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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on December 18, 2011, 07:57:48 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHPARPWuo-o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHPARPWuo-o)
Why isn't this a scrimmage kick formation?
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The roughing the kicker rule doesn't say anything about requiring a scrimmage kick formation, just that "...it is obvious that a scrimmage kick will be made...." Since the QB is also the punter and he initially got under center and then shifted back about 8 yards and took a quick snap, it wasn't obvious to the R.
Best regards,
Brad
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1. Did they use the numbering exception? That would have added to the "obvious a kick would be made".
2. Once the potential punter dropped back nine yards, took the snap and immediately held the ball in front of him to drop the ball, it sure seemed pretty obvious a kick was going to be made. Besides, he didn't rule a kick wasn't obvious, he ruled it wasn't RTK because they weren't in scrimmage kick formation, which is applying the wrong criterium. If it wasn't obvious a kick was going to be made, why did he drop the flag in the first place? Oh yeah, because the kicker was roughed! He wasn't waving off someone else's flag, the R dropped the flag because he saw the kicker was roughed. He then thought, "Wait, they weren't in a scrimmage kick formation, so no foul." That line of thinking was incorrect. If he didn't judge that the kick was going to be obvious, he never should have dropped the flag in the first place, because he thought it wasn't obvious. By dropping the flag, he judged that it WAS obvious a kick was going to be made.
3. It all became moot when the kicking team recovered the muff! At that point, the much smarter announcement would have been: RTK, declined, first down.
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That looked to me, and I think everyone, that this was just as likely to be a pass play as anything. Especially with the QB lifting his leg like he does on every other shotgun play. No way was it obvious a kick might be attempted. Yes, the other SKF criteria may be met, but not that criterion. And they ALL have be met, not just 2/3.
But, that is actually unrelated to running into/roughing the kicker. Regardless of the formation at the snap, those rules apply when it obvious a scrimmage will be made (not may be made - will be made). In this case, it is purely judgment on the part of the R as to whether or not it was obvious to the B players that a kick would be attempted. Fortunately, moot, since A would decline any such penalty, anyway, in this case.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHPARPWuo-o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHPARPWuo-o)
Why isn't this a scrimmage kick formation?
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In this case, it is purely judgment on the part of the R as to whether or not it was obvious to the B players that a kick would be attempted.
OK, but he threw the flag for RTK, and then picked it up and announced it was no foul because they weren't in a SKF.
If he judged it wasn't obvious a kick was being made, then why did he throw the flag in the first place? If he threw it, then it was obvious to him that a kick was being made.
One way or the other, he missed this one. Thankfully, the result made it a moot point.
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I was deliberatley staying out of that. You'll need to ask him.
If he judged it wasn't obvious a kick was being made, then why did he throw the flag in the first place? If he threw it, then it was obvious to him that a kick was being made.
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2 possibilities:
As the play developed and he had time to think, he talked himself into the idea a kick was not obvious in that situation so waved it off, or
A crew mate told him to consider that and then he waved it off
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2 possibilities:
As the play developed and he had time to think, he talked himself into the idea a kick was not obvious in that situation so waved it off, or
A crew mate told him to consider that and then he waved it off
OK, but again, go back to his announcement:
"There was no foul on the play for running into the kicker as it was not a scrimmage kick formation."
As Macman and Brad correctly point out above, the formation had nothing to do with it. Sounds like he was waving off the flag for the wrong reason.
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OK, but again, go back to his announcement:
"There was no foul on the play for running into the kicker as it was not a scrimmage kick formation."
As Macman and Brad correctly point out above, the formation had nothing to do with it. Sounds like he was waving off the flag for the wrong reason.
As with all calls, the bottom line is to get it right. Sometimes we react too soon and pull the trigger. Then have to make a correction. Those aren't pretty, but it ends up being right.
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As with all calls, the bottom line is to get it right. Sometimes we react too soon and pull the trigger. Then have to make a correction. Those aren't pretty, but it ends up being right.
I disagree. The bottom line is to get it right FOR THE RIGHT REASON. I fully understand that sometimes flags get thrown too quickly and have to get picked up. But pick it up because you know why it has to be corrected.
The learning point here is exactly what El Macman and Brad said earlier: the formation has nothing to do with it.
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The learning point here is exactly what El Macman and Brad said earlier: the formation has nothing to do with it.
I suspect that Team A not being in scrimmage kick formation contributed to the R's reasoning that a scrimmage kick was not obvious.
Just as there are errors made in the call, explanations can also be off key. The R just used the wrong term.
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But, that is actually unrelated to running into/roughing the kicker. Regardless of the formation at the snap, those rules apply when it obvious a scrimmage will be made (not may be made - will be made).
Here is the NCAA text where it does not say "will be made" but rather "may be attempted".
Scrimmage Kick Formation
ARTICLE 10. a. A scrimmage kick formation is a formation with at least one
player seven yards or more behind the neutral zone, no player in position to
receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs, and it is obvious
that a kick may be attempted (A.R. 7-1-3-VII and A.R. 9-1-14-I-III).
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Here is the NCAA text where it does not say "will be made" but rather "may be attempted".
Scrimmage Kick Formation
ARTICLE 10. a. A scrimmage kick formation is a formation with at least one
player seven yards or more behind the neutral zone, no player in position to
receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs, and it is obvious
that a kick may be attempted (A.R. 7-1-3-VII and A.R. 9-1-14-I-III).
That just describes what a scrimmage kick formation is (used to allow numbering exception). There is no mention of a requirement to be in a scrimmage kick formation for their to be roughing or running into the kicker.
Here is the applicable rule:
Roughing or Running Into Kicker or Holder
ARTICLE 16. a. When it is obvious that a scrimmage kick will be made, no
opponent shall run into or rough the kicker or the holder of a place kick (A.R.
9-1-16-I, III and VI).
Best regards,
Brad