RefStripes.com
Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on January 03, 2012, 08:40:40 AM
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He is irked at some of the calls yesterday:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/badgers/bielema-vexed-by-a-few-of-officials-calls-5q3lanh-136556583.html (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/badgers/bielema-vexed-by-a-few-of-officials-calls-5q3lanh-136556583.html)
Video of the "out of bounds" play. http://youtu.be/AbtuthAsZNA (http://youtu.be/AbtuthAsZNA)
Looks like clock should have continued to run although the U's quick clok stop signal may have stopped it momentarily.
Don't have the KO to the EZ play right now but when discussed among the refstripes "experts" yesterday, there was consensus the ball was never brought out of the EZ and was properly declared a touchback. Not as much consensus on IR reviewability of the play.
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First thing he should worry about is end-of-the-game clock management.
Just saying.........
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What I thought lead to confusion is the U's short quick stopping the clock signal. I can see if he is mirroring the wing, but the wing did not stop the clock, right? I have noticed during bowl season some conferences wind when near the sideline and some do not wind at all. This is one situation where the wind might of cleared the situation up?? If that play is covered by ten different wing officials I bet it's half and half on stop or wind.
On the EZ play, I too thought the L made the correct call. Contrast his position at the GL with that of the SEC crew in the Tostitos Bowl, the L vacated the GL real early. Which also brings up an observation, on the Stanford play at the GL on the kick where the Stanford player tackled his own player to keep him in the EZ, the R was in the middle of the EZ not at the GL, and he did the same thing on other KOs. I have no clue if this was right but it seemed off especially on the close play at the GL where he had to hurry to the GL to make the ruling.
On the last play in the Rose Bowl, could/should they of reviewed the long pass play? There were clearly 3 seconds on the clock when the runner was down, that one second would of been huge on the last play.
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I think the two pylon officials have responsibility for the goal line.
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I thought this was one of the best officiated games so far this bowl season. These ACC officials had a very good game and one of the best I've ever seen from an ACC crew.
The player who was seemingly knocked out of bounds was hit from the front. He was driven backwards and OB which, mechanically, we would want a wind, but the wing official was taken out on this play.
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I thought this was one of the best officiated games so far this bowl season. These ACC officials had a very good game and one of the best I've ever seen from an ACC crew.
The player who was seemingly knocked out of bounds was hit from the front. He was driven backwards and OB which, mechanically, we would want a wind, but the wing official was taken out on this play.
As Birddog noted in an earlier post, there have been several bowl games where the wind on plays ending inbounds but near the sideline was apparently not being used. Are there some conferences where the use of the inbounds wind is not standard practice?
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One of the reasons I hate "floating" as an H. Really gets you in the way in a play like this.
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I thought the CCA was going to eliminate it but apparently they were unable to as some conferences insist on winding still. The only argument I can see to have the wind is that if schools are used to officials who do that and then get a crew from a place where they do not, it might cause some confusion. But even if it is decided to wind before stopping, shouldn't that be modified in time critical situations so you do not lose an extra second with the wind before you stop it?
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I thought this was one of the best officiated games so far this bowl season. These ACC officials had a very good game and one of the best I've ever seen from an ACC crew.
Although a little biased, I have to agree 100%... Great job guys !!
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The only beef he maybe has is the end of the first half. Once the clock stopped (killed by the U?) when it was the intent of the wing guy to not stop it, there should have been communication to someone that the clock will run and ask if they want to use their TO. As soon as coaches/players see the clock stopped on a play like that they are off to focus on other things and certainly do not expect the clock to restart out of nowhere.
I like the wind mechanic by wing guys on plays like this, especially if short of the first down- what's the harm?
I thought the mechanics on the last two plays of the game were outstanding.
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I thought the CCA was going to eliminate it but apparently they were unable to as some conferences insist on winding still. The only argument I can see to have the wind is that if schools are used to officials who do that and then get a crew from a place where they do not, it might cause some confusion. But even if it is decided to wind before stopping, shouldn't that be modified in time critical situations so you do not lose an extra second with the wind before you stop it?
There were a lot of things the CCA is/was supposed to do in the the interest of "standardization" of mechanics that haven't happened. We still have a lot of the "when in Rome" philosophy being practiced.
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There were a lot of things the CCA is/was supposed to do in the the interest of "standardization" of mechanics that haven't happened. We still have a lot of the "when in Rome" philosophy being practiced.
We switched from winding to not winding mid-season despite some of us arguing as hard as we could to keep the winding mechanic - it's a good communication to all what is going to happen with the clock. I don't believe the NFL winds but they have different clock rules and that might be the reason.
The only argument for not winding we heard was you might lose a second or two when there's only 2-3 seconds left. BUT this play is the poster child for the mechanic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was at the game in the stands and it sure looked like he went OB knocking into the official. I then saw the U kill the clock. I looked away (I guess exactly what the coach did as well) so did not see who wound it or when, in fact didn't realize it was started until my friend (non official) pointed that out. I told him he was crazy because when stopped for going OB it doesn't start until the snap. But he insisted it restarted. So I then thought it was a clock operator error, but then the TO was announced and I was totally confused as to what happened.
And, of course, everyone around me wanted to know from me what was going on but I had no clue.
I've now seen the replays. It does not appear to me that forward progress was stopped in the field of play especially at that point in the game.
If the wind mechanic had been used, I'm sure the U would not have stopped the clock as he did in this case.
First game I've attended as a fan in over 20 years! Boy, you sure can't tell how the crew is doing from the stands other then general positioning and coverage. This ACC crew looked great in that respect but the "films will tell all."
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The NFL does wind when a guy is driven out of bounds and forward progress is stopped in the field of play. They are quite liberal with this mechanic.
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The NFL does wind when a guy is driven out of bounds and forward progress is stopped in the field of play. They are quite liberal with this mechanic.
that's what I thought so why aren't we doing it like before! I just assumed it was the NFL influence.
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I have never understood the need for winding when the clock is already running. The wind signal is for starting the clock. It appears to be a wasted motion all the time not only when time is short.
Except for those taught that mechanic why would anybody want to wind a running clock?
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I have never understood the need for winding when the clock is already running. The wind signal is for starting the clock. It appears to be a wasted motion all the time not only when time is short.
Except for those taught that mechanic why would anybody want to wind a running clock?
good thought except when there's a near the sideline first down type play which was not the case here.
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I thought this was one of the best officiated games so far this bowl season. These ACC officials had a very good game and one of the best I've ever seen from an ACC crew.
REPLY: pgh guy...I agree. I called a friend last night when the game ended. He hadn't seen it. He has a friend who works in the ACC (did the Alamo Bowl). I told him that the crew had a terrific game.
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...why would anybody want to wind a running clock?
It's called communication, and it's a great tool to help keep you out of the soup. Why wouldn't you want to communicate when given the option?
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The absence of "communication" can be communication as well, as in, if I DON'T signal for the clock to stop, it will run.
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Yeah, but people are idiots and it helps to be able to say "did ya see the guy stood five yards away spinning his arm round?"
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The absence of "communication" can be communication as well, as in, if I DON'T signal for the clock to stop, it will run.
...or as in, if your wife starts giving you the silent treatment you know she's mad.... you just might not know why. It might not change the outcome, but wouldn't it be better if she just told you why you were in the doghouse?
I'm of the opinion one shouldn't go looking for trouble. Plenty will find you without much effort. That said, I really have a hard time understanding why winding is such a problem for some. It's no big deal and merely reinforces the clock status in tight sideline situations for everyone to see. It eliminates any notion of uncertainty.
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I can probably shed a bit of light on some of the questions raised. First, I agree, overall it was a good game that was well officiated and fun to watch. I'm sure the crew is tired after all that scoring!
that's what I thought so why aren't we doing it like before! I just assumed it was the NFL influence.
A few years back, at a crucial point in an ACC conference game, the wind signal was given incorrectly (and, unfortunately mirrored by another official) and the team with the ball lost crucial seconds that should not have been lost. The supervisor said, "no more winding when near the sideline"...When in Rome...
...could/should they of reviewed the long pass play? There were clearly 3 seconds on the clock when the runner was down, that one second would of been huge on the last play.
I may be wrong here but if the game clock did not expire, it is not reviewable with respect to the clock, especially if the team does not have any timeouts. Granted, we're not talking 5 or 7 seconds here, which might be 'egregious'. One or two seconds would not buy a replay.
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I've been trying to find a way to "bail out" the U. Could he have seen the H start to give S3 (0:12) and simply started to mirror while dead ball officiating?
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Regarding the final play of the Rose Bowl. Does the line need to be set for one second?If yes, does that mean the ball could not legally be snapped until one second remaing? My handle is there for a reason, but at least I know that I don't know, unlike 90+% of the fans.
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Regarding the final play of the Rose Bowl. Does the line need to be set for one second?If yes, does that mean the ball could not legally be snapped until one second remaing? My handle is there for a reason, but at least I know that I don't know, unlike 90+% of the fans.
All that is required is they be set for 1 second before the ball can be snapped. You can see that the Umpire was up over the ball for more than a second waiting on the Referee to start the clock. The "being set" rule doesn't mean they have to hold being set for 1 second to run off the game clock.
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Thanks for the info.
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All that is required is they be set for 1 second before the ball can be snapped. You can see that the Umpire was up over the ball for more than a second waiting on the Referee to start the clock. The "being set" rule doesn't mean they have to hold being set for 1 second to run off the game clock.
Not quite accurate. The one second set rule only applies if there is a huddle or shift AFTER the ball is declared ready for play. In this case, since the team was set the instant the ball was made ready for play, there is no "one second" requirement, and the ball could be snapped instantly.
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The one second set rule only applies if there is a huddle or shift AFTER the ball is declared ready for play. In this case, since the team was set the instant the ball was made ready for play, there is no "one second" requirement, and the ball could be snapped instantly.
Isn't that redundant? By definition, "shifts" and "huddles" do NOT exist until the ball is made RFP. ;D
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Not quite accurate. The one second set rule only applies if there is a huddle or shift AFTER the ball is declared ready for play. In this case, since the team was set the instant the ball was made ready for play, there is no "one second" requirement, and the ball could be snapped instantly.
I don't believe that is correct for 2011-2012 rules. Rule 7-1-2-b-5 was added this year and reads pretty clearly IMO. It reads that it is a false start if the requirement is not satisfied:
7-1-2-b-5. The offensive team never coming to a one-second stop prior to the snap after the ball is ready for play (A.R. 7-1-2-IV).
And AR 7-1-2-IV IMO describes the case play verbatim:
Team A is in a no-huddle offense and is moving to the line when the ball is made ready for play. Although some players settle into their positions and stop, at least one player never stops and is still moving when the ball is snapped.
RULING: Dead-ball foul--false start, since Team A never satisfied the one-second rule before the snap. Officials should shut the play down and penalize Team A five yards.
Starting this year even the rulebook itself refers to this as the "one-second rule" and it applies even when there is no huddle or shift.
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We discussed this earlier: http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=8358.0 (http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=8358.0)
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Agreed that this was discussed earlier this year and although there were comments that some of us were "mis-reading" the new rule, the play being discussed is virtually identical to the case play in the book which says shut the play down and flag it as a false start.
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... the play being discussed is virtually identical to the case play in the book which says shut the play down and flag it as a false start.
No, the AR is different from the play on the table.
The AR reads, "Team A is in a no-huddle offense and is moving to the line when the ball is made ready for play. Although some players settle into their positions and stop, at least one player never stops and is still moving when the ball is snapped.
RULING: Dead-ball foul--false start, since Team A never satisfied the one-second rule before the snap. Officials should shut the play down and penalize Team A five yards."
Note the AR says that Team A is moving at the RFP. That translates to Team A is shifting after the RFP. According to 7-1-2-a, all Team A players must stop of a 1 sec prior to the snap. The AR goes on to state that one Team A player never stopped before the snap - wa la, false start.
In the final play from the Rose Bowl, Team A was not moving immediately before or during the snap; hence, no shift and no foul.
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This rule change was made in part due to several plays during the 2010 season bowl games. The 2011 RR memo and the actual rule wording does not include the "huddle/shift" language as was standard in this situation prior to 2011. Where do we get the interpretation that the old "huddle/shift" language still applies here when the RR memo, the rule, and the AR all very clearly read that the offensive team must be stopped for 1 second after the RFP? There is no "after a shift" or any other language in the 2011 rule.
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From Redding's bulletin addressing the rule change:
ILLEGAL SHIFT: POSSIBLE FALSE START
The definition of a shift has remained unchanged for many years. A shift occurs when two or more Team A players change their position or stance after the ball is ready for play before the snap. The shift ends when all players stop and remain motionless for one full second.
This definition allows us to distinguish two kinds of illegal shift. One kind is when the offensive team is in the midst of a shift when the ball is made ready for play and never comes to a one-second stop before the snap. The other is when the shift starts after the ball is ready for play—that is, sometime after the ball is ready for play Team A satisfies the one-second rule and then executes a shift that is still continuing at the snap.
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I don't know how this could be made much clearer, if there is no movement during or after the RFP signal, there is no shift. If there is no shift there is no foul for snapping before 1 second AFTER the RFP. As I said when we went through this before....your position would make it impossible for a team to legally get a play off if there was 1 second left on the clock and clock starting on the RFP signal. If that was the case, the rules would certainly make clear we should just call the game over since there is no way Team A could start a play.