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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: Etref on December 22, 2011, 08:23:04 AM
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In the game last night (Poinsettia Bowl), there was a RTK called against TCU. Tech was punting from around their own goal line and TCU rusher slipped on the turf and slid past the punter. As the punter came down he landed on the arm of the sliding TCU player. The R who was in perfect position called this roughing.
I thought at best it was a running in to.
Did anyone else see this play. I do not have video.
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From your description I agree, running into would be the more correct call in that kind of a situation.
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Looking cross-eyed at as kicker should be a penalty, touching one should be cause for arrest. And yes, I coach kickers.
Seriously, even I had a hard time seeing that one as roughing. I think there was a little more than "falling on the arm of the runnner", but that contact didn't rise to the level of roughing.
Of course, that didn't keep mike May from butchering the "roughing vs running into" disctinction.
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I saw it....hardly even running into the kicker. Inconsequential touch embellished by that non-skill position player, the kicker :sTiR:
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I saw it and even the common-taters got it right. At best, running into, and even that could be a stretch in the eyes of some.
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that non-skill position player, the kicker
Each year, during football camp, we make a lineman, or wide receiver, or even a QB kick an extra point. If they make it, no running after practice.
We have well conditioned players because they ALWAYS have to run.
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I kicked and punted, even led the team in tackles on kickoffs (why not, I had a running start?). It took as much skill for those two aspects of my game then blocking and tackling. And believe me, with the centers I had, I had to have the best hands on the team. If I am not mistaken, Ray Guy played both ways in college and only in the pros did they limit him to punting and kicking off.
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I saw it and even in the replays would have a hard time flagging for running into the kicker. To me it was a great no call.
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I saw it and even in the replays would have a hard time flagging for running into the kicker. To me it was a great no call.
Except they did flag it and marked off 15 and gave Tech a first down..............................
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the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObZJIV98t5g&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObZJIV98t5g&feature=related)
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We need a "waving off a penalty" icon.
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(http://www.bafra.org/images/signal13.gif)
(http://www.hometeamsonline.com/photos/lacrosse/FZWLACROSSE/Disregard_Flag.jpg)
(http://monetxtreme4.k4a4.com/regx/ss05-1017/jb/1077-Jessica-Biel-almost-naked-waving-panties-for-help-s217-1013-10h.jpg)
(http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/photomak/photomak1101/photomak110100287/8788664-standing-young-man-in-grey-suit-with-sexy-red-panties.jpg)
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TXMike.....I'm shocked! But I love it.
#3 please
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On my worst day of officiating, I couldn't call that as a PF. That call really makes you wonder about integrity...
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I believe the guidelines are that if a defender makes forcible contact with the plant foot/leg, then it's a foul for roughing.
There is no question that he hits the plant foot. The forcible part is certainly arguable, but in real time the referee felt it was and that contact sent the kicker to the ground. I'm okay with that.
However, those who think this is not a foul at all are hearing something different from there boss than many of us because there is no question the contact causes the kicker to go to the ground before he regains his balance.
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On my worst day of officiating, I couldn't call that as a PF. That call really makes you wonder about integrity...
Have you lost your mind??? Now you are talking like the numbskull fans who automatically equate a missed call with some sort of dishonest motives. Geez........
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On my worst day of officiating, I couldn't call that as a PF. That call really makes you wonder about integrity...
Delete your post on this one maybe?
No it does not make me wonder about integrity... when i see calls like this my first thought is to look at the call from the angle of the official that called it. I give them the benefit of the doubt 1st!
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No, I haven't lost my mind. Yes...I am a fan. I'm a fan of getting it right and furthermore I'm a fan of the best of the best getting to the elite levels of officiating and getting bowl assignments based on merit. I can look at the play and think of all the vairables about position and human error...and in doing that, I could even possibly support running into the kicker. But a PF of this? Nope...can't buy it. Not from someone with this level of experience. He has to know that kickers are 25% athlete and 75% actor.
I'm open to someone explaining to me how I might be wrong...but based on what I can see and my knowledge of the rules, I can't see a PF here...with all of the benefit of the doubt. The kicker took a dive...evidenced by the poop eating grin on his face as he walks back to his seat on the end of the bench. I watched some of the World Cup last summer and between the vuvzelas and the flopping, I just couldn't take it!
I'm pretty sure that someone on my crew would have a big chunk of my backside if I blew one this big.
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Blind,
You're changing your tune a little and that's good. What was over the line was your intimation that the R was being dishonest and showed favoritism. You need to back off of that.
Best regards,
Brad
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(http://blogs.ancestry.com/uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/oscar-statue.jpg)
Ughly penalty. I hope the white cap was seriously downgraded for that blunder.
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I'm pretty sure that someone on my crew would have a big chunk of my backside if I blew one this big.
And you would be right.......................... ;D
I think it was just a blown call, period, end of sentence. Have we all had them, yeah. We learn from mistakes, hopefully others and not ours....
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On my worst day of officiating, I couldn't call that as a PF. That call really makes you wonder about integrity...
Hey Blind - hard to believe you would raise the integrity question if you really are an official. What's that saying about "He who lives in a glass house..."? Odds are you've made a mistake or two in your career equal to this. If you deny that, then I WILL question your integrity!
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(http://blogs.ancestry.com/uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/oscar-statue.jpg)
...and the Oscar goes to the PUNTER... for the biggest flop of the year!
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Hey Blind - hard to believe you would raise the integrity question if you really are an official. What's that saying about "He who lives in a glass house..."? Odds are you've made a mistake or two in your career equal to this. If you deny that, then I WILL question your integrity!
Not denying that at all. Probably made a mistake with my post. The mistake that would be forgivable is the running into the kicker call. I could stand behind that all day long...I wouldn't like it, but could take it for the team. But a PF for Roughing there? I want to believe that it was an honest mistake...but you have to admit that it is really egregious for an official at this level. I am well aware of my shortcomings and limitations, but this isn't about me and I don't work bowl games. Seems to me that these kinks should be worked out by the time a guy gets to this level? And for the record, I've also seen and been disappointed by people who did unethical things with stripes on their back. The same human element that causes us to make mistakes with our eyes can also come into play with emotions--I've seen, and I'm sure that you have also seen guys use the flag to get in a parting shot against a coach who made them mad. With all due respect to you and the avocation, it isn't out of the question is it?
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Seems to me that these kinks should be worked out by the time a guy gets to this level? And for the record, I've also seen and been disappointed by people who did unethical things with stripes on their back. The same human element that causes us to make mistakes with our eyes can also come into play with emotions--I've seen, and I'm sure that you have also seen guys use the flag to get in a parting shot against a coach who made them mad. With all due respect to you and the avocation, it isn't out of the question is it?
At the level they are working, unethical things by officials is almost unheard of. For some reason, he probably just didn't get a good look at it and when in doubt, went with roughing. Replay would show it was the wrong call, but no more than that. Suggesting otherwise should not even be discussed on this board. That is the kind of stuff that is on fan boards, and are BS even on those boards. These officials are too good, and make too much money to be unethical, but that doesn't mean that they don't make mistakes from time to time.
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Not denying that at all. Probably made a mistake with my post. The mistake that would be forgivable is the running into the kicker call. I could stand behind that all day long...I wouldn't like it, but could take it for the team. But a PF for Roughing there? I want to believe that it was an honest mistake...but you have to admit that it is really egregious for an official at this level. I am well aware of my shortcomings and limitations, but this isn't about me and I don't work bowl games. Seems to me that these kinks should be worked out by the time a guy gets to this level? And for the record, I've also seen and been disappointed by people who did unethical things with stripes on their back. The same human element that causes us to make mistakes with our eyes can also come into play with emotions--I've seen, and I'm sure that you have also seen guys use the flag to get in a parting shot against a coach who made them mad. With all due respect to you and the avocation, it isn't out of the question is it?
all I'm saying is a missed call, no matter how bad, does not begin to suggest the official is acting without integrity or unethically. That's what "fans" want to believe - the old conspiracy theorists. And, to even mention that word in this context is simply unfair especially from a fellow official.
I really don't understand the emotions some have expressed with this pure judgment call. I'm not defending it one way or the other just trying to poor water on what, in my opinion, has been way too much "fire" over this one. I can show you dozens of misses which were worst than this one, all made by top tier officials, myself included. It's just the nature of us humans.
To even hint of integrity on this play you would have to point to something else going on which would have the official say to himself "I believe it's running into but I'm going to upgrade it to roughing because ..........." with the "something else" not related to officiating. What is that "something else"? Can you think of anything without purely speculating or being one of those conspiracy freaks?
So bottom line - yes, integrity is out of the question on this one - especially because I know the official and his character - a person I would trust with everything I have!
So my point is that a call by an official, in and of itself, does not and should not give rise to even a sniff of an integrity issue by those in the know .........
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The same human element that causes us to make mistakes with our eyes can also come into play with emotions--I've seen, and I'm sure that you have also seen guys use the flag to get in a parting shot against a coach who made them mad. With all due respect to you and the avocation, it isn't out of the question is it?
I will assume those folks are no longer officiating because the only thing worse than someone who DID act like that is someone who saw it and did not do all they could to get rid of the person.
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Fair enough...it was a blown call.
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The same human element that causes us to make mistakes with our eyes can also come into play with emotions--I've seen, and I'm sure that you have also seen guys use the flag to get in a parting shot against a coach who made them mad. With all due respect to you and the avocation, it isn't out of the question is it?
I will assume those folks are no longer officiating because the only thing worse than someone who DID act like that is someone who saw it and did not do all they could to get rid of the person.
nope, they tend to call illegal stemming in bowl games.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA8CZfP4S7s
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That Big10 R sure seemingly gave quite quite the explanation, eh?
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IMO it is neither but if you're calling something it would have to be roughing per most philosophies. The contact is on the plant leg.
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It does not take much to break an ankle or pop a PCL on an inside/out hit like this. I know it doesn't look like much but it is a grounded plant leg and his knee is pushed out and ankle turned. If the punter suffered an injury on the play would it change any opinions?
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These officials are too good, and make too much money to be unethical, but that doesn't mean that they don't make mistakes from time to time.
I am not for one second questioning this official's honesty or ethics, I simply think he judged the contact a little too harshly.
However your argument that they are too good or make too much money to be unethical holds no water. See Tim Donaghy as an example of someone working at an even higher level and making even more money that got himself in trouble and took the unethical way out.
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all I'm saying is a missed call, no matter how bad, does not begin to suggest the official is acting without integrity or unethically. That's what "fans" want to believe - the old conspiracy theorists. And, to even mention that word in this context is simply unfair especially from a fellow official.
I really don't understand the emotions some have expressed with this pure judgment call. I'm not defending it one way or the other just trying to poor water on what, in my opinion, has been way too much "fire" over this one. I can show you dozens of misses which were worst than this one, all made by top tier officials, myself included. It's just the nature of us humans.
To even hint of integrity on this play you would have to point to something else going on which would have the official say to himself "I believe it's running into but I'm going to upgrade it to roughing because ..........." with the "something else" not related to officiating. What is that "something else"? Can you think of anything without purely speculating or being one of those conspiracy freaks?
So bottom line - yes, integrity is out of the question on this one - especially because I know the official and his character - a person I would trust with everything I have!
So my point is that a call by an official, in and of itself, does not and should not give rise to even a sniff of an integrity issue by those in the know .........
Right on. Enough said.
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It does not take much to break an ankle or pop a PCL on an inside/out hit like this. I know it doesn't look like much but it is a grounded plant leg and his knee is pushed out and ankle turned. If the punter suffered an injury on the play would it change any opinions?
You mean if he injured himself doing the flop? LOL
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how about this for a proposed official interpretation? If in our judgment the kicker flops/fakes, the call is downgraded one level - roughing to running into, running into to nothing. I know we have that rule allowing for a UNS but when is the last time anyone has called that?
I recall one of our colleagues in a bowl game a few years ago calling roughing when there was actually NO contact. TV showed the kicker laughing on the bench afterwards.
When I saw it live on TV and even the first replay, I would have bet everything that there was contact causing the kicker to go down hard. But, alas, the 3rd replay showed he missed him by inches. The kicker didn't even appear to flop - he's now a big time Hollywood actor! LOL
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I am not for one second questioning this official's honesty or ethics, I simply think he judged the contact a little too harshly.
However your argument that they are too good or make too much money to be unethical holds no water. See Tim Donaghy as an example of someone working at an even higher level and making even more money that got himself in trouble and took the unethical way out.
Yes, and I thought of mentioning him, but seriously, I bet you could count on one hand the officials who have been unethical and that would be with thousands who have worked at the highest levels in the past 20 years. That puts the percentage of bad guys in the .001% range. I'd say that is pretty darn good. Name another profession that is that low for the crooks at the top.
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Speaking of flops...from yesterday's Hawaii Bowl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xIrjeqsTRY&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xIrjeqsTRY&feature=youtu.be)
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Looks like he's wearing biking shorts, too
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Looks like he's wearing biking shorts, too
That's why they're called "uniforms"... everybody's wearing 'em. ;)