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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on December 28, 2011, 03:56:58 AM
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2 games yesterday and 2 onside KO's with apparent early blocks by Team A. The good news is apparently we zebras are once again the only ones who even realize something was not right. Perhaps thanks are due to commentators who perpetuate the notion that blocking Team B off of the ball is a good play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXgpi5NxdrI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXgpi5NxdrI)
http://youtu.be/ohr_2dqTbuk (http://youtu.be/ohr_2dqTbuk)
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Pretty clear Illegal Block fouls by K on both of these. On both of these plays, K gets a major advantage with the blocks by "taking out" a R player who is potentially getting in position to secure the ball. Also, pretty clear that current mechanics don't work real well when trying to identify early blocks by K since these are pretty obvious and right in the area of the ball where primary focus should be.
IMO the focus is so strong on identifying #1 - ball contact by K or R , and #2 when the ball has traveled the required 10 yards, that the illegal blocks get regularly missed. Not sure best way to address this problem, but certainly it should be stressed in the pregame discussion that K illegal blocks are just as important as ball touching and the ball going 10 yards as is shown in these two clips.
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There are 4 officials (B, U, F and S) on the two free kick restraining lines. Most onside kicks are intentionally kicked to one side or the other. Our crew handles it this way ... the two officials that are away from the direction of the ball are generally looking for illegal blocks and the two officials that are on the side where the ball is headed are looking for touching of the ball. You always need to anticipate an onside kick.
The illegal block in the 2nd game was blatant. The ball was still a couple of yards from the receiver's restraining line when the block was made.
We all need to know the rules. C'mon man.
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In the second video you also have a player from the sideline (#13) come running onto the field with on helmet to celebrate....................
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I refuse to believe guys at this level do not know this basic rule. I equally as strongly believe though that guys at any level can be looking in the wrong spot at the wrong time and miss what they should be seeing.
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I refuse to believe guys at this level do not know this basic rule. I equally as strongly believe though that guys at any level can be looking in the wrong spot at the wrong time and miss what they should be seeing.
Agreed ... we all can be looking at the wrong spot at the wrong time. Onside kicks are problematic because there are usually a lot of players all bunched up trying to recover a ball and it's tough when you're on the sideline having to look through all of that. That said, you have to pre-game this stuff and be disciplined as to where you look. Especially on the one in the second game - that block was several yards beyond the 40. Of course if all 4 officials are looking at the ball for potential touching then that illegal block is easy to miss ...
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Maybe it's time to think about moving the free kick lines 15 yards apart to spread out the carnage caused by onside kicks. Then again, if it weren't for the kicking game, ANYBODY could officiate football.
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I refuse to believe guys at this level do not know this basic rule. I equally as strongly believe though that guys at any level can be looking in the wrong spot at the wrong time and miss what they should be seeing.
I would agree that most officials know the rules regarding when it is legal to block, but we regularly see the illegal blocks that occur beyond the 10 yard restraining line missed. There appears to be a mental mindset that anything beyond the restraining line is OK, so our focus is tunnel visioned to that 10 yard "protected" area. We need to emphasize this in pregame and discuss how we can avoid overlooking these kinds of blocks.
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Change the d@mn rule! The NCAA is the only rule set with this blocking restriction. There are no special restrictions at all in FED rules on blocking on an onside kick, and in the NFL, blocks beyond the receiving team's restraining line are legal regardless of the position of the ball.
The latter is the way the play seems to be officiated even in the NCAA. I fully understand that it SHOULDN'T be, and you are asking for the the way to call the current rule. But we have seen numerous examples of it not being properly enforced by both NCAA 7 man crews as well as Texas 5 man crews.
I'm not saying improper enforcements are the only reason to change the rule, however the NCAA rule seems too restrictive in light of the other rule sets. Allow blocking beyond the restraining line.
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Blue, it is not blocking beyond the restraining lines, but blocking before they are eligible to touch the ball. In effect, you have kick catch interference by the kicking team.
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Blue, it is not blocking beyond the restraining lines, but blocking before they are eligible to touch the ball. In effect, you have kick catch interference by the kicking team.
I understand the rule, and again, it's only in the NCAA that such a rule exists.
In the NFL, you can block a receiving team player that is beyond the restraining line regardless of the position of the ball. In the NCAA, it's the position of the ball that determines whether such a block is legal or not. Take out the position of the ball as the issue, and focus on the location of the block. Allow blocks beyond the restraining line regardless of the position of the ball and the vast majority of the enforcement problems go away.
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I think in both of these videos, KCI could have easily been called.
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I think in both of these videos, KCI could have easily been called.
Rick, can't apply that here at all. There is no KCI after the ball hits the ground.
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Rick, can't apply that here at all. There is no KCI after the ball hits the ground.
You beat me to it Banker. :thumbup
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Can't let an opportunity to correct Rick pass by. They don't happen very often.
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y
Rick, can't apply that here at all. There is no KCI after the ball hits the ground.
Yeah, my bad!
Did not have my thinking cap on straight :bOW
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y
Yeah, my bad!
Did not have my thinking cap on straight :bOW
Too busy watching the blocks.
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Change the d@mn rule! The NCAA is the only rule set with this blocking restriction.
Not quite. Canadian amateur rules also forbid blocking by the kicking team.
To me, this is a mechanics issue, pure and simple. The near-side restraining-line official must have ball/touch, and the rest of the crew should have all other interactions.
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Not quite. Canadian amateur rules also forbid blocking by the kicking team.
Sorry, I never think about Canadian rules. Given that you have a 55 yard lines, 3 downs and rougues, is it really the same game? ;)
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Personally, I think the rule is OK as is, but mechanics need a hard look in the off season to see what can be altered.
One can hope that some of the crews for games coming up have seen what they might be up against mechanics wise and do a little more in their pregame.
Texas HS can alter the rule if they like to make things easier on officials.
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Hey we can get this! We doant need no steenken changes to make it "easier". ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU)
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That is a fine job. It does bring up a good point though. How many times do we hear that we shouldn't call fouls that occur all the way across the field? I personally think getting the call right is the most important thing but where do we draw the line?
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the two officials that are away from the direction of the ball are generally looking for illegal blocks and the two officials that are on the side where the ball is headed are looking for touching of the ball.
This is what we do as also and it works well. I buddy of mine working the S in a FCS playoff game came all the way across the field to confirm that they had an illegal block on an onside kick. I believe the F had a flag down as well, but much easier for the backside officials to watch for the blocks. You must see the block and then immediate find the ball if you cannot see it with your peripheral vision.
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Hey we can get this! We doant need no steenken changes to make it "easier". ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU)
It's no fair. Those guys have obviously been educated by Refstripes. The guys missing these calls need to come here to be set straight. ;D Too bad there wasn't a microphone so the announcers would know what is going on.
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Hey we can get this! We doant need no steenken changes to make it "easier". ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU)
I think that is excellent officiating. Great call on the field. Good job taking the time to explain a rule to a coach and get him off of the field.
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We have used it more than once in training sessions to show how things SHOULD be done.
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Hey we can get this! We doant need no steenken changes to make it "easier". ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU)
Gang.... I am going to have to disagree with this call. Should NOT have been a call for Illegal Blocking for this reason.
Team B (Blue) - Charges the ball as soon as it is kicked. The contact happened at the 8yd mark.
How can you expected Team A not to block someone before 10 yards when Team B is sitting on the 8 yard mark?
Team B intiated the contact and is being rewared for it, by not losing possession.
Team A recovered and should have been awarded the ball. 1 & 10 (White)
Regards
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Of course I disagree!! The rule is written to give protection to Team B players up to the point that Team A can legally touch the ball. When Team B comes forward ( as they have every right to do) to make a play on the ball, team A is not eligible to touch the ball so is not eligible to block either. This is VERY different than when Team B players come forward specifically to block Team A and keep them away from trying to recover the ball which may travel 10 yards. If Team B initiates the block, no foul on A. But if Team B is trying to play the ball, it is (AND SHOULD BE) a foul on A if they block early.
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In the second video below, it appears the F tosses his bean bag at ~1:17 mark. Before A37 recovered the kick, I didn't see any illegal touching by Team A. B31 did muff the loose ball, but that should have resulted in an "start clock" (S2) or "legal touching" (S11), not a bean bag.
What gives?
2 games yesterday and 2 onside KO's with apparent early blocks by Team A. The good news is apparently we zebras are once again the only ones who even realize something was not right. Perhaps thanks are due to commentators who perpetuate the notion that blocking Team B off of the ball is a good play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXgpi5NxdrI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXgpi5NxdrI)
http://youtu.be/ohr_2dqTbuk (http://youtu.be/ohr_2dqTbuk)
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2 choices:
1 - Like some other officials who will go nameless, he bags the spot of ANY touching, even if by Team B.
2 - He got confused and knew he had a touch and brain told him to drop the bag but did not compute that the touch was by B
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Hey we can get this! We doant need no steenken changes to make it "easier". ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU)
Great twist on that classic line! Love it TXmike.
Yes, they nailed this one.. I can only suggest coaching changes on this one.. like maybe he needs to read the rule book and instuct his players on when then can and cannot block on a free kick. He obviously didn't know.
Ref signalled correctly too.. I initially had doubts that is was S19, but that would be it. Nice job.
In case you want to see that classic line.. here's a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdZKCh6RsU
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Q2 10:32 (I believe) in Chick-Fil-A bowl last night. Not only a block before Team A is eligible to touch ball, but pretty nasty low block.
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Q2 10:32 (I believe) in Chick-Fil-A bowl last night. Not only a block before Team A is eligible to touch ball, but pretty nasty low block.
I agree. Four guys officiating the ball/touch, none officiating other action.
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The play last night
http://youtu.be/UJWDe20I_fE (http://youtu.be/UJWDe20I_fE)
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The play last night
http://youtu.be/UJWDe20I_fE (http://youtu.be/UJWDe20I_fE)
Not good. On an onside kick, we need to have offside called as a very tight plane. It looks like #27 may have been offside, but that is a tough one. Either the low block OR blocking before eligible to touch the ball should have been called, OR BOTH!!
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If that were called could we penalize 15 yards and rekick?
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Great point!!! This takes us back to the play earlier in the season where a gunner on a punt committed an act that many of us believe could have been called either of 2 fouls. I think this is a very similar deal. It could be either of two fouls although the obvious choice is the 15 yarder over the 5 yarder. SInce A was in legal possession there is no way B is going to get the ball so there will have to be a rekick.
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Great point!!! This takes us back to the play earlier in the season where a gunner on a punt committed an act that many of us believe could have been called either of 2 fouls. I think this is a very similar deal. It could be either of two fouls although the obvious choice is the 15 yarder over the 5 yarder. SInce A was in legal possession there is no way B is going to get the ball so there will have to be a rekick.
In the play you posted Mike, http://youtu.be/UJWDe20I_fE team A is not in legal possession at the end of the down, so 6-1-8 comes into play...
Any foul by team A other than KCI can be enforced from the dead ball spot. Since the illegal touching is the DBSpot, the penalty can be enforced from there in this play. Team B will have the ball, 5 yards from DBSpot if the offside was called, and 15 yards from DBSpot if the IBW was called. They will not have to have team A rekick and team B will have the ball since team A committed ILT and the subsequent dead ball belongs to team B.
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There was no illegal touch. The touch was legal as was the recovery
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There was no illegal touch. The touch was legal as was the recovery
You're correct Mike. It was not illegal touching. I was confusing team A not being able to block with not being able to touch. Since A is in legal possession at the end of the play, either foul could only be enforced from the PSpot and thus a rekick is needed. Good catch Mike!
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In my midweek call to a 5a coach this year, he told me the team he was playing onside kicked about 90% of the time. He told me that he was going to have his front five stand just across the fifty and when the kick was made have them step across the fifty and not move. When they were hit by the kicking team, he expected us to throw a flag and give his team the ball.
I told him we would watch for this play and call it as appropriate but that his team would have to recover to get the ball if there was no first touching by the kicking team.
BTW: He never did this in the game.
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That was flawless execution of the kick. The kicker stubbed the ball down and got just enough forward force such that the ball bounced along at the same speed as the kicker ran. Consequently, the ball and kicker got to the A-40 at the same time. Hey Atlanta Blue, was that kicker one of your pupils?
I think one of the major obstacles in accurately applying 6-1-2-g is the calling official has to see two events more or less simultaneously - a Team A player blocking a B player and the location of the ball or who touched it. Those make the call doubly difficult.
Do most conferences still have their crews officiate Team B players on free kicks? I'm thinking that officiating Team A players might be a better mechanic, especially during obvious onside kick situations. Also, I wondering if the B & U ought to come onto the field of play as soon as the ball is kick. That might give them a better angle to see blocks and the ball in same field of vision.
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That was flawless execution of the kick. The kicker stubbed the ball down and got just enough forward force such that the ball bounced along at the same speed as the kicker ran. Consequently, the ball and kicker got to the A-40 at the same time. Hey Atlanta Blue, was that kicker one of your pupils?
No, he's from Florida, but ironically, both my kicker and I met and talked with him on Tuesday of this past week. My kicker was playing in a post season All Star game, and we took them to see Auburn's practice in the Dome. Being drawn to kickers, and with kickers having more "free time" during practice, we had time to meet and talk with him. Real nice kid, and yes, he did a great job on this kick. That was a very difficult kick to get that kind of control and timing, and was very well done.
As for the offside call, when seen in slow motion, maybe so, but in real time, that was so close you would never see it. The contact on the blocks is before the ball goes 10 yards, clear in slow motion, but again, close and near impossible to see in real time.
But the BBW was clear as day. If nothing else, there should have been a flag on that one.
I was working as the Official Scorer for that game last night. The kick caught everyone by surprise, and came very quickly after the RFP. On the next kick, immediately after the RFP, the kicker ran forward with the team still huddling and faked like he was going to kick it. I'm GUESSING he had the green light to do so if UVA wasn't paying attention, but they were, so he pulled up at the line, and Auburn went to a "regular" kick formation.
You name it, we had it last night, including two blocked punts, one out of the back of the end zone. It was a wild one.
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Actually the offside was obvious at the get go. Guys in the "meeting room" were calling for it before there was even a replay shown. On onside and pooch kicks there is NO tolerance for breaking the plane before kicked. Hard to see how the official on that side could have even seen the kicker when the ball was kicked (which is a clue).
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Great twist on that classic line! Love it TXmike.
Yes, they nailed this one.. I can only suggest coaching changes on this one.. like maybe he needs to read the rule book and instuct his players on when then can and cannot block on a free kick. He obviously didn't know.
Ref signalled correctly too.. I initially had doubts that is was S19, but that would be it. Nice job.
In case you want to see that classic line.. here's a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdZKCh6RsU
This video is from my crew a couple of years ago. Great call by some good officials. And believe it or not, I knew the signal!