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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: bama_stripes on February 09, 2012, 02:48:08 PM
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http://www.nfhs.org/content.aspx?id=6588
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A few notes of interest.
As to the receiver having to land inbounds to complete a catch, this does not preclude the receiver being wraped and then carried OOB. Forward progress could still be in play.
Requiring at least four K players on each side of the ball when free-kicked failed by one vote.
Eliminating LOD on OPI failed by one vote.
Horse collar was changed to include being pulled sideward.
I understand there are changes to the manual - one will be eliminating the requirement to bring captains out prior to the second half kickoff. I do not know if placing the U under the post is happening or not.
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A few notes of interest.
As to the receiver having to land inbounds to complete a catch, this does not preclude the receiver being wraped and then carried OOB. Forward progress could still be in play.
Requiring at least four K players on each side of the ball when free-kicked failed by one vote.
Eliminating LOD on OPI failed by one vote.
Horse collar was changed to include being pulled sideward.
I understand there are changes to the manual - one will be eliminating the requirement to bring captains out prior to the second half kickoff. I do not know if placing the U under the post is happening or not.
The current horse collar rule doesn't specify what direction the runner has to be pulled so he could be pulled forward, backward or sideways and be a foul. Is the new rule backward and sideward only? If yes that is a minor improvement.
Thanks for sharing the information about the other votes but I don't believe that information is supposed to be shared publicly.
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Horse collar - yes, as described to me the terms 'backward or sideward' were added to the rule presumably taking being pulled forward out consideration for a foul. This rewording may be to simply coordinate the rules with casebook plays that already exist.
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A few notes of interest.
As to the receiver having to land inbounds to complete a catch, this does not preclude the receiver being wraped and then carried OOB. Forward progress could still be in play.
Requiring at least four K players on each side of the ball when free-kicked failed by one vote.
Eliminating LOD on OPI failed by one vote.
Horse collar was changed to include being pulled sideward.
I understand there are changes to the manual - one will be eliminating the requirement to bring captains out prior to the second half kickoff. I do not know if placing the U under the post is happening or not.
I'd really like to strangle the ones who voted to keep the rule the same for loss of down on OPI. That and no yardage penalty on KCI top my list of stupid HS rules. IP is a close third.
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Horse collar - yes, as described to me the terms 'backward or sideward' were added to the rule presumably taking being pulled forward out consideration for a foul. This rewording may be to simply coordinate the rules with casebook plays that already exist.
The issue is the case book had nothing about PULLING a player forward. It only mentioned a player FALLING forward. I've seen horse collar fouls correctly called because a defender caught a runner from behind, used that leverage to get beside or in front of him and then throw him forward. That is not why the horse collar rule was originally developed. This change at least removes one of the cheap fouls allowed by the previous ruling.
I still think the horse collar rule is too liberal. The primary safety issue is the runner in the open field getting grabbed from behind and immediately pulled down backward. That's the extent of the foul at the NFL and NCAA level but the HS rule includes too many other scenarios. I have no problem calling it as it's defined. I just see too many tackles that are not safety issues but result in 15-yard penalties against the defense. It's another example of the NFHS erring on the side of caution for safety and that's not a bad thing.
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The primary safety issue is the runner in the open field getting grabbed from behind and immediately pulled down backward. That's the extent of the foul at the NFL and NCAA level ...
Then why do those codes exempt the HC in the tackle box? Isn't it just as dangerous there as it is in the open field?
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Then why do those codes exempt the HC in the tackle box? Isn't it just as dangerous there as it is in the open field?
In most cases, no, as the runner doesn't have the forward momentum that he usually does when running wide.
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As to the receiver having to land inbounds to complete a catch, this does not preclude the receiver being wraped and then carried OOB. Forward progress could still be in play.
JG, that's not how I read the press release:
Another significant change next season will be a new interpretation of a legal catch. A receiver now will be required to establish possession of the ball and contact the ground inbounds while maintaining possession – regardless of the opponent’s action.
“In previous years, the covering official could have ruled that an airborne player attempting to catch the ball would have come down inbounds, but was prevented from doing so because of contact by the opponent,” said Bob Colgate, NFHS director of sports and sports medicine and liaison to the Football Rules Committee. “Now, the player must establish possession and contact the ground inbounds for a legal catch.”
Sounds to me like he's got to get down to the ground, and we don't have to worry about forceouts anymore.
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Then why do those codes exempt the HC in the tackle box? Isn't it just as dangerous there as it is in the open field?
AB is right. The basis for the HC rule was Roy Williams of the Cowboys catching runners from behind in full stride and pulling them backward with all his weight off the ground. That's what the NFL rule was designed to prevent and I don't believe it has wavered much. The runner in "tackle box" is not as exposed as the guy running full stride which is why that is an exception to the NCAA rule (and probably the NFL rule). This isn't like the face mask rule where any grasping and twisting is dangerous.
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JG, that's not how I read the press release:
Sounds to me like he's got to get down to the ground, and we don't have to worry about forceouts anymore.
If this rule is done similar to the NCAA rule, the philosophy is the only way you would consider this a catch is if the defender grabbed the receiver, carried him out of bounds, and then dropped him. It would have to be extremely obvious and you rarely see it. I would expect a similar philosophy in HS but again you would rarely see it.
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My recollection of the impetus behind the horsecollar foul was the sudden snapping back causing damage to the knees of the runner.
Hopefully the interpretation of the forced out receiver will indicate that forward progress isn't a factor. Press releases rarely cite the whole wording of the rule. On its face, I like it. Why award the offense a reception and gain of yardage after a good defensive play?
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Hopefully the interpretation of the forced out receiver will indicate that forward progress isn't a factor. Press releases rarely cite the whole wording of the rule. On its face, I like it. Why award the offense a reception and gain of yardage after a good defensive play?
I agree, HL. It will be very interesting to see the verbiage on this one.
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http://youtu.be/nnlfuCEuIIA
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The helmet rule change is needless, pointless, and cumbersome. This will slow down the game and put an unnecessary burden on the officials. The Fed must see it as a safety rule, so we’re stuck with it, but I can see it being a major problem with coaches.
I like the force out change, though it doesn’t say what happens with players that are carried out of bounds. Hopefully this rule is going to be made very clear.
I like the blocking below the waist change. Getting the hands down doesn't necessarily protect the player.
The free kick blocking change is interesting. I think officials will have some trouble understand what is and isn’t a foul. I think they will also be reluctant to call it. We’ll see about that.
No more play cards on the belt. Probably a good change.
I’ve never seen grasping the mouthpiece, but I guess it could happen.
I can’t wait to see the horse collar rule. I hope this one is clear. I’ve never seen as many flags waved off as I have for horse collars.
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The helmet rule change is needless, pointless, and cumbersome. This will slow down the game and put and put an unnecessary burden on the officials. The Fed must see it as a safety rule, so we’re stuck with it, but I can see it being a major problem with coaches.
I don't think its targeted at the coaches or officials, its for the players who for some reason think its cool to play with an improper inflated helmet or loose chin strap and then have their lid rolling around all game. I'm not sure how it will slow the game down, if it happens you send him off for a play, simple substitution.
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The helmet rule change is needless, pointless, and cumbersome. This will slow down the game and put and put an unnecessary burden on the officials.
It seems to have had the opposite effect in Arizona last year and helped curtail what was a large problem of too many helmets coming off during play. I'm glad both the Fed and NCAA are coming out with this rule at the same time.
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I don't think its targeted at the coaches or officials, its for the players who for some reason think its cool to play with an improper inflated helmet or loose chin strap and then have their lid rolling around all game. I'm not sure how it will slow the game down, if it happens you send him off for a play, simple substitution.
I'm pretty sure we're going to have to stop the clock to send off the players that lose helmets, even far from the ball. This will lead to added stoppages and slow the game.
I see why you say it's targeted at the players. I think it's about the coaches getting the helmets to fit properly. But we're going to be the ones stuck with angry coaches when their players have to leave the game for helmets coming off.
A related question: What happens if a player takes his own helmet off for some reason during the play? Does he have to sit?
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But we're going to be the ones stuck with angry coaches when their players have to leave the game for helmets coming off.
Tough tits, Tony.
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Tough tits, Tony.
lol, you guys are probably right. Stopping the game for a helmet coming off takes less time than stopping the game for an injury.
Any word on black bean bags for HS football?
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After the first week of the season as soon as a helmet came off during the play the player would pick it up and race towards the sideline. Most times you didn't even have to tell the players than knew the rule.
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After the first week of the season as soon as a helmet came off during the play the player would pick it up and race towards the sideline. Most times you didn't even have to tell the players than knew the rule.
I assume you also saw a significant reduction in the number of helmets popping off correct? This is like the live ball UNS in NCAA last year. The intent of the rule is to prevent the unwanted act from happening in the first place. Now that there is a deterrent the coaches will make sure their player are aware of the rule. At least for a couple years.
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The helmet rule will reinforce proper fitting of the helmet. Don't want your star RB coming out at an I opportune moment? Make sure his helmet fits like it should.
NC was one state collecting incident data each game for the NFHS last season. Our state supervisor said the totals were shocking .
I don't see it being any more problematic or time consuming than the blood rule used to be. Send 'em off, get another.
Coaches didn't much care for the restricted area either but they learned to adapt after the initial fussiness.
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The helmet rule will reinforce proper fitting of the helmet. Don't want your star RB coming out at an I opportune moment? Make sure his helmet fits like it should.
Now I hope we do not have to listen to the asst coach yelling "face mask" on every play like he yells "holding" when the other team has the ball.
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Now I hope we do not have to listen to the asst coach yelling "face mask" on every play like he yells "holding" when the other team has the ball.
No, now we'll be yelling "Mouthpiece!" based on grabbing that now being a foul.
Really, when have you ever seen anyone grab a mouthpiece? Is this a rule we really needed?
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Any word on black bean bags for HS football?
You're kidding, right? Might as well make 'em houndstooth & please everybody. hEaDbAnG
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You're kidding, right? Might as well make 'em houndstooth & please everybody. hEaDbAnG
Not Georgia, Auburn or Tennessee fans!
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Not sure why the 'helmet coming off' issue has a few thinking there are drawbacks.
Plain & simple: helmet comes off, the player is off the field for a play. - and perhaps the player and/or coach will ensure the helmet is properly fitted going forward. You know, personal responsibility and all.
This will make me sound like my dad, but 'back in my day' (I graduated from HS in the late '80's) I don't rememeber any helmet coming off during a game or practice during my 4 yrs in HS.
The helmets would be the old Riddell & the Bike. Each of which had 4-point chin straps.
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Really, when have you ever seen anyone grab a mouthpiece?
Considering I see almost no players using a mouthpiece attached with the strap, I don't forsee calling it (Knocking furiously on wood).
As for the loose helmets, I think they fall into two categories- 1) kids just don't want them tight, and 2) some of these "hair-do's" won't work with a properly fitted helmet.
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I see why you say it's targeted at the players. I think it's about the coaches getting the helmets to fit properly. But we're going to be the ones stuck with angry coaches when their players have to leave the game for helmets coming off.
Hey, that's why we get paid the big bucks.
The helmet rule will reinforce proper fitting of the helmet. Don't want your star RB coming out at an I opportune moment? Make sure his helmet fits like it should.
And there's the answer for the angry coaches, right there! ^good
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The new helmet rule does not appear to be a problem to officiate. It is the coaches responsibility to make sure the helmets are fitted properly for safety reasons and the rule clearly supports us with an enforcement remedy. If we are concerned about a little butt chewing because of this rule, we really need to rethink why we are on the field to begin with.
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The new helmet rule is unnecessary. Frist, I've seen almost no helmets come off during play in 15 years officiating. Second, the rule that mandates use of 4 point chin straps pretty much means they won't come off. Third, there is another rule that removes players with apparent head injuries already. I just don't see the need.
Last, can a properly fitted helmet come off without another foul being called? If so, you must remove a player for no reason, safety or otherwise.
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On another note.... Suppose a receiver goes airborne and catches a pass 3 yards from the sideline, and before returning to the ground to complete the catch, a defender holds him up, carries him to the sideline, and drops him out of bounds. Unlikely but possible.
Is there rule support to rule this a catch and forward progress stopped inbounds? Is it incomplete?
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Not Georgia, Auburn or Tennessee fans!
Ain't gonna please them, whatever you do!
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On another note.... Suppose a receiver goes airborne and catches a pass 3 yards from the sideline, and before returning to the ground to complete the catch, a defender holds him up, carries him to the sideline, and drops him out of bounds. Unlikely but possible.
Is there rule support to rule this a catch and forward progress stopped inbounds? Is it incomplete?
He is out of bounds... to complete a catch and to have possession he must have touched the ground inbounds.
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On another note.... Suppose a receiver goes airborne and catches a pass 3 yards from the sideline, and before returning to the ground to complete the catch, a defender holds him up, carries him to the sideline, and drops him out of bounds. Unlikely but possible.
Is there rule support to rule this a catch and forward progress stopped inbounds? Is it incomplete?
There is in NCAA, I would think there would be in NFHS as well but we'll see how it washes out.
Consider yourself fortunate regarding helmets, there have been a staggering number coming off in numerous parts of the country. Even with the chinstrap completely buckled, if the helmet is not fitted or worn properly, it can come off quite easily.
I suspect this is due to a change in helmet design because when I played a little over 10 years ago, it was nearly impossible for my helmet to just fall off. It felt like I was going to rip my ears off everytime I took it off.
The rule was used last year in Arizona and they showed an appreciable decline in helmets coming off due to the rule.
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No, now we'll be yelling "Mouthpiece!" based on grabbing that now being a foul.
Really, when have you ever seen anyone grab a mouthpiece? Is this a rule we really needed?
This is the level we push rule makers to, by paying too much attention to those who insist that every "gnats eyelash" be accounted for in each rule. Two questions; 1. Who is to say that a mouthpiece, normally attached to a helmet's facemask doesn't become part of that facemask? 2. More importantly, why is ANYBODY, other than a team's Head Coach, paying attention to anything shouted from a sideline, that falls short of deserving a flag?
There are only 2 answers to any question about why something observed didn't (or for the reverse did) draw a flag, and the result of the answer to both questions is exactly the same. The answers are; 1. No, I didn't see what you think you saw, or, Yes, I did see exactly what you saw, and I decided it didn't merit a penalty.
Either way, nothing changes. If the comment was respectfully raised, a civil response may be in order. If the comment wasn't raised respectfully, that's a different matter.
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The new helmet rule is unnecessary. Frist, I've seen almost no helmets come off during play in 15 years officiating. Second, the rule that mandates use of 4 point chin straps pretty much means they won't come off. Third, there is another rule that removes players with apparent head injuries already. I just don't see the need.
Last, can a properly fitted helmet come off without another foul being called? If so, you must remove a player for no reason, safety or otherwise.
In Arizona they tracked 670 incidents(Varsity games only) where helmets came off during the action of play of all those only 27 times did it come off because of a penalty.
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In Arizona they tracked 670 incidents(Varsity games only) where helmets came off during the action of play of all those only 27 times did it come off because of a penalty.
I am amazed. After 20 years I can recall on one hand how many times I have seen a helmet come off a player during the down. I have been wondering what I have/will see more of- hurdling, helmets coming off, or a FG attempt after a fair catch...
And my experience is all in the Chicago metropolitan area, close to 1,000 games at all levels from youth to small college. It just hasn't happened when I am on the field! ???
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Last, can a properly fitted helmet come off without another foul being called? If so, you must remove a player for no reason, safety or otherwise.
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In Arizona they tracked 670 incidents(Varsity games only) where helmets came off during the action of play of all those only 27 times did it come off because of a penalty.
I recognize that we haven't yet seen Case Book interpretations yet, and it's "kind of been talked around" on the board; BUT if a helmet is pulled off (facemask/helmet opening/etc) by an opponent, does the player who lost the helmet have to come out for a play?
I looked at what the FED put out but couldn't find anything. Did I miss something?
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Unless they change the wording of the proposed new rule, a player only has to come out if his helmet comes off due to action not directly attributable to being the result of an opponent's foul. If his helmet is pulled off by an opposing player, he does not have to leave the game.
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Over the last 3-4 years I had noticed more incidents of helmets coming off both at the HS and college level. Last year we had to track the number of helmets coming off and include it in our game report. I don't remember hearing a total number but we probably averaged at least 2 or 3 per game with some having more. We didn't track it in HS but the numbers were about the same. Apparently some parts of the country fit their players' helmets better.
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I had to track it in UGA games, and we averaged just short of 4 between the two teams.
I tracked our HS games last year, and it was between 1 and 2 per game. Thankfully, I don't think any of those were our kids. Helmet fitting is something about which we are diligent, to the point of the kids being uncomfortable. I got mad at the kids at special teams practice one day, for them not being ready to run on the field. I made every player put on and buckle their helmet and not take it off for 40 minutes. Even the trainers told me not to do that again, I was causing too many headaches.
Helmets should require two hands to remove, by grabbing the edge near the jaw and pulling outward. And yes, it should be uncomfortably tight. The days of putting it on when you leave the locker room and keeping it on all of practice are gone. If you can do that, it's not tight enough.
But I can't stand seeing college players picking up their helmets and simply dropping it back on their heads, flipping it on with one hand. That's a concussion just waiting to happen.
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Helmets should require two hands to remove, by grabbing the edge near the jaw and pulling outward. And yes, it should be uncomfortably tight. The days of putting it on when you leave the locker room and keeping it on all of practice are gone. If you can do that, it's not tight enough.
That is exactly what we did in high school. Coach told us the helmet was our best friend. My senior year was the 1972 season and we did not have the air bladder helmets, just the padded webing, but we very rarely took them off.
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The new helmet rule is unnecessary. Frist, I've seen almost no helmets come off during play in 15 years officiating. Second, the rule that mandates use of 4 point chin straps pretty much means they won't come off. Third, there is another rule that removes players with apparent head injuries already. I just don't see the need.
Last, can a properly fitted helmet come off without another foul being called? If so, you must remove a player for no reason, safety or otherwise.
Ricky things must be different where you work. Last season, on average I would say we had three helmets come off a game. Not sure what the difference between where you work and here in California. Also, if you watched any college ball this year you would have seen it happen every game.
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Kentucky prep football, top to bottom, is not competitive with many other states. With other highly competitive football states near by, Kentucky coaches are working very hard to catch up, especially with Ohio in our area. I think highly of many coaches in NKY that really study the rules as well as football techniques and game planning. We do not have many problems that have been addressed in the rules recently, such as sidelines, player equipment and uniforms. Kids will be kids and try to emulate college and pro players, but we look out for that kind of stuff and report our findings to coaches. They are accomodating to us and the rules.
I always thought helmets coming off was due mostly to chinstraps hanging. We enforce that here, and see very few helmets come off. If improper fitting is the real reason, our coaches must be pretty good there as well.
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If improper fitting is the real reason, our coaches must be pretty good there as well.
Good for them!
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Unless they change the wording of the proposed new rule, a player only has to come out if his helmet comes off due to action not directly attributable to being the result of an opponent's foul. If his helmet is pulled off by an opposing player, he does not have to leave the game.
Thanks jg. I went back and re-read the NFHS bulletin and, duh..., there it was, in the preceding paragraph! hEaDbAnG
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I honestly did not think we had an issue in Arizona...really thought our test was a waste of time...until you watch for it. Then it jumps at you. Helmets are coming off. We saw a dramatic decrease as the season went on... It is our sincere hope we have very few helmet offs next year and from the feedback we are getting from our coaches, I think they will be spending more time on properly fitting helmets...Maybe spending that extra time at the end of the day will not only reduce the number of helmet offs but help reduce the concussion count. We can only hope.
Don
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With today's helmets, it's a three part process. First, you need to find a shell that fits the kid the best, but there are only three different size shells (except for special orders). Then you have to insert the internal pads (which come in numerous sizes) in order to customize that fit.
But a MAJOR part, that often gets forgotten, is that the kid has to make sure he checks the air in the bladder every day. Almost every helmet needs more air added at least once a week. Some of these kids think that once they get the helmet fitted in July, it's good for the season.
We tell the kids they need to check their helmets DAILY, and we still remind them at least twice a week (after all, they are forgetful teenagers).
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...(after all, they are forgetful teenagers).
Redundant.
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With today's helmets, it's a three part process. First, you need to find a shell that fits the kid the best, but there are only three different size shells (except for special orders). Then you have to insert the internal pads (which come in numerous sizes) in order to customize that fit.
But a MAJOR part, that often gets forgotten, is that the kid has to make sure he checks the air in the bladder every day. Almost every helmet needs more air added at least once a week. Some of these kids think that once they get the helmet fitted in July, it's good for the season.
We tell the kids they need to check their helmets DAILY, and we still remind them at least twice a week (after all, they are forgetful teenagers).
When I was in HS, we rarely checked the air in the helmets. I think I would check it again later in the year if I found a pump. Now some of you might say that it explains some of my posts. hEaDbAnG
Head trauma, concussion issues, etc weren't a big deal back then like they are now. Also, I think it falls on the coach. You clearly do a good job with this. I doubt most coaches in my area do.
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"When I was in HS, we rarely checked the air in the helmets."
When I was in HS, the only air in our helments we had was what was whistling through our ears.
And, no, Rulesman, I couldn't fold it up and put in my pocket when we were through with practice!
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"When I was in HS, we rarely checked the air in the helmets."
When I was in HS, the only air in our helments we had was what was whistling through our ears.
And, no, Rulesman, I couldn't fold it up and put in my pocket when we were through with practice!
nAnA