary on knowing if ball is kicked into the ground.
U/B - check for blocking by A before they are eligible to touch the ball. Don't worry about touching of ball. Also, primary on knowing if A are offiside.
When the dust settles, the S/F can report that the ball was first touched beyond/behind B's restraining line (he may not know who, but he knows where). The H/L can report that it was first touched by A/B (he may not know where, but he knows who). The U/B can offer input on any illegal blocking. With that info, the puzzle can be put together, and a proper picture formed. Nothing says that an individual officials have to have all the answers. Piece it together.
That's a good workable scheme to start with. Can we refine it?
1. How does the crew handle a potential KCI?
2. How do the B/U know if the block is legal? Don't they have to have knowledge of where the ball was at the time of the block or who touched it before the block?