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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on December 14, 2011, 05:27:44 AM
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What is the NFHS rule re when Team A (kickers) can block Team B (receivers) on a free kick? Do they have to wait until they (kickers) are eligible to touch the ball before they can block?
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What is the NFHS rule re when Team A (kickers) can block Team B (receivers) on a free kick? Do they have to wait until they (kickers) are eligible to touch the ball before they can block?
Provided the blocks are legal and not Kick Catch Interference, there are no restrictions on when the Kicking Team can block the Receiving Team.
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Provided the blocks are legal and not Kick Catch Interference, there are no restrictions on when the Kicking Team can block the Receiving Team.
True, and since an onside kick, when done properly, cannot be caught, KCI generally doesn't enter the equation.
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Seems a little strange. I thought NFHS rules generally were more safety conscious than NCAA yet this is a real safety issue and why the NCAA rules were changed to outlaw the early blocks
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Seems a little strange. I thought NFHS rules generally were more safety conscious than NCAA yet this is a real safety issue and why the NCAA rules were changed to outlaw the early blocks
As a general rule, you're quite correct: NFHS tries to make safety a priority. But another priority is to ensure uniformity of enforcement, and that's a tricky rule to enforce. So I expect NFHS figures that (a) not a lot of kids get injured on this play, and (b) it would be much harder to enforce, thus no rule.
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As a general rule, you're quite correct: NFHS tries to make safety a priority. But another priority is to ensure uniformity of enforcement, and that's a tricky rule to enforce. So I expect NFHS figures that (a) not a lot of kids get injured on this play, and (b) it would be much harder to enforce, thus no rule.
I certainly would agree with this - especially since we have only 4 or 5 man crews....
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If I follow what the NCAA rule restriction is, it provides a 10 yard head start and full head of steam to the kicking team approaching the kicked ball. Allowing blocking by the receivers in the neutral zone may very well have been done to negate this advantage to the kickers for the safety of the receiving team.
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Other way around actually. NCAA - The Kickers are prohibited from getting that 10 yard head of steam and then blocking in front of the ball. NFHS permits that. That is concussion city waiting to happen.
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Nothing in either set of rules prevents the receiving team from getting a 10 yard head of steam either. Just start on your own 40 yard line and run forward at the kick.
Yes, NFHS are usually more safety conscious. But I'm not sure the prohibition on blocking in the NCAA is a safety issue. I think the rule is more for competitive balance. Under NFHS rules, we teach the kicker to put the ball in a certain spot, and teach the blockers to block ahead of the ball and to block R players away from the ball, and the kicker is responsible for falling on the ball. The blocks aren't particularly violent, but if done right, they are effective.
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The NCAA rule was changed in 1990 specifically because of coach complaints about injuries to receiving team players. Source : "Anatomy of a Game"
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Don't be shocked if the Federation tweaks the rule for 2012. It might just start with requiring at least 4 on either side of the ball, but could also include blocking restrictions. I agree it would be next to impossible to officiate blocking restrictions with a 5 man crew.
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Yet we do it routinely in Texas and Mass.
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Yet we do it routinely in Texas and Mass.
Well, if this video is any indication, not well! ;D
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We get it sometimes. As always, ignore the commentators.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU aWaRd
Best regards,
Brad
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Well, if this video is any indication, not well! ;D
Well played sir ! aWaRd
Would it help if I mentioned most of the guys in the missed call video are college officials who just happen to work Texas HS ball as opposed to guys who work only Texas HS ball?
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Well played sir ! aWaRd
Would it help if I mentioned most of the guys in the missed call video are college officials who just happen to work Texas HS ball as opposed to guys who work only Texas HS ball?
It's missed at college levels, too. With all the focus on the ball going ten yards, who is watching the blocks that aren't on the line?
Actually, I would like to see it eliminated, or modified. I would like to allow blocks to occur beyond the 10 yard restraining line whether the ball has gone 10 yards or not. It wouldn't make any safety differences to the current rule. Players beyond the restraining line should expect to be blocked.
Most onside kicks fail, changing the rule MIGHT change the odds SLIGHTLY.
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Also note the coach/referee conference starts inside of the numbers before the 'ol coach starts his rain dance and the white hat decides the conference might be better suited for the sideline, rather than 10 yards inbounds. :sTiR:
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Some of those rule change proposals were in the recent NFHS questionaire.
Just another change in search of a problem. I might see two onside kicks a season and I've never seen a block that was any more dangerous than any other play. If the full head of steam theory is in play here, we should disallow blocking on all kicks and long runs.
Just as I believed when I umpired Little League that youth coaches shouldn't be allowed to watch Braves games, I believe HS coaches should be banned from watching CFB games. Only way I figure these proposals get brought up.
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We went to the NCAA rule this year in MN regarding formations (4 on each side of kicker) and blocking during free kicks.
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The NCAA rule was changed in 1990 specifically because of coach complaints about injuries to receiving team players. Source : "Anatomy of a Game"
That's interesting that this was viewed as a safety/injury issue. I would have thought that it was put in to prevent an unfair advantage. Without it, the K team can just wipe every body out while the kicker dribbled then pounced once it went 10 yards (with no R around).
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We get it sometimes. As always, ignore the commentators.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU aWaRd
Best regards,
Brad
Is that the correct signal for an illegal block?
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For this particular foul that is the correct signal. If the blocking technique itself violated another rule the applicable signal would be used.
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And that's the problem with not having the R miked at this field. Everyone in the stands and in the TV booth were confused (and mad!)
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Is that the correct signal for an illegal block?
I realize this was a TX game and therefore NCAA rules, but this is on a NFHS board.
In FED, no, that is not the correct signal for Illegal Blocking. But in FED, this wouldn't be an Illegal Block.
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Seems a little strange. I thought NFHS rules generally were more safety conscious than NCAA yet this is a real safety issue and why the NCAA rules were changed to outlaw the early blocks
REPLY: There's another similar head-scratcher when you hear that the low portion of a chop block is "below the knee" in Fed, but "at the thigh or below in NCAA." Which is safer?
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...But in FED, this wouldn't be an Illegal Block.
REPLY: Joe, Of course now that the 2012 Fed rule changes have been published, we can't say that anymore. Bigger question is if we can develop the proper mechanics to cover this properly.
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REPLY: Joe, Of course now that the 2012 Fed rule changes have been published, we can't say that anymore. Bigger question is if we can develop the proper mechanics to cover this properly.
Will be very interested in any special mechanics advice available for 4 man, or even 5 man KO mechanics. Currently, in a 4 man configuration, the Linesman has been advised to focus on the Teed ball to first determine whether the ball was kicked directly into the air, or downward into the ground, then to refocus on whatever action followed, including whether the ball traveled beyond R's line and if touched before that point, which team first touched it.
In a 4 man crew, I wouldn't anticipate there will be a lot of "early" blocks detected as a result of this rule change, simply because not a lot of early blocks will be seen in the midst of the chaos that usually results from an onside kick. I suspect in 5 Man, we might be able to move the BJ up somewhat to help, but that will only work where an onside kick is anticipated, and obviously will create a gap elsewhere.
Just have to do the best we can.
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REPLY: The problem we'll face is that the official who is in the best position to see 'early' blocks during onside kicks is likely to be the one who needs to concentrate on whether or not the ball crossed the neutral zone. "A man can't serve two masters."
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REPLY: The problem we'll face is that the official who is in the best position to see 'early' blocks during onside kicks is likely to be the one who needs to concentrate on whether or not the ball crossed the neutral zone. "A man can't serve two masters."
Yep. The covering official will have to (re)train himself to watch blocking until the ball threatens the NZ, while at the same time making sure the ball hasn't been touched by R. Good luck!
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REPLY: The problem we'll face is that the official who is in the best position to see 'early' blocks during onside kicks is likely to be the one who needs to concentrate on whether or not the ball crossed the neutral zone. "A man can't serve two masters."
I disagree - the off-official on the R line will be the one to see the blocking the best while the covering official on the R line will have the ball.
Now that I type this, I realize you guys run 5 man and are talking about normal onside kicks, not obvious situation. I run 6 man, so it won't be as hard (or if you guys are in obvious onside kick situation it won't be as hard).
You may have to adjust your 5 man mechanics and put 3 in the box with 2 guys deep on normal kick plays...
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I agree in theory in putting 3 for potential on-sides, but that leaves only 2 deep - where most of the action is most of the time.
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REPLY: The problem we'll face is that the official who is in the best position to see 'early' blocks during onside kicks is likely to be the one who needs to concentrate on whether or not the ball crossed the neutral zone. "A man can't serve two masters."
Saying what we should do, and then doing what we say, are two distinctly different things. "A man can't serve two masters", seems a lot closer to reality than instructing to simply, "See more of what you're looking at". Of course one very desireable option would be for the NFHS to MANDATE 6 man crews, to help some of us leave the mechanics of the 1960s to being fond memories.
Perhaps this is just another example of a long line of "things that look good on paper", which always reminds me of the warning, "You can draw a picture of a beautiful women, but you can't make love to it." (or words to that effect).
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...one very desireable option would be for the NFHS to MANDATE 6 man crews...
That will NEVER happen. And I emphasize NEVER, as that is a very long time!
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I guess we are spoiled. ALL of our varsity games are either 6 or 7 man crews. Five is the absolute minimum allowed for a legal game, and we haven't had a varsity five man crew in MANY years. I understand some rural areas of the state do some games with 5 man crews, but they are the rare exception. Add to this that ECOs are officials with the crew, not school employees. We usually have 5 (and sometmes 6) man crews for JV and Freshman games.
Now if Georgia can do it, why couldn't it be done everywhere?
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I guess we are spoiled. ALL of our varsity games are either 6 or 7 man crews. Five is the absolute minimum allowed for a legal game, and we haven't had a varsity five man crew in MANY years. I understand some rural areas of the state do some games with 5 man crews, but they are the rare exception. Add to this that ECOs are officials with the crew, not school employees. We usually have 5 (and sometmes 6) man crews for JV and Freshman games.
Now if Georgia can do it, why couldn't it be done everywhere?
Numbers of available warm bodies and money are two places to start.
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Numbers of available warm bodies and money are two places to start.
Our SAT scores may suck, but we da#n sure support our football!
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I guess we are spoiled. ALL of our varsity games are either 6 or 7 man crews. Five is the absolute minimum allowed for a legal game, and we haven't had a varsity five man crew in MANY years. I understand some rural areas of the state do some games with 5 man crews, but they are the rare exception. Add to this that ECOs are officials with the crew, not school employees. We usually have 5 (and sometmes 6) man crews for JV and Freshman games.
Now if Georgia can do it, why couldn't it be done everywhere?
5/6 man for JV / Frosh games!!??!!??? WOW! We are lucky to have 4 and usually have 3.
Well, I shouldn't be surprised... this IS a school district that can afford a kicking coach :)
Usually when schools around here look to cut costs on athletic budgets, they unfortunately cut the number of officials on sub-varsity games. This is why our area has 3 officials on a game for sub-varsity.
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I guess we are spoiled. ALL of our varsity games are either 6 or 7 man crews. Five is the absolute minimum allowed for a legal game, and we haven't had a varsity five man crew in MANY years. I understand some rural areas of the state do some games with 5 man crews, but they are the rare exception. Add to this that ECOs are officials with the crew, not school employees. We usually have 5 (and sometmes 6) man crews for JV and Freshman games.
Now if Georgia can do it, why couldn't it be done everywhere?
Numbers of available warm bodies and money are two places to start.
For us, it was a matter of warm bodies more than money. We had three huge recruiting classes in a row, and have been able to go to 7-man crews on virtually all of out AAA games last year. We still send 5-man crews out to the boonies, because the schools don't want to pay travel for that many officials, and there's occasionally a AAA game where we're short on bodies. Our AAA schools are still paying the same amount per crew for 7 that they were for 5, and we're divvying it up 7 ways, so it's effectively a bit of a "pay cut", but those games don't involve travel, so very few officials mind.
From what I hear from our board, the goal over the next couple of seasons is to eliminate the disparity between the 7-man and 5-man pay per official, so it looks like the AAA rates will go up and the AA and A rates will probably stay the same. Though we did get a surprising $10 per game raise last season...
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I know we are off topic, but I had to get this in. Forget MANY... Arkansas schools don't want to pay travel for ANY officials. Three of four 7A/6A conferences eliminated paying mileage in the next cycle and are going to a flat fee beginning this fall. The sad part about it all was that the first cut came in the west, where crowds average over 10k, and where they can well afford it. News never traveled so fast from west to east!
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I know we are off topic, but I had to get this in. Forget MANY... Arkansas schools don't want to pay travel for ANY officials. Three of four 7A/6A conferences eliminated paying mileage in the next cycle and are going to a flat fee beginning this fall. The sad part about it all was that the first cut came in the west, where crowds average over 10k, and where they can well afford it. News never traveled so fast from west to east!
No travel money in PA...
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For FL, the State allows for $0.60 (I believe) per mile, one way.
My assn has a flat fee for every school.
So no matter if I'm across the street or 60 miles down the road the travel $ is the same. It works itself out in the wash over the course of the season from traveling to far & close schools.
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REPLY: The problem we'll face is that the official who is in the best position to see 'early' blocks during onside kicks is likely to be the one who needs to concentrate on whether or not the ball crossed the neutral zone. "A man can't serve two masters."
Back "in the day" (even with 4-man), and later with the BJ, we used to have them with the ball on all kick-offs - giving us a good inside-out look. Does anyone think bringing the U (or BJ) back into the center of the field would give us a better perspective on these blocking fouls? I admit there might be an issue with "depth perception" when the ball is close to the 50; but I would think just slight movement by the U/BJ could provide an adequate angle.