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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on January 01, 2012, 06:55:38 PM
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I can see if we are bagging a momentum exception spot but why would we bag it once the ball has been brought out of the EZ?
http://youtu.be/F5m4STEQYVU (http://youtu.be/F5m4STEQYVU)
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Actually, you can see in the last view, he drops the bag while the runner is still in the end zone. Admittedly, when the bag was dropped the runner was definitely going to exit the end zone. I think the official just wanted to ensure he had the momentum spot marked so he wouldn't get downgraded.
best regards,
Brad
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Give the guy a break for some reaction time! It's not like he had his bean bag in his hand like he would for a punt. He had to see the INT, then reach and find his bag, pull it, and get it down. I think he got it done ABOUT the time the runner comes out of the EZ. Once he had it pulled and in his hand, I can't see hanging on to it.
At least his had a purpose. I've seen HS and college officials bag INT spots in the middle of the field. Sorry, not until you get to the NFL!
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Sorry, not until you get to the NFL!
Why does NFL want interception spots bagged? I'm lazy and won't look it up in the rule book :)
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Why does NFL want interception spots bagged? I'm lazy and won't look it up in the rule book :)
It's used as a potential enforcement spot. For example:
If Team A commits a personal foul/unsportsmanlike conduct prior to an interception, and Team B subsequently loses possession of the ball, the penalty will be enforced from the spot of the interception and Team B keeps possession of the ball.
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It is all about developing good habits. "See momentum- mark momentum". If we get sloppy and say "oh, it isn't necessary because he is going to bring it out" then we don't make this ingrained in our officiating tool kit.
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It is all about developing good habits. "See momentum- mark momentum". If we get sloppy and say "oh, it isn't necessary because he is going to bring it out" then we don't make this ingrained in our officiating tool kit.
Not at all a bad or incorrect thing to go ahead and drop the spot marker. That's what a good official would do (or would want to do). But, I submit that the great official will make a mental note of the spot, and will drop the marker when (and where) it is needed, i.e., when the BC goes down in the EZ. If the BC runs it out, then he doesn't drop the marker, since it isn't needed.
If 'habits' are being preprared for whatever eventuality a play may bring, then, I concur - developing good habits is a good thing. However, too many folks develop habits based on how they expect plays to be executed, and they tend to react with their 'habit' even when the play turns out differently. For example, so, so many good back judges have accepted the habit of holding their bean bag in hand on punts, with the expectation of dropping it at the end of the kick. Then, when there is a KCI foul, they 'habitually' (incorrectly) toss the bean bag. Then, realizing they need a flag, they scramble to get their flag out. Meanwhile, the ball gets recovered by a receiving team player who begins an advance. Still reviewing in their minds the KCI/bean bag/flag thing, they fail to get the bean bag down at the true end of the kick (even if they have a second bag). Whereas, had they left their throwing hands free, they could have selected the appropriate tool at the right time, and would not have been scrambling (physically or mentally) to do anything.
If 'habit' is to run through the various probable scenarios in your mind prior to a play and remind yourself what you should do in each scenario, that is being prepared, and being prepared is, indeed, a good habit.
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My comments in red.
But, I submit that the great official will make a mental note of the spot, and will drop the marker when (and where) it is needed, i.e., when the BC goes down in the EZ. If the BC runs it out, then he doesn't drop the marker, since it isn't needed.
I disagree with this part. A supervisor is going to want the bag down for momentum so he knows you have the momentum rule. If one should be on the ground, and is not, the grader of your game is going to give you an IM (incorrect mechanic) if you did not put one down. Now, I suppose if you put in your game report notes that you had momentum, but didn't put a flag down cuz he ran the ball out, you wouldn't get the IM, but that still doesn't tell your supervisor or any coaches what you would have ruled if he had downed the ball.
For example, so, so many good back judges have accepted the habit of holding their bean bag in hand on punts, with the expectation of dropping it at the end of the kick. Then, when there is a KCI foul, they 'habitually' (incorrectly) toss the bean bag. Then, realizing they need a flag, they scramble to get their flag out. Whereas, had they left their throwing hands free, they could have selected the appropriate tool at the right time, and would not have been scrambling (physically or mentally) to do anything.
This is why when I work B, I hold my bag in my left, "non flag throwing" hand. End of kick, left hand bag toss, KCI is right hand and flag toss.
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My comments in red.
I disagree with this part. A supervisor is going to want the bag down for momentum so he knows you have the momentum rule. If one should be on the ground, and is not, the grader of your game is going to give you an IM (incorrect mechanic) if you did not put one down. Now, I suppose if you put in your game report notes that you had momentum, but didn't put a flag down cuz he ran the ball out, you wouldn't get the IM, but that still doesn't tell your supervisor or any coaches what you would have ruled if he had downed the ball.
**************Do what your coordinator tells you, but not all want/need to see a bag down when it isn't needed. Sure, if a spot is supposed to be marked, and it isn't, you may get a "comment" (if you don't get yourself and your crew in trouble for an incorrect penalty enforcement). But it can't be an incorrect mechanic if there is no spot to mark, which would be the case if the BC ran it out. Just like dropping a bag at the spot of a fair catch - not necessary. The EOK and the dead-ball spot are one and the same - no need to mark that with a bag, because the sideline guys have that as progress. The EOK need be marked only if the ball remains alive after the catch/recovery. No one will unduly criticize a good official for dropping an unnecessary bag. But the guy that knows and recognizes the difference on the field, and reacts appropriately, may be put in the 'great' category. (And I ain't saying I'm in either one).
This is why when I work B, I hold my bag in my left, "non flag throwing" hand. End of kick, left hand bag toss, KCI is right hand and flag toss.
*****************And when it takes the extra 1 1/2 - 2 seconds to get your whistle to your mouth and sound it, you have an aggressive blocker draw a foul for a late block that quite possibly could have been prevented with a timely whistle. The best of all worlds is to hold your lanyard whistle in your non-throwing hand, keep your throwing hand free, and employ the appropriate tool at the appropriate time (with both arms free to make the appropriate complete and timely signal at the appropriate time).
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You have a good point but what I do wiith my whistle I this. It is normally in in my nonthrowing hand but on punts it is my throwing hand cuz my bag is in my nonthrowing hand. Fair catch I still put a bag down in case I have to move for some reason. The last thing you want is a quick whistle on a punt cuz if he doesn't secure it and muffs it hEaDbAnG. As you so astutely stated there are many ways to do it you just need to make sure you have all your bases covered
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Not at all a bad or incorrect thing to go ahead and drop the spot marker. That's what a good official would do (or would want to do). But, I submit that the great official will make a mental note of the spot, and will drop the marker when (and where) it is needed, i.e., when the BC goes down in the EZ. If the BC runs it out, then he doesn't drop the marker, since it isn't needed.
By this logic, should we refrain from dropping the bag on a fumble unless we see that there's a flag down (or the ball go forward and OOB, or recovered on fourth down by an A player who wasn't the fumbler)?
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By this logic, should we refrain from dropping the bag on a fumble unless we see that there's a flag down (or the ball go forward and OOB, or recovered on fourth down by an A player who wasn't the fumbler)?
You could. If you can pull that off without error, you'd be the best of the best. For this purpose, the biggest difference between a fumble and a momentum situation is time and distance. The momentum thing will happen in a short period of time, and in a limited space, and you shouldn't have too much trouble mentally noting the spot of the catch/recovery. However, on a fumble, the time/distance factors are far too variable and unpredictable. Besides, getting a bag down on a fumble also tells everyone in real time that you saw a FUMBLE (or a backward pass), versus a forward pass, or versus a player down before the loose ball.
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You could. If you can pull that off without error, you'd be the best of the best. For this purpose, the biggest difference between a fumble and a momentum situation is time and distance. The momentum thing will happen in a short period of time, and in a limited space, and you shouldn't have too much trouble mentally noting the spot of the catch/recovery. However, on a fumble, the time/distance factors are far too variable and unpredictable. Besides, getting a bag down on a fumble also tells everyone in real time that you saw a FUMBLE (or a backward pass), versus a forward pass, or versus a player down before the loose ball.
I prefer a bag down when there is potential momentum unless he's already out of the EZ before you've had a chance to toss your bag. Suppose the interceptor runs around in the EZ for awhile and then decides to stay there? Might be hard to then get an accurate spot.
There's zero downside to marking that spot in an unhurried manner followed by the ball carrier subsequently runing out of the EZ.
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I think our point is that in some situations where there is a "bang-bang", the bag is not needed. Obviously of the ME applies and the guy is running around in the EZ you ant to get the bag out and down even if you reacted late. But if you reacted late and then realize you are dropping the bag as the guy is already out of there, why not just grip a bit harder and not release?
Runner fumbles as he is going to the ground and before you can get the bag deployed, he has clearly fallen on the ball and wrapped it up. Why bag the fumble there? The play is already dead and nothing is gained by bagging late. There are other examples I am sure but the bottom line is that sometimes a "late bag" is not needed. If we are thinking and not just acting like robots out there, we know when that is.
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Absolutely concur there is no real downside to getting the bag down. But, just think how cool you'd look if you knew the spot was the B-2 1/2, and, when the BC goes down in the EZ, you calmly walk up to the B-2 1/2 and signal time out and mark the spot with your foot and signal the new direction - no bag needed at all. But, getting the right spot is, indeed, the risk.
I prefer a bag down when there is potential momentum unless he's already out of the EZ before you've had a chance to toss your bag. Suppose the interceptor runs around in the EZ for awhile and then decides to stay there? Might be hard to then get an accurate spot.
There's zero downside to marking that spot in an unhurried manner followed by the ball carrier subsequently runing out of the EZ.
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But if you reacted late and then realize you are dropping the bag as the guy is already out of there, why not just grip a bit harder and not release?
Because there is ZERO downside to dropping it.
Runner fumbles as he is going to the ground and before you can get the bag deployed, he has clearly fallen on the ball and wrapped it up. Why bag the fumble there?
Because there are others that use that bag to note there WAS a fumble. NFL officials will ALWAYS drop a bag, even if it's obvious it's recovered, because it shows on film what happened.
Now, if we could only get officials to actually drop the bag on the line where the fumbles or INTs happen.....
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I know the crew is coming from the Big XII Conference, but does anyone know who is the R is? I guessing safely Scott Novak would draw the assignment.
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I know the crew is coming from the Big XII Conference, but does anyone know who is the R is? I guessing safely Scott Novak would draw the assignment.
Edit: I don't know if the names were correct that were listed, but for the sake of safety, we will wait to release the names until after the game.
I was posting the names of the officials involved in the game regarding the dropping of the bean bag.
If the post was now discussing another crew, then those names were not correct.
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Pretty sure that's incorrect since they are MAC officials and that exact crew already worked the Music City Bowl. Wiki shows Novak as the R.
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Pretty sure that's incorrect since they are MAC officials and that exact crew already worked the Music City Bowl. Wiki shows Novak as the R.
I thought that was the game we were discussing in this post. The officials I posted were those involved with the bean bag play above.
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Edit: I don't know if the names were correct that were listed, but for the sake of safety, we will wait to release the names until after the game.
I was posting the names of the officials involved in the game regarding the dropping of the bean bag.
If the post was now discussing another crew, then those names were not correct.
michstripes changed the subject on you. :D
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IMO, bean bags and signals are two of the most important communication techniques available to officials. In the case of putting down a bean bag in all cases of momentum, we let the coaches, fans, announcers (the ones that understand the mechanic) and other officials know that we have momentum. It may or may not be important, but we have done what we should do. What happens if we don't throw a bean bag and the player fumbles the ball out of the end zone and it goes out of bounds at the 3. What is the result? Did it matter that the play started with a momentum exception? Does it matter when you explain the play to the coach starting with "Your player caught the ball at the 3 and his momentum carried him into the end zone...."? If the coach interrupts you and asks why there wasnt a beanbag, how do you answer? How about the non-calling official explaining what happened to the coach (or just trying to make sure the crew doesnt mess up a penalty enforcement), if he says a bean bag down at the 3, he knows there was either probably a momentum exception (there are other possibilities of course).
In another string, the discussion was about whether to wind or not on plays near the sidelines. Obviously, we don't want to wind before we stop the clock with a few seconds left. However, at all other times, it provides useful information to everyone else.
How about signalling a pass as backwards? Until recently, it was considered "unnecessary". However, it provides positive information that an official ruled the pass as backwards.
Last but not least, some officials will not signal a TD if a receiver commits OPI and then catches a pass in the end zone. They will just stop the clock at the end of the play and report the penalty to the referee. A simple TD signal would signal would let everyone know the initial result of the play. This would create less confusion. Imagine if the receiver in the Virginia Tech - Michigan game had pushed off and all the official did was kill the clock and then report the penalty to the referee. How silly would that look?
This is obviously a sore point with me. I stand by for the whooping that will surely follow.
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No whooping from me, I'm in 100% agreement. Of course, the officials here don't think I know anything about it!
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Of course, the officials here don't think I know anything about it!
We all can't be BCS-grade officials. But don't beat yourself too much. I have it from a very reliable & knowledgable source that you are one of the best kicking coaches in the Southeast. ;D
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If the coach interrupts you and asks why there wasnt a beanbag, how do you answer?
How would I answer? "I didn't need it, coach."
Do you challenge your plumber on what tool(s) he used to fix your water closet?
Do you challenge your electrician on what tool(s) he used to fix your light fixture?
Do you challenge your mechanic on what tool(s) he used to repair your car?
I hope you answer 'No' to those questions. I can't imagine any service person willingly working for you otherwise (at least not more than once).
Assuming you answer 'No,' then why would you allow a coach to challenge how you perform your job? It is none of his business why you did or did not drop a bag. Your coordinator or other officiating boss may rightfully inquire, but a coach is not your boss, and has no right to that question, or answer. Bean bags, flags, whistles, etc. are our tools, for our use when we need them. If they are helpful to teams and spectators - fine. But they have no right of expectation as to how we employ them.
Like I said before, it is not at all wrong or bad to drop a bag for momentum. By all means, do it if you feel that is best for you. I probably would/will, too. But, the great auto mechanic doesn't need a computer analyzer to diagnose bad injectors - he knows it, and he fixes the problem with the right, and minimum number, of tools. The great offiicial may mentally note the spot of the catch/recovery in a possible momentum situation, and, if it truly turns into momentum, he just marks the dead-ball spot - even if the ball is fumbled forward and OB by the BC from the EZ. Observe, process, and rule. If you need a bag, use it. But you don't have to, if you don't need it.
Ask a great auto mechanic why he didn't use a box-end wrench instead of an open-end wrench to fix your car, and you are likely get a wrench some place uncomfortable. A mechanic isn't going to be afraid of a car owner. Why are we so afraid of coaches? They are not our enemies, but they are not our bosses, either. We are equals on the field, neither superior nor inferior. Treat them with respect, and demand respect in return.
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How would I answer? "I didn't need it, coach."
Do you challenge your plumber on what tool(s) he used to fix your water closet?
Do you challenge your electrician on what tool(s) he used to fix your light fixture?
Do you challenge your mechanic on what tool(s) he used to repair your car?
I hope you answer 'No' to those questions. I can't imagine any service person willingly working for you otherwise (at least not more than once).
Assuming you answer 'No,' then why would you allow a coach to challenge how you perform your job? It is none of his business why you did or did not drop a bag. Your coordinator or other officiating boss may rightfully inquire, but a coach is not your boss, and has no right to that question, or answer. Bean bags, flags, whistles, etc. are our tools, for our use when we need them. If they are helpful to teams and spectators - fine. But they have no right of expectation as to how we employ them.
Like I said before, it is not at all wrong or bad to drop a bag for momentum. By all means, do it if you feel that is best for you. I probably would/will, too. But, the great auto mechanic doesn't need a computer analyzer to diagnose bad injectors - he knows it, and he fixes the problem with the right, and minimum number, of tools. The great offiicial may mentally note the spot of the catch/recovery in a possible momentum situation, and, if it truly turns into momentum, he just marks the dead-ball spot - even if the ball is fumbled forward and OB by the BC from the EZ. Observe, process, and rule. If you need a bag, use it. But you don't have to, if you don't need it.
Ask a great auto mechanic why he didn't use a box-end wrench instead of an open-end wrench to fix your car, and you are likely get a wrench some place uncomfortable. A mechanic isn't going to be afraid of a car owner. Why are we so afraid of coaches? They are not our enemies, but they are not our bosses, either. We are equals on the field, neither superior nor inferior. Treat them with respect, and demand respect in return.
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Everything you say is valid. If in fact a coach is "challenging" what I say, my reaction would probably much different than if the coach is trying to make sure the officiating crew is indeed enforcing the rules correctly . I would assume that we as officials dont think we are perfect and all coaches are not worthy of appropriately questioning our performance/rule interpretation. I have often been told that i must learn to communicate effectively with coaches. Answering an honest question with an honest answer is made much easier if we as officials follow the mechanics and everyone involved knows what is going on. Why do we need to pause the game so the non-calling officials can determine what happened when a bean bag down would have told everyone that momentum was in play. In some cases, a simple signal could prevent a problem that we cant fix with an explanation. My example for that is the non-wind by the wing official in the Wisconsin game. No damage would have been done by winding the clock in that situation to let everyone (including other officials) know that the calling official had forward progress stopped in bounds. Had he wound the clock, everyone watching would know what he was ruling. An informed group is typically better off. Did the umpire wind the clock because he thought the ball was clearly out of bounds and the wing official either neglected to stop the clock because he had a brain fart (not likely) or did he stop the clock because he wasnt sure what was going on and did not want the clock to keep rolling? It would have hurt nothing in this case to wind the clock so why not? Does it matter that we can explain it later? Maybe, but why not make sure everyone knows what is going on? I sometimes wonder if the answer is that we feel like we are the experts and dont really care if the non-experts understand the nuances of not dropping a beanbag solely because we (the officials) decided it wasnt necessary.